Is it possible for someone to tell me (WITHOUT DEBATE!)...

[WIcruizer]

The Roe v Wade decision took a lot of mental gymnastics for the Justices to arrive at the opinion they did. I actually have a relative who works specializes in constitutional law. He is very Pro-Choice, but it is his opinion that the Roe v Wade decision was contrived, and used a very loose translation of the Constitution. But he also added that since it is now law, it is precedent making it difficult to change.

But he said his friends in the D.C. area are well aware Roe v Wade sits on shaky legal ground, and it's the reason Pro-Choice and Pro-Life advocates alike are so interested in Supreme Court nominees.

 

[sodaseller]

Of course, there are lots of unknowns. Since it would take a Supreme Court reversal of sorts, the first question is would they actually state that abortion is unconstitutional, or would they simply put the decision back into the hands of the states.

.

The latter is more likely

 

[sodaseller]

The Roe v Wade decision took a lot of mental gymnastics for the Justices to arrive at the opinion they did. I actually have a relative who works specializes in constitutional law. He is very Pro-Choice, but it is his opinion that the Roe v Wade decision was contrived, and used a very loose translation of the Constitution. But he also added that since it is now law, it is precedent making it difficult to change.

But he said his friends in the D.C. area are well aware Roe v Wade sits on shaky legal ground, and it's the reason Pro-Choice and Pro-Life advocates alike are so interested in Supreme Court nominees.

I disagree that the decision is as constitutionally suspect as suggested, and I say that as someone that ends up in the pro-Life side in most instances, albeit with some agonizing.

 

[eclectics]

You know this for a fact, then? I assume you do, since you make the absolute statement "are" rather than "might be" or "could be." So I assume you have talked to every single militant anti-abortionist, then.

I am STRONGLY opposed to abortion, for any reason at all. Not only for religious reasons (though they do play a big part), but also just for moral reasons. Militant? Maybe, but probably not considered that. But we use birth control, b/c it has nothing to do with an abortion. It in fact PREVENTS unwanted pregnancies, so if you're not wanting a baby right now, chances are you won't get pregnant! You want to reduce abortions? Get more women to use birth control effectively, to preven the pregnancy BEFORE it happens, rather than "fix the problem" AFTER it happens.

As long as the Catholic Church, a lot of Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Churches, and Orthodox Jews (I think?) oppose even mentioning birth control, much less educating our young people on how to use them properly, the number of unwanted teenage pregnancies will sadly stay about the same. Teaching abstainence to a teenager with healthy hormones is hogwash, imho. It's a nice cozy ambition but it's not going to work on the majority of teens. Better to teach them how to avoid pregnancy in the first place. And since I'll probably be flamed anyway, I'll go one further and say give High School kids free condoms. You'll be amazed how fast the pregnancy rate drops.

 

[hokiefan33]

As long as the Catholic Church, a lot of Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Churches, and Orthodox Jews (I think?) oppose even mentioning birth control, much less educating our young people on how to use them properly, the number of unwanted teenage pregnancies will sadly stay about the same. Teaching abstainence to a teenager with healthy hormones is hogwash, imho. It's a nice cozy ambition but it's not going to work on the majority of teens. Better to teach them how to avoid pregnancy in the first place. And since I'll probably be flamed anyway, I'll go one further and say give High School kids free condoms. You'll be amazed how fast the pregnancy rate drops.

Glad to see you have it all figured out. I don't know the Catholic or Jewish stance on BCPs, so I can't speak to those, but would you mind telling me which churches make up "a lot of Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Churches"? I'd be curious to know who you think those churches are. As a member of the SBC (who doesn't speak out against BCPs, and we are I believe the largest EP denomination in the US), I'm curious as to who you think these churches are, and where you get your info.

As to "teaching abstinence to a teenager with healthy hormones" being "hogwash", as you put it, how do you back that up? What about the millions of teenage girls who DON'T get pregnant b/c they DO abstain from sex? Teaching them abstinence IS teaching them "how to avoid pregnancy in the first place", don't you think??

As to giving HS kids free condoms, how do you know this will make the pregnancy rate drop "fast"? This just gives them a license to have sex with anyone, with the hopes that if they use the condom right, or at all, they won't get pregnant. How many teenagers are going to use it right, or at all, every single time?

 

[JennyMominRI]

As long as the Catholic Church, a lot of Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Churches, and Orthodox Jews (I think?) oppose even mentioning birth control, much less educating our young people on how to use them properly, the number of unwanted teenage pregnancies will sadly stay about the same..

Orthodox Jews allow BC

Jewish Law prohibits men from destroying or wasting seed.

Hormonal forms of birth control, such as pills, patches, injections and implants, are acceptable.

