Is it possible for someone to tell me (WITHOUT DEBATE!)...

[eclectics]

If that is what you meant, I misunderstood your point. The way it was originally worded, it sounded to me as if you meant that we don't believe in birth control, which is clearly not the case. Sorry for that misunderstanding.


BTW, it's "abstinence", not "abstainence." Anyhow, my point isn't that it's working fine, let's not do anything else, my point is that this is what we should be teaching them. The fact that it's not working well doesn't mean it's not getting taught well, it means that a lot of girls/women are choosing to ignore it and end up getting themselves in trouble.

And as to the "millions" who don't get pregnant because they were taught abstainence rather than being girls who decide to wait because that just happens to be their own unbiased choice, I'd like to see your stats on that one. Finally, if kids are allowed to be taught to use birth control correctly and taught the consequences of not doing so, I think most are smart enough to get the hang of it!

Isn't abstinence, by definition, deciding to wait? What's the difference in WHY they decide to wait? If they wait, they're abstaining, nonetheless, right? As to your last point, I think most kids are smart enough to know the consequences of "not doing so" (using condoms correctly), but are at the same time not smart enough to apply what they know.[/QUOTE]



Now it's my turn. I don't think I understand your point now. Sorry. What exactly do you think should be taught to our kids along with abstinence? (thanks for the spelling lesson btw It bothers me sometimes also, although I've never actually corrected someone). My last point was that I don't believe a girl that decides to wait necessarily does so because she was "taught" to. Her decision was probably already made in her own mind.

 

[Arielle]

Hokiefan I'm just amazed that anyone could say Yes let my wife AND baby die. Thats what we were told. I would die, the baby would die anyway. Yes God is all powerful and he does perform miracles. That doesn't mean I'm going to go put myself in front of a train. Do you have any children at home?

I have faith in my God and I know miracles do happen but it amazes me that anyone can honestly say let my wife and baby die. Wow! I seriously applaud you and I don't at all mean that sarcastically, I mean it 100 percent.

Just our of curiosity do you feel the same way about other treatments like cancer or any other illness? Do you feel that nothing should be done that God's miracles can save you or your family? I know that HE can do it and that it is possible but in my case the poison around the baby is what would kill me. In a sense the baby would have killed me just like cancer, aids or any other illness. There was no chance of survival for either. So if you or your wife came down with cancer would you not take treatments? Its really the same situation. Yes the baby was a life but it was going to die and kill me as well.

If you can answer honestly that you trust in God 100 Percent for anything like that, anything that would kill you without treatment then I do applaud you for your faith. I mean that from the bottom of my heart as well.

 

[hokiefan33]

Interesting

Well, you know, with so many boys/men getting pregnant... wait, what's that? Boys don't get pregnant? I'm not saying they're not responsible, but it is the girl/woman who does become pregnant, not the boy/man.

 

[hokiefan33]

Now it's my turn. I don't think I understand your point now. Sorry. What exactly do you think should be taught to our kids along with abstinence? (thanks for the spelling lesson btw It bothers me sometimes also, although I've never actually corrected someone). My last point was that I don't believe a girl that decides to wait necessarily does so because she was "taught" to. Her decision was probably already made in her own mind.

I don't anything else "needs" to be taught besides abstinence. It all comes down to choices. If everyone made perfect choices for their life, nobody would ever have any problems. But people make imperfect choices everyday, and they lead to problems in life. Give them abstinence as their best choice, and tell them what happens if they aren't. Then let them make their choices. Giving them birth control options so young only encourages them to be promiscuous but careful, it doesn't keep them from having sex, which is the underlying cause (to the best of my knowledge) of pregnancy. I could care less WHY they decide to wait, just so they do. Will I teach birth control to my daughters? Yep, I sure will - I'll call it abstinence.

 

[VSL]

Hokiefan I'm just amazed that anyone could say Yes let my wife AND baby die. Thats what we were told. I would die, the baby would die anyway. Yes God is all powerful and he does perform miracles. That doesn't mean I'm going to go put myself in front of a train. Do you have any children at home?

I have faith in my God and I know miracles do happen but it amazes me that anyone can honestly say let my wife and baby die. Wow! I seriously applaud you and I don't at all mean that sarcastically, I mean it 100 percent.

