Is Group Punishment Effective?

[froglady]

More info to explain my question.

DS's school has an open campus (we are in FL) with the cafeteria in a separate building. No food is allowed in the classrooms or locker bays.

One student left the remnants of her birthday cake (the part with her name on it) and another spilled a gatorade in the Freshman locker bay, which attracted ants and bugs. The Dean of Students punished the whole Freshman class by making them spend the first 25 minutes of their lunch period cleaning the locker bay, and said they would have to do it for the next two weeks. She, and most of the students, knew who the culprits were.

She did not continue the punishment for the two weeks, as I suspect that DS was not the only one who wasn't able to eat lunch in the amount of time left, so other parents may have complained. (I just fed DS a larger breakfast, and packed him a lunch)

Then, just yesterday, a student hit her (the dean) with an acorn in the freshman courtyard. Only the boys were punished (they had to sit in silence until the bell), although DS, and others, saw that it had come from a group of girls. He was not able to say which SPECIFIC girl had thrown it, but he and others saw a hand toss it. The girls were still allowed to socialize, as the dean apparently refused to believe that a girl had done it. (This according to DS, of course. )

IMO, if she had just meted out punishment to the culprits in the first case, the rest of the class would have thought twice about breaking the rules/misbehaving. I think that the punishment itself (cleaning the locker bay) was an appropriate one for the misdeed, I just didn't agree with including those students who follow the rules having to participate.

In the second, if she gives a group punishment (which I believe is ineffective), it should have been a total group punishment.

 

[barkley]

In my experience, the troublemakers never cared if they got in trouble or if people were angry with them. If the whole class got in trouble with them then at least they had company.

The worst part of this whole practice now that I'm an adult is the idiot bosses who think it's a good idea to punish everyone for the actions of one or two employees. Just because Mark and Diane been abusing some privilege does not mean the rest of us should have to pay. Take the privilege away from only the abusers at work and punish only the kids at school who misbehave. They are the ones causing the problems and they are the only ones who should be held accountable.

it could be your h/r that's actualy doing this. in my case i had people who would abuse stuff that was'nt technically allowed (like taking a 20 minute break instead of the mandated 15-they would disappear for 30, skipping an afternoon break so you could leave early for a kid's dr. appt.-they always arrived late and tried to work through both, personal calls at work-um how do ya get your work done when you're yakin to your bf all day????). h/r would'nt let me slam them unless i slammed everyone for doing it (even when they were doing it within reason and accordance with common office practices). so i had to revoke the privledges for EVERYONE.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

It sounds as if there is not proper supervision if students can eat cake and gatorade in a place where they are not supposed to.
What is up with that?

Is there a "breakdown" in respect and discipline at your school? Could that be what the core of the issue is?

 

[va32h]

I hated group punishments as a child and I hate them as a parent. My daughter's PE teacher is very big on group punishments.

In my experience, there were two kinds of kids who misbehaved 1) the basically nice kids who messed up once in awhile (and these kids were humiliated when their actions caused the whole class punishment) and 2) the basically mean kids who misbehaved on a regular basis and didn't care if the rest of the class hated them.

In fact, some of those kids might conclude "everybody hates me anyway, what's the point of trying to get along?"

As for my daughter, she has in all seriousness asked me why she should bother to behave, since she ends up with a punishment nearly every day anyway. She's tired of doing her best and still getting laps or being kept after class.

One of the PE teachers' "brilliant" punishments is to force the whole class to do calisthenics if even one person is "late" getting out of the locker room (this is middle school, they change into gym clothes).

Well, since there's no set time they have to change, "late" is arbitrary every day and the last person out is usually considered "late". According to my daughter, the class no longer even tries to hurry. They just consider the calisthenics a regular part of PE. Some effective punishment eh?

The whole class hates this teacher as do many of the parents. I complained about her once, but I've since decided that the teacher only digs her heels in further when parents complain so I'm not going to bother any more.

I just tell my daughter that we all have to deal with unreasonable people who happen to have control in our lives and she's getting a lot of practice early on. I do tell her she has to obey her teacher, but she doesn't have to like her.

 

[Camicar]

As for my daughter, she has in all seriousness asked me why she should bother to behave, since she ends up with a punishment nearly every day anyway. She's tired of doing her best and still getting laps or being kept after class.

