Is Group Punishment Effective?

[JoyG]

IRL, if your partners refused to do their work and said so to their supervisor, they would be fired and thereby removed from the work environment and you would not be punished for their failures. A work environment in which the one good worker is punished for the failures of others is obviously dysfunctional --except, of course, in education.

Sorry, no defense of group projects is going to work with me. I've never seen it be an equitable situation for all involved. Life is not fair, but there is no reason to deliberately set the stage for inequity.

I don't agree about the work situation. There's a whole thread on the Dis right now about working with incompetent people.

Sorry, no condemnation of group projects is going to work with me. I've seen it to be very effective in the classroom. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[JoyG]

The truth is that when a good student realizes they have been set up to fail, then they have ALL motivation taken away from them to even try.
.

I'm not setting up anyone to fail. I'm making people work in groups. If you equate that to setting someone up for failure, I couldn't disagree more. If anything, I'm creating situations where impulsive children might succeed. There are enough combinations of students in my class that no one 'good' child will be stuck with a "yahoo" for very long.

 

[Camicar]

I don't agree about the work situation. There's a whole thread on the Dis right now about working with incompetent people.

Yeah and you know what -- if you find yourself in a situation in which your bosses refuse to deal with incompetents, then you can just quit. But in school, you are screwed.

Sorry, no condemnation of group projects is going to work with me. I've seen it to be very effective in the classroom.

Effective by what measure?
Seriously.

Do you really get 15 year old slacker boys who are counting the days until they can drop out of school to be motivated to do a project on English poetry by sticking them in groups and offering them Twizzlers?

If so and I'm truly not being snarky here, then clearly you should be marketing your approach and making millions bec I have not seen it work and obviously the other posters in this thread have not either.

Let me tell you this -- group project have only been effective in teaching my dd that when she has slackers in her group she might as well do nothing. If that is what the educational system is teaching, then congratulations! You've won -- You've taught my daughter that it's best to not waste her time and just bow to the inevitable failure rather than waste her time trying to excel. Because, seriously, what is the point of busting your butt and getting an A only to have it converted to an F bec the slackers in the group refuse to participate and you are punished for their refusal?

But really, I'm done arguing with you. You are determined to do as you see fit. And I'm determined not to respect your choices which harm my dd.

 

[JoyG]

Effective by what measure?
Seriously.

Seriously? I've been teaching elementary school for 12 years and in that time, I've never have never had a behavior problem that couldn't be solved by switching someone's group. Groups have served on numerous occasions to motivate the reluctant learner, and to teach tolerance and acceptance to the students in my class. That's a pretty remarkable record when you consider I teach in the inner city which is often ripe with many types of behavior problems. I'm considered a very effective classroom manager and often the principal counts on me to handle difficult students. He also trusts me with his best students, specifically putting the child of his best friend in my class.

Do you really get 15 year old slacker boys who are counting the days until they can drop out of school to be motivated to do a project on English poetry by sticking them in groups and offering them Twizzlers?

I don't teach high school. I thought you knew that from my previous posts.

But really, I'm done arguing with you. You are determined to do as you see fit. And I'm determined not to respect your choices which harm my dd.

I didn't think we were arguing but having a conversation.

 

[froglady]

It sounds as if there is not proper supervision if students can eat cake and gatorade in a place where they are not supposed to.
What is up with that?

Is there a "breakdown" in respect and discipline at your school? Could that be what the core of the issue is?

Only one student was actually drinking the gatorade; the other student was apparently putting the cake (in it's box) into her locker to take home, when she dropped it, and just left it.

The students are in their locker bay, so I suspect the student had placed the bottle of gatorade in his backpack earlier in the day, or had it in his locker? The lockers are in a covered walkway, so even if a teacher was nearby, a student could hide it. They are basically outdoors, with classroom doors opening directly outside.

Unless you've lived in a warm area, with a newer school, it's hard to explain.

Compared to what goes on during the school day elsewhere, I suspect these kids are better behaved than most. This was considered a BIG deal by the dean. I know teachers of the same age group (14-15 year olds) complaining about kids swearing at them , assaulting them, selling drugs, and having sex in school.

 

[agnes!]

Thank you, that is good advice. When my dd gets home today I will review the situation with her once again and make sure my facts are accurate before writing and then email the teacher asap.