Just our of curiosity do you feel the same way about other treatments like cancer or any other illness? Do you feel that nothing should be done that God's miracles can save you or your family? I know that HE can do it and that it is possible but in my case the poison around the baby is what would kill me. In a sense the baby would have killed me just like cancer, aids or any other illness. There was no chance of survival for either. So if you or your wife came down with cancer would you not take treatments? Its really the same situation. Yes the baby was a life but it was going to die and kill me as well.

If you can answer honestly that you trust in God 100 Percent for anything like that, anything that would kill you without treatment then I do applaud you for your faith. I mean that from the bottom of my heart as well.

I was actually wondering whether the whole 'God helps those who help themselves' thing applies in this situation, too.
Surely surgery to save your life is kinda like helping yourself?

 

[eclectics]

I don't anything else "needs" to be taught besides abstinence. It all comes down to choices. If everyone made perfect choices for their life, nobody would ever have any problems. But people make imperfect choices everyday, and they lead to problems in life. Give them abstinence as their best choice, and tell them what happens if they aren't. Then let them make their choices. Giving them birth control options so young only encourages them to be promiscuous but careful, it doesn't keep them from having sex, which is the underlying cause (to the best of my knowledge) of pregnancy. I could care less WHY they decide to wait, just so they do. Will I teach birth control to my daughters? Yep, I sure will - I'll call it abstinence.

Thanks for clarifing your view. I think we can both agree that unwanted pregnancies are not a good thing. How to reduce their number is where we part company. A continued debate would be pointless.

 

[scubamouse]

Well, you know, with so many boys/men getting pregnant... wait, what's that? Boys don't get pregnant? I'm not saying they're not responsible, but it is the girl/woman who does become pregnant, not the boy/man.

isn't the boy/man equally responsible?

i really believe almost every man deserves at least one daughter (that view pre-dates this thread by at least a decade BTW)

 

[hokiefan33]

Hokiefan I'm just amazed that anyone could say Yes let my wife AND baby die. Thats what we were told. I would die, the baby would die anyway. Yes God is all powerful and he does perform miracles. That doesn't mean I'm going to go put myself in front of a train. Do you have any children at home?

I have faith in my God and I know miracles do happen but it amazes me that anyone can honestly say let my wife and baby die. Wow! I seriously applaud you and I don't at all mean that sarcastically, I mean it 100 percent.

I have a wife and 3 kids. We believe strongly that if God blessed us with a pregnancy, a living being inside of her, we have no right to end that ourselves just to save a life. That is simply how we believe. Would it be difficult? Yes, but well worth it, we believe.

Just our of curiosity do you feel the same way about other treatments like cancer or any other illness? Do you feel that nothing should be done that God's miracles can save you or your family? I know that HE can do it and that it is possible but in my case the poison around the baby is what would kill me. In a sense the baby would have killed me just like cancer, aids or any other illness. There was no chance of survival for either. So if you or your wife came down with cancer would you not take treatments? Its really the same situation. Yes the baby was a life but it was going to die and kill me as well.

I believe these to be 2 different situations. What would have (potentially) killed you was your baby - a living being inside of you. Cancer, AIDS or other illnesses - these are not living beings. God has given us wisdom to seek out medical care and use it to the best of our ability, according to His perfect will. Getting rid of cancer to save yourself only serves to save your life - it would destroy no other life in the process. For us, terminating a pregnancy to save a life would destroy a life in the process. Additionally, we know that God's ways are not our ways. And He alone is all powerful. What if He is just waiting for us to say "Despite what the doctors say, put your faith in Me to have your best interests at heart, knowing that I detest murder"? What are we (meaning myself and my wife) to do? We believe we have no choice but to do that, and not take matters in our own hand, b/c to save her means to kill our baby. Does that mean that God would necessarily save them both? He might, but might not, as well - whatever is His will. But are we obligated to have faith that He can? I believe yes.

 

[tallym]

So hookiefan Just to clarify....If your wife was diagnosed with an eptopic pregnancy, you are her would refuse treatment???