That is what my dd said to me yesterday. She was assigned one of those stupid group projects with two slacker boys. They simply refused to do anything. So the two of them got zeros. She got a 95%. The teacher decided to punish them ALL for the two boys and so my dd's 95% is being divided amongst the three of them. WTH is the point of giving my dd an F, when she actually earned an A on the part of the assignment for which she was responsible? She couldn't force these kids to do their work -- after all, neither could the teacher, so why is my dd being held responsible? Yes, a phone call has already been placed to this idiot.

 

[Luv'sTink]

Absolutely not! There is no way one person or even a group can control another person if they don't want to stop doing something.

Example, DS baseball team one kid didn't want to practice and refused to pay attention. The other boys were trying to get him to do it and he just plain refused so the coach made them all run because of the one boys action and because the others were trying to get him to do it. The boy just laughed and walked instead of running with everyone else. The group was told if everyone didn't run they would all have to run again.

Those of you who that think it is fair explain how this example is fair to anyone?

 

[Wishing on a star]

Well, I didn't see a choice in the poll that fit perfectly.

Even if the other kids never resort to bullying or revenge, it is still just wrong, wrong, wrong.

And, if the other kids DO resort to bullying and revenge, just how is this a good thing!!!!!

I feel that in NO way is group punishment over the actions of one or two individuals ever warranted, or effective.

What good does it do anybody?????

 

[lovetoscrap]

I find that a little element of peer pressure goes a long way. I don't usually have the whole class work together, but break them up into smaller groups and have groups work together for a reward as a team. I put one "cut up" in each group and I am careful about catching that one being good to reward the group. I also teach third grade, so I don't know if this would work in middle school or high school.

I give the group points for good behavior, turning in hw, doing what they're supposed to, etc. I also take points away from the group if someone is talking. On Fridays the group with the most points gets a treat.

Sorry, but this is one of the things about school that just burns my butt! Both of my daughters are very well behaved (most of the time) and both have been in this situation. I am currently dealing with it again with my Middle school dd. WHY should they be punished, denied a treat, receive a lower grade, have to do all the work of a group project etc. because of one idiot that is going to do what he/she wants no matter what? It isn't the other kid's fault that child talks to much, won't stay in their seat, doesn't do their work or whatever else. As quoted from someone else below, my CHILD is not responsible for anyone else's behavior or work than their own. The problem causing child is the responsibility of themselves, the teacher and their parents. THE ADULTS!

I really HATE this mentality that my young child should be expected to monitor and change the behavior of another child. If the adults can't change the kid's behavior then how the heck is a 7 year old supposed to do it?

I taught K and had 2 kids that were constantly problems. One special area teacher had a reward system like that for classes with no talking when she was or something like that. We had a clipboard system where the teacher would put checks by the kids that didn't behave. It was always those 2. My class NEVER earned that reward from her because of these 2 kids. I even tried to get her to lighten up on the rest of the kids and just exclude those 2. She wouldn't budge. Do you think those 2 had many friends? NOPE. The other kids hated them. They knew they were keeping them from their reward.

So I went and got treats and would give them to my class EXCEPT for those 2 when they came back from her class with no other checks on the clipboard.

I hate it when teachers do this. I have taught my children that the ONLY person you have control over is YOURSELF. My child can't make Johnny sit still in his seat- that's not up to my child. It's a bad bad bad thing and frankly, I think it's the lazy way out for the teacher.

Don't make my child suffer because you can't get some other kids to behave correctly!

That is what my dd said to me yesterday. She was assigned one of those stupid group projects with two slacker boys. They simply refused to do anything. So the two of them got zeros. She got a 95%. The teacher decided to punish them ALL for the two boys and so my dd's 95% is being divided amongst the three of them. WTH is the point of giving my dd an F, when she actually earned an A on the part of the assignment for which she was responsible? She couldn't force these kids to do their work -- after all, neither could the teacher, so why is my dd being held responsible? Yes, a phone call has already been placed to this idiot.

My dd's lab partner in science is apparently like this. He copies her answers and refuses to contribute to any of the work. He just wanders around and makes jokes and steals her pencil and binder and does the labs incorrectly.