Her definition was to destroy. Sounds like what she is trying to do to my dd's GPA.

Ahhhh, but isn't the first definition in a word's listing usually the most commonly-accepted one? And the first definition I quoted from the American Heritage Dictionary is more in alignment with your DD's. As I'm sure you know, your DD's isn't incorrect, it just isn't *exactly* what the teacher wanted.

I have an idea about these group projects. Just *once* I would like to see the slackers put in groups by themselves and the kids who try put into their own groups as well. Then the slackers would learn that they can't always put the load on others, the kids who try would learn that sometimes there is justice in the world and everyone would learn that sometimes you reap what you sow.

My DD (in high-school) just said that my idea would never happen because a certain number of students have to pass or else the teachers will get punished and that the slackers out-number the kids who try.

agnes!

 

[Sandy V.]

I have an idea about these group projects. Just *once* I would like to see the slackers put in groups by themselves and the kids who try put into their own groups as well. Then the slackers would learn that they can't always put the load on others, the kids who try would learn that sometimes there is justice in the world and everyone would learn that sometimes you reap what you sow.

I love this idea!!! I hate, hate, hate school group projects. I was always taken advantage of by the slackers and so were my kids. I would always have preferred twice as many individual projects so that my work ethic was used for an end result that I cared about. I always felt that group projects were a teacher's way of not having to grade as many assignments (not attacking anyone here on this thread).

School group projects never translate into positive experience for the working world because in most non-dysfunctional companies the slackers are fired when they don't produce. You can't fire someone from school for not achieving their academic potential. They can only be allowed to drag down the hard-working, well-intentioned rest of the group that is forced to work with them.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Compared to what goes on during the school day elsewhere, I suspect these kids are better behaved than most. This was considered a BIG deal by the dean. I know teachers of the same age group (14-15 year olds) complaining about kids swearing at them , assaulting them, selling drugs, and having sex in school.

OK, so sounds like they blew a piece of trash and a cake drop out of proportion.

They targeted this incident hard in order to get anger out or made them an example for other stuff that is going on.

Perhaps the school is lacking in common sense leadership right now?
I have seen that before with my dd's old middle school and drug use.

 

[MM27]

I've never have never had a behavior problem that couldn't be solved by switching someone's group. Groups have served on numerous occasions to motivate the reluctant learner, and to teach tolerance and acceptance to the students in my class. That's a pretty remarkable record when you consider I teach in the inner city which is often ripe with many types of behavior problems. I'm considered a very effective classroom manager and often the principal counts on me to handle difficult students.

Same here. I teach math and science in elementary school, urban as well, and I very rarely have kids that don't want to work in a group. If they don't, I don't force them.

The whole basis behind cooperative learning is that the groups are heterogeneously grouped. If the teacher monitors the groups, and takes care of any behavioral issues or personality conflicts, then even the kids that people refer to as "the yahoos" or "slackers" can be successful. How horrible that they make the darling perfect children work with those peons.

So what happens when the kid is is college or grad school and a group project comes up? Is mommy going to call and complain to the professor? Many of my projects through both were done as a group and many groups were assigned.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Seriously? I've been teaching elementary school for 12 years and in that time, I've never have never had a behavior problem that couldn't be solved by switching someone's group. Groups have served on numerous occasions to motivate the reluctant learner, and to teach tolerance and acceptance to the students in my class. That's a pretty remarkable record when you consider I teach in the inner city which is often ripe with many types of behavior problems. I'm considered a very effective classroom manager and often the principal counts on me to handle difficult students. He also trusts me with his best students, specifically putting the child of his best friend in my class.

Wow, patting yourself on the back much!!!!

I still did not see a good example of how grading, or disciplining, by groups can ever be effective at promoting individual responsibility.

How is giving a slacker a passing grade because little Suzie did all the work going to help anybody? How is giving little Suzie who did all the work, a failing grade because of a slacker, helping anybody.

I really do not see how you have any valid basis at all.

In the real world, each person usually has a job title and their own job responsibilities. I really do not see any link to 'real world' at all.

In the real world a hard working and productive person can leave the slackers behind, and seek the compensation that they deserve. Not so in school groups. Again, no correlation to the 'real world' at all.