Your wife would die when the tube bursts in EXTREME pain. There would never be a chance of the baby surviving any way.
What if your wife decided to have treatment to save her life What if the love for her children was enough for her to choose life for herslf, would you stand in her way

 

[tallym]

BTW Iam offended and angry that you consider me a "murderer". But I also feel a bit sorry for you.... :

 

[Arielle]

Wow
I honestly applaud your faith! Thats sincere! I pride myself on my faith as well but could you not also say that a living being (the baby) was murdering another human being (me, its mother.) In a way KEEPING a LIFE was DESTROYING TWO LIFES. To us, the parents of other children it was a choice that our children needed thier mother alive and in their life. We would make the same decision again. I guess we won't know the real answer until we get to Heaven. Oh and I am going to Heaven, of that I have not one single doubt.

If our decison was wrong, then God will let me know that. During this time we prayed and prayed and not once did I believe God wanted me to die. I have since prayed to God for forgiveness IF the choice we made was the wrong one. I am not convinced that it was. As I said NO HUMAN will be able to tell me it was wrong. God will. If it was I have no doubt that I have been forgiven and in God's awesome love for me it was forgotten. We are, after all human and full of fault, you, me, everyone. We do slip, we do stumble and we make right and wrong choices.

Our saving grace is his love for us and his opinion that saying a curse word is the same as murder, a sin is a sin no matter the ""MIGHT of the sin that the world sees."" We are still forgiven.

So I wish you Peace and I do pray that NO ONE ever had to go through this horrific circumstance. Right or Wrong I am thankful to My Saviour everyday that I am here with my husband, family and children and that I am able to be a mother and a wife. I'm thankful that God has given me the ability to show him to my children and to see two loving parents who worship him.

 

[Arielle]

Oh and I want to clarify that I do NOT believe I murdered the baby, the baby had no chance of life. It was not growing, it was barely functioning. The baby would NOT have lived.

Yes a devine miracle could have happened but if it had, I tend to think we would be on Oprah and every news page from here to the entire world. The baby simply could not survive. There had NEVER been a baby or mother survive with the problems with this pregnancy. NEVER!

I find it appaling to think that I would be considered a "murderer" in the same since that I would go out on the street and kill someone in cold blood. I did not murder anyone. I chose to save one life when the death of TWO was inevitable.

 

[Arielle]

Oh and even if I did murder someone on the street in COLD BLOOD God would still forgive me if I was honestly sorry and I honestly did repent. Thats His Grace, His Understanding and His LOVE for us. Pretty amazing when you think about it, huh.

 

[tallym]

Arielle...You are wasting your time trying to justify yourself to Hookie.

Remember You are a wonderful mother and a truly loving person...it doen't matter what his weird views are.
In fact I think we should pray for him and his family. Because god forbid one of them ever needs life saving treatment or turns out gay.

 

[tallym]

To contiue with a pregnancy that would KIll you is suicide. Isn't that a sin.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Wow--the thread got beat with the ugly stick again.

Noone's winning any supporters on either side by coming on here and name-calling.

Isn't there some quote out there along the lines of "To be understood, one must first seek to understand". I think I've heard something like that before.

Anyway--the back and forth doesn't make anybody understand anything.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Oh and even if I did murder someone on the street in COLD BLOOD God would still forgive me if I was honestly sorry and I honestly did repent. Thats His Grace, His Understanding and His LOVE for us. Pretty amazing when you think about it, huh.

Arielle..Please don't get upset.You (and I did) what we had to dur beliefs are different from HokieFans..FTR I don't think Hokie views me as a *murderer*
To the poster who said that continuing a pregnancy that could kill you is considered suicide,That's how Jewish law views it..Then again,Judaism doesn't view a fetus in the same way as most Christians.

 

[eclectics]

To contiue with a pregnancy that would KIll you is suicide. Isn't that a sin.

Now that's a very interesting statement. Any theologians out there want to address it?

 

[Arielle]

Thank you all. I have said my peace. Jenny, hugs to you as I know the hell you went through. Thank you all.

I think what Hokie has to remember is that if he has ever in his life uttered a curse word, in God's eyes hes done something just as bad as cold blooded murder. No one is perfect and if he and his wife decided to let her die because of a pregnancy then he looks NO BETTER in God's eyes then the ones of us who made choices for our families.

 

[WIcruizer]

So much for the WITHOUT DEBATE part.