In contrast, contraceptive methods such as coitus interruptus, condoms and vasectomy, that destroy or block the passage of seed, are forbidden by most orthodox rabbinic authorities.
The use of condoms, however, may be acceptable if it is protecting against the spread of an incurable sexually transmitted disease

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

As long as the Catholic Church, a lot of Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Churches, and Orthodox Jews (I think?) oppose even mentioning birth control, much less educating our young people on how to use them properly, the number of unwanted teenage pregnancies will sadly stay about the same. Teaching abstainence to a teenager with healthy hormones is hogwash, imho. It's a nice cozy ambition but it's not going to work on the majority of teens. Better to teach them how to avoid pregnancy in the first place. And since I'll probably be flamed anyway, I'll go one further and say give High School kids free condoms. You'll be amazed how fast the pregnancy rate drops.

I had no idea that evangelical Protestant Churches opposed birth control. There IS, among Protestants, opposition to sex outside of marriage. Regarding abstinence, I would like to think that human beings are more than a trembling mass of hormones that must be satiated.


<---- returns to

 

[Arielle]

As to "teaching abstinence to a teenager with healthy hormones" being "hogwash", as you put it, how do you back that up? What about the millions of teenage girls who DON'T get pregnant b/c they DO abstain from sex? Teaching them abstinence IS teaching them "how to avoid pregnancy in the first place", don't you think??

I agree with trying to teach abstinence but for some teenagers they just aren't going to listen to that. Sorry but thats the honest truth. In my way of thinking, if handing out free condems prevents ONE unwanted pregnancy or ONE STD then its 200% worth it.

Oh and just to say I've been the women who was told she would die if she continued the pregnancy. My husband and I together chose to end it. There was no IF involved. If I continued the pregnancy I WOULD DIE and the child would die anyway. So until you are put in that situation (which I pray to God none of you ever are) please don't say what you would or wouldn't do. My husband and I are very active Christians and I never once have questioned what we had to do. I had young children at home who needed their mother. The Drs. didn't give me a slight chance at survival he gave me a ZERO chance of survival.

 

[JennyMominRI]

IOh and just to say I've been the women who was told she would die if she continued the pregnancy. My husband and I together chose to end it. There was no IF involved. If I continued the pregnancy I WOULD DIE and the child would die anyway. So until you are put in that situation (which I pray to God none of you ever are) please don't say what you would or wouldn't do. My husband and I are very active Christians and I never once have questioned what we had to do. I had young children at home who needed their mother. The Drs. didn't give me a slight chance at survival he gave me a ZERO chance of survival.

I've been there myself,although It was possible that I might have survived but had a debilitating stroke.. It was no question for me either.I have 4 living children

 

[eclectics]

I had no idea that evangelical Protestant Churches opposed birth control. There IS, among Protestants, opposition to sex outside of marriage. Regarding abstinence, I would like to think that human beings are more than a trembling mass of hormones that must be satiated.


<---- returns to

I suppose my sentence was a bit obtuse. I meant mentioning and teaching birth control to our teens, who have a large part of the unwanted pregnancies. I realize Protestants have no problem with birth control within marriage. I do believe many do not applaud teaching birth control to our youth in the schoolroom setting.

 

[hokiefan33]

I agree with trying to teach abstinence but for some teenagers they just aren't going to listen to that. Sorry but thats the honest truth. In my way of thinking, if handing out free condems prevents ONE unwanted pregnancy or ONE STD then its 200% worth it.

Oh and just to say I've been the women who was told she would die if she continued the pregnancy. My husband and I together chose to end it. There was no IF involved. If I continued the pregnancy I WOULD DIE and the child would die anyway. So until you are put in that situation (which I pray to God none of you ever are) please don't say what you would or wouldn't do. My husband and I are very active Christians and I never once have questioned what we had to do. I had young children at home who needed their mother. The Drs. didn't give me a slight chance at survival he gave me a ZERO chance of survival.

I never said all teens would listen to it, just let's give it a shot before we start handing out condoms everywhere.

I'm sorry for the situation you were in and the decision you had to make. I'm sure that in situations like that, everyone who finds themself in similar circumstances has a slightly different situation than anyone else, so nobody's situation is exactly the same. Remember, when I said what I did about my wife and I not being able to terminate such a pregnancy, I clearly said it was just my opinion. If it's not yours, for whatever reason you have, that's fine. We CAN say what we would do in that situation, b/c we know what we would do and have talked about it. That doesn't demean or discount your decision in any way, just makes it different than the one we would make.

 

[scubamouse]

Jewish Law prohibits men from destroying or wasting seed.

ok all i can think of is the 'monty python meaning of life' movie ... sing it with me now

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

http://www.taboo-breaker.org/religion/sperm.htm

 

[JennyMominRI]

ok all i can think of is the 'monty python meaning of life' movie ... sing it with me now

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

http://www.taboo-breaker.org/religion/sperm.htm

NObody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

[scubamouse]

NObody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

it's just a flesh wound

 

[JennyMominRI]

it's just a flesh wound

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK
I sleep all night and I work all day.