You say that you do not teach high school. Well, in high school, that 'F' could cost Suzie big time. It is on her permanent grade. She could be denied participation in sports. She could be denied acceptance into AP college prep classes. And, this is helpful HOW????? Ohhhh Yeah, Suzie, welcome to the real word!!!

 

[JoyG]

How is giving a slacker a passing grade because little Suzie did all the work going to help anybody? How is giving little Suzie who did all the work, a failing grade because of a slacker, helping anybody.

It would really help the conversation to flow if people actually read my posts before quoting me.

In a previous post I stated that I do not give the child who did all the work a failing grade. I specifically said that I grade accordingly. The slacker will receive a failing grade and little Susie would pass.

 

[Wishing on a star]

That is great!

But, remember, the topic here is 'group punishment', and by association, group projects-grades.

Nobody is saying that there should never be group participation or cooperative learning.

What we are discussing is group punishment/grades.

By assumed definition, a group project gets a single grade. (not individual grades)

 

[agnes!]

Same here. I teach math and science in elementary school, urban as well, and I very rarely have kids that don't want to work in a group. If they don't, I don't force them.

The whole basis behind cooperative learning is that the groups are heterogeneously grouped. If the teacher monitors the groups, and takes care of any behavioral issues or personality conflicts, then even the kids that people refer to as "the yahoos" or "slackers" can be successful. How horrible that they make the darling perfect children work with those peons.

So what happens when the kid is is college or grad school and a group project comes up? Is mommy going to call and complain to the professor? Many of my projects through both were done as a group and many groups were assigned.

No, mommy does not do that now .

I don't think anyone prevously posting on this thread has stated that their child was perfect, just that their child *tries*. And to get back to the OP, do you think that the situation described in the OP was fair? What do you think the student who actually did her section of the project was taught? If your child was in the OP's shoes, what would you as the parent do?

In my experience (and my experience *only*), college students are somewhat more motivated than high school students and Master's degree candidates (and candidates for other advanced degrees) are usually better-motivated than their undergraduate colleagues. So even though one might have some responsibility/work-effort issues between group members, there doesn't seem to be as big of a discrepancy in work/responsibility attitudes.

Behavioral issues or personality conflicts do not seem to be the problem in the OP and is actually not the problem experienced by some students in previous posts, especially at the Middle School/High School level. It is when some members of the collective WILL NOT DO THE WORK, so then the entire collective gets punished.

If a student or any member of a group at least *tries* I have no problems with that. I don't care if the work looks perfect or is perfectly thought-out...just *try*. Some do *not*.

agnes!

 

[swilphil]

Joy--
You sound like a great teacher. I wish my 1st grader would do more group work. It would help him in so many ways-- he would get some confidence by helping other kids in his group and he could learn some much needed social skills.

As a high school teacher, I've had problems with group projects on the other end of the spectrum. I had a kid in a group who did very little work, so was graded accordingly. His mom complained that the other kids in the group got a higher grade. I had very specific criteria for the grades. Participation points for the individual kids during class time, and evaluation sheets by both me and the other members of the group.

The school district is constantly getting feedback from the community that students are graduating and don't know how to work in a group. That's one of the reasons we do group projects.

 

[TJ's Mom]

There was a survey of employers conducted by the National Association of Colleges and Employers in which they asked employers to rank the qualities or skills they considered most important in the people who work for them. In the top five were teamwork skills and interpersonal skills. Isn't it the teacher's job to teach these? Yes, there are other ways to do it, but groupwork is one way. However, I do not agree that you should hold one child responsible for another student not completing their work.

People need to learn to work in groups. In real life, I am not quitting my job because I work with a slacker. I love my job and where I work. So, I end up picking up their slack. There are so many reasons people do not get fired in today's world but the work still needs done. I (and a few others) pick up the slack for the others. That is my experience in real life.

I do have to wonder about how some of your children work in groups based on some of your posts. They show that many of you do not listen to other people's ideas and are not very friendly. I have to wonder if they have these same qualities and are hard to work with. Also, I have found that some of my brightest kids don't know how to give up control. People often would rather work with a slacker than them.

On a side note, I have put all the "slackers" in a group before. If you blow someone else's project because you refused to do it, you are on your own next time. Sometimes they do a great job and sometimes they don't. And as scary as it is, you would be amazed at what a high school kid would do for that twizzler than was referred to earlier!

 

[MM27]

No, mommy does not do that now .

I don't think anyone prevously posting on this thread has stated that their child was perfect, just that their child *tries*. And to get back to the OP, do you think that the situation described in the OP was fair? What do you think the student who actually did her section of the project was taught? If your child was in the OP's shoes, what would you as the parent do?

In my experience (and my experience *only*), college students are somewhat more motivated than high school students and Master's degree candidates (and candidates for other advanced degrees) are usually better-motivated than their undergraduate colleagues. So even though one might have some responsibility/work-effort issues between group members, there doesn't seem to be as big of a discrepancy in work/responsibility attitudes.

Behavioral issues or personality conflicts do not seem to be the problem in the OP and is actually not the problem experienced by some students in previous posts, especially at the Middle School/High School level. It is when some members of the collective WILL NOT DO THE WORK, so then the entire collective gets punished.

If a student or any member of a group at least *tries* I have no problems with that. I don't care if the work looks perfect or is perfectly thought-out...just *try*. Some do *not*.

agnes!

Many people seem very quick to call the "idiot teacher" or worse, going over the teacher's head over something that a MS/HS student should be handling themselves first. So the kid got a word/definition wrong, big deal. Was it used in context and that is the reason why the teacher marked it wrong? I don't understand how that becomes a principal issue or a BOE issue. My principal shares the "crazy parent" stories with us, so it's not a threat to call him. Especially the parents that have had issues with every teacher their child has had.

As far as college/grad school, you'd be surprised to learn that even there you will find people that figure they will just sit back and relax as others complete the work. For some people academics didn't get them into college and they are not expected for them to stay there. They have a different motive for being there.

As I said in my post, I teach elementary and I was responding to an elementary post. However, there is probably a reason why the ms/hs teacher grouped the students the way they did, the same as the reason why the elem. teachers group theirs. You know why I mentioned cooperative learning? Because we are expected by admin. to have kids of differing abilities in groups. We even have to list that in our plan books. I had a parent that asked for her daughter to be switched to a different group for science this year. Her reason? Her friend was in the other group.

Okay, so my short answer to the original post: Is group punishment effective? Sometimes it is.

 

[agnes!]

There was a survey of employers conducted by the National Association of Colleges and Employers in which they asked employers to rank the qualities or skills they considered most important in the people who work for them. In the top five were teamwork skills and interpersonal skills. Isn't it the teacher's job to teach these? Yes, there are other ways to do it, but groupwork is one way. However, I do not agree that you should hold one child responsible for another student not completing their work.

Thank you.

People need to learn to work in groups. In real life, I am not quitting my job because I work with a slacker. I love my job and where I work. So, I end up picking up their slack. There are so many reasons people do not get fired in today's world but the work still needs done. I (and a few others) pick up the slack for the others. That is my experience in real life.

I do have to wonder about how some of your children work in groups based on some of your posts. They show that many of you do not listen to other people's ideas and are not very friendly. I have to wonder if they have these same qualities and are hard to work with. Also, I have found that some of my brightest kids don't know how to give up control. People often would rather work with a slacker than them.

On a side note, I have put all the "slackers" in a group before. If you blow someone else's project because you refused to do it, you are on your own next time. Sometimes they do a great job and sometimes they don't. And as scary as it is, you would be amazed at what a high school kid would do for that twizzler than was referred to earlier!

If some parents have a jaundiced view of the educational system that view is not without cause, it's not like all parents woke up one day and decided that they would indiscriminantly teacher-bash. I would like my DD to have a successful year, I want her to learn and to be prepared for the next school year. I'm thrilled when things go well and it pains me when things don't, when a teacher is capricious in their grading or a teacher outright lies about a student's grades. (Two different teachers, two different kids, I know both of them and yes, in these cases the teachers were wrong.)

I like your side note. Good for you.

And regarding that survey re: employers wanting teamwork skills and interpersonal skills in their employees...I kind of wonder if an employee actually being able to do the job hired-for came up on the survey.

Many people seem very quick to call the "idiot teacher" or worse, going over the teacher's head over something that a MS/HS student should be handling themselves first. So the kid got a word/definition wrong, big deal. Was it used in context and that is the reason why the teacher marked it wrong? I don't understand how that becomes a principal issue or a BOE issue. My principal shares the "crazy parent" stories with us, so it's not a threat to call him. Especially the parents that have had issues with every teacher their child has had.