Chorus:
He's a lumberjack and he's OK
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shopping and have buttered scones for tea

Mounties:
He cut down trees, he eat his lunch
He go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he go shopping and has buttered scones for tea.

Chorus:
He's a lumberjack and he's OK
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing and hang around in bars.

Mounties:
He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing and hangs around in bars?!

Chorus:
He's a lumberjack and he's OK
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I wear high heels
Suspenders and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie, just like my dear papa!

Mounties:
He cuts down trees, he wears high heels?!
Suspenders...and a bra?!

...He's a lumberjack and he's OK
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

...He's/I'm a lumberjack and he's/I'm OK
He/I sleep all night and he/I work all day.

 

[eclectics]

Glad to see you have it all figured out. I don't know the Catholic or Jewish stance on BCPs, so I can't speak to those, but would you mind telling me which churches make up "a lot of Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Churches"? I'd be curious to know who you think those churches are. As a member of the SBC (who doesn't speak out against BCPs, and we are I believe the largest EP denomination in the US), I'm curious as to who you think these churches are, and where you get your info.

As to "teaching abstinence to a teenager with healthy hormones" being "hogwash", as you put it, how do you back that up? What about the millions of teenage girls who DON'T get pregnant b/c they DO abstain from sex? Teaching them abstinence IS teaching them "how to avoid pregnancy in the first place", don't you think??

As to giving HS kids free condoms, how do you know this will make the pregnancy rate drop "fast"? This just gives them a license to have sex with anyone, with the hopes that if they use the condom right, or at all, they won't get pregnant. How many teenagers are going to use it right, or at all, every single time?

First of all I was agreeing with YOUR statement that said "get women to use birth control more effectively". That starts with education and it should start when the woman has decided she is ready to have sex. That usually (but not always) happens around the High School years. As I said to another poster, my point was that I don't believe Evangelicals are thrilled about teaching their youth how to effectively use birth control. If you know of one Southern Baptist congregation that encourages teens to get educated on the proper use of a condom, and the various female methods including the pill etc., I'd love to hear about it. That was the point I was trying to make. If you think abstainence is working just fine along with Nancy Reagan's Just Say No campaign, great. I don't happen to believe either one is making much of a dent in it's goals. And as to the "millions" who don't get pregnant because they were taught abstainence rather than being girls who decide to wait because that just happens to be their own unbiased choice, I'd like to see your stats on that one. Finally, if kids are allowed to be taught to use birth control correctly and taught the consequences of not doing so, I think most are smart enough to get the hang of it!

 

[scubamouse]

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK
I sleep all night and I work all day.

We used to refer to DS5 (when he was DS2) as the minister of silly walks

And to think it looks like they still want to have at this discussion despite our efforts to be silly thread killers.

would you care for a wafer thin mint?

 

[hokiefan33]

First of all I was agreeing with YOUR statement that said "get women to use birth control more effectively". That starts with education and it should start when the woman has decided she is ready to have sex. That usually (but not always) happens around the High School years. As I said to another poster, my point was that I don't believe Evangelicals are thrilled about teaching their youth how to effectively use birth control. If you know of one Southern Baptist congregation that encourages teens to get educated on the proper use of a condom, and the various female methods including the pill etc., I'd love to hear about it.

If that is what you meant, I misunderstood your point. The way it was originally worded, it sounded to me as if you meant that we don't believe in birth control, which is clearly not the case. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

If you think abstainence is working just fine along with Nancy Reagan's Just Say No campaign, great. I don't happen to believe either one is making much of a dent in it's goals.

BTW, it's "abstinence", not "abstainence." Anyhow, my point isn't that it's working fine, let's not do anything else, my point is that this is what we should be teaching them. The fact that it's not working well doesn't mean it's not getting taught well, it means that a lot of girls/women are choosing to ignore it and end up getting themselves in trouble.

And as to the "millions" who don't get pregnant because they were taught abstainence rather than being girls who decide to wait because that just happens to be their own unbiased choice, I'd like to see your stats on that one. Finally, if kids are allowed to be taught to use birth control correctly and taught the consequences of not doing so, I think most are smart enough to get the hang of it![/QUOTE]
Isn't abstinence, by definition, deciding to wait? What's the difference in WHY they decide to wait? If they wait, they're abstaining, nonetheless, right? As to your last point, I think most kids are smart enough to know the consequences of "not doing so" (using condoms correctly), but are at the same time not smart enough to apply what they know.

 

[cardaway]

If you know of one Southern Baptist congregation that encourages teens to get educated on the proper use of a condom, and the various female methods including the pill etc., I'd love to hear about it. That was the point I was trying to make.

And a good point it was. Intentionally discouraging any talk of B/C isn't much different than banning it. I would be willing to bet it's tough to get around those parts as well.

 

[sodaseller]

The fact that it's not working well doesn't mean it's not getting taught well, it means that a lot of girls/women are choosing to ignore it and end up getting themselves in trouble.

Interesting