As far as college/grad school, you'd be surprised to learn that even there you will find people that figure they will just sit back and relax as others complete the work.

Oh, I don't know...nothing much surprises me any more.

For some people academics didn't get them into college and they are not expected for them to stay there. They have a different motive for being there.

As I said in my post, I teach elementary and I was responding to an elementary post. However, there is probably a reason why the ms/hs teacher grouped the students the way they did, the same as the reason why the elem. teachers group theirs. You know why I mentioned cooperative learning? Because we are expected by admin. to have kids of differing abilities in groups. We even have to list that in our plan books. I had a parent that asked for her daughter to be switched to a different group for science this year. Her reason? Her friend was in the other group.

Okay, so my short answer to the original post: Is group punishment effective? Sometimes it is.

Just like your principal shares stories about 'crazy parents', parents sometimes share stories about 'crazy teachers' and 'crazy administrators'.

For the record?...
I do not think my kid is perfect.
I let her pick and fight her own battles.
I would like for things to be fair - I want her to get the grade she deserves. If that is an "A", great. If she deserves an "F", then that's that and there's always summer school.
I don't expect every class to be peachy-keen for her, I don't expect every teacher to like her or for her to be inspired every day, I couldn't care less if she's in a group project with a friend or *not*. She is still expected to do her best, even when put in a group with people who do little or no work.

Re: the OP.
I think in certain situations, like when the group is a sports team, that consequences to the group can be an effective coaching/teaching tool, but I also think in many situations it is virtually useless.

agnes!

 

[PaulaSB12]

Yes, this teacher is a total moron. DD did not get 100% on her project bec she defined the word devour as eating voraciously or ravenoously or aggressively. According to the English teacher devour does not mean to eat.

I can certainly see that I am going to have to go to the principal, but I am first trying to prove that I play well with others by dealing with the teacher first.

That teacher is wrong according to my dictionary

devour
1 to eat up greedily or voraciously
2 to waste or destroy; consume
3 to consume greedily or avidly with the senses or mind
4 to engulf or absorb to gulp down

I didn't see the nex post defining devour, but I don't agree with group punishments how can you stop someone else from misbehaving how about just punish the one that is wrong so the rest of the class can see what the consequences are.

 

[Sandy V.]

And regarding that survey re: employers wanting teamwork skills and interpersonal skills in their employees...I kind of wonder if an employee actually being able to do the job hired-for came up on the survey.

I found the 2006 version of the survey. Here are the results:

Employers rate the importance of candidate qualities/skills
(5-point scale, where 1=not at all important and 5=extremely important)

Skill Rating

Communication Skills 4.7
Honesty/integrity 4.7
Teamwork skills (works well with others) 4.6
Strong work ethic 4.5
Analytical skills 4.4
Flexibility/adaptability 4.4
Interpersonal skills (relates well to others) 4.4
Motivation/initiative 4.4
Computer skills 4.3
Detail-oriented 4.1
Organizational skills 4.1
Leadership skills 4.0
Self-confidence 4.0
Well-mannered/polite 3.9
Friendly/outgoing personality 3.8
Tactfulness 3.8
Creativity 3.6
GPA (3.0 or better) 3.5
Entrepreneurial skills/risk-taker 3.2
Sense of humor 3.2

 

[DizBelle]

I don't punish as a group. I withhold rewards as a group. I see a difference there. I also don't find using the whole class as a group is effective. The groups I work with are 4-5 students and the groups change members often.

I probably wouldn't give out treats at all in the class if I had a room full of instrinsically motivated children like your daughter. The treats are really to motivate the "yahoos" that can't control themselves. So you could look at it this way, because she has to put up with the difficult child in her group, she gets the opportunity to earn a treat. If I didn't have behavior problems in the class, I wouldn't need a management system.

When I assign group projects I grade individually according to individual participation. Students should do the work to the best of their ability. If that means doing it all themselves, so be it. I will grade accordingly. If it wasn't assigned as a group project they would have been doing it all themselves anyway. Sometimes you won't like who you have to work with, but that happens in real life too. Do the best you can and you will be recognized.

To get a reward you have to screw up first and then correct the behavior. The ones that behave properly in the first place don't get rewarded. That makes sense.