She has complained to the teacher. Know what that got her? A note on her report card of "Doesn't work well in groups". Teacher told her it was her problem to solve and she doesn't want to hear it. If things don't improve soon I will be placing that phone call also!

 

[agnes!]

That is what my dd said to me yesterday. She was assigned one of those stupid group projects with two slacker boys. They simply refused to do anything. So the two of them got zeros. She got a 95%. The teacher decided to punish them ALL for the two boys and so my dd's 95% is being divided amongst the three of them. WTH is the point of giving my dd an F, when she actually earned an A on the part of the assignment for which she was responsible? She couldn't force these kids to do their work -- after all, neither could the teacher, so why is my dd being held responsible? Yes, a phone call has already been placed to this idiot.

!!!

Time to scorch the Earth.
But don't rely just on the phone call - they're too easy to avoid. Consider sending an e-mail with return receipt cc'ed to this teacher's supervisor. Consider putting in a phone call to the supervisor/department head.
Consider making an appointment with administration if this teacher is unresponsive.

Please update what happens. I also have a responsible DD who in the past would sometimes get stuck in a group where members slacked off and she ended up doing a majority of the work. Hasn't happened *yet* this year, but I'm interested in how this situation plays out for your DD.

agnes!

 

[ducklite]

That is what my dd said to me yesterday. She was assigned one of those stupid group projects with two slacker boys. They simply refused to do anything. So the two of them got zeros. She got a 95%. The teacher decided to punish them ALL for the two boys and so my dd's 95% is being divided amongst the three of them. WTH is the point of giving my dd an F, when she actually earned an A on the part of the assignment for which she was responsible? She couldn't force these kids to do their work -- after all, neither could the teacher, so why is my dd being held responsible? Yes, a phone call has already been placed to this idiot.

That is so wrong. If the stupid teacher doesn't want to listen to reason, take it higher--all the way to the school board if you need to. I hate group projects like that. I don't mind them when the work is done in the class as an ungraded learning experience, but when you've got to rely on someone else to do some of the work and then be punished if they don't do it, that's just wrong.

 

[Nikel]

My dd's lab partner in science is apparently like this. He copies her answers and refuses to contribute to any of the work. He just wanders around and makes jokes and steals her pencil and binder and does the labs incorrectly.

She has complained to the teacher. Know what that got her? A note on her report card of "Doesn't work well in groups". Teacher told her it was her problem to solve and she doesn't want to hear it. If things don't improve soon I will be placing that phone call also!

The whole learning to work in groups thing always irritated the crap out of me. Yes, I get that learning to work with others is important. However in the real world, groups are going to be made up of either people that will work well together or people that have specific skills needed for the project as a whole. And if someone's not pulling their weight they can be fired. Not to mention, group projects in school, at least in the upper grades, were always done outside of class. When you've got 4-5 people that have different schedules and commitments after school is over and can live an hour away from each other, makes it pretty darn difficult to even get everyone together to work on it. I had a group project last fall for a class I was taking. We ended up meeting at midnight at the library on campus on 2 different nights because that was the only time all of us could get together.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Not MS or HS, but I wonder how the PSU football team felt about cleaning the stadium because of the six guys who were in trouble? I think group punishment can be good depending on the situation.

 

[Sandy V.]

That is what my dd said to me yesterday. She was assigned one of those stupid group projects with two slacker boys. They simply refused to do anything. So the two of them got zeros. She got a 95%. The teacher decided to punish them ALL for the two boys and so my dd's 95% is being divided amongst the three of them. WTH is the point of giving my dd an F, when she actually earned an A on the part of the assignment for which she was responsible? She couldn't force these kids to do their work -- after all, neither could the teacher, so why is my dd being held responsible? Yes, a phone call has already been placed to this idiot.

I hate the school group project experience more than just about anything on earth. The school district, not just this moronic teacher, would have a real fight on their hands here.

As for group punishment, I think it rarely, if ever, works in an academic setting. It's taking the lazy way out and as freckles and boo said earlier, it creates resentment and indicates that you don't value real fairness.

 

[Camicar]

Yes, this teacher is a total moron. DD did not get 100% on her project bec she defined the word devour as eating voraciously or ravenoously or aggressively. According to the English teacher devour does not mean to eat.

I can certainly see that I am going to have to go to the principal, but I am first trying to prove that I play well with others by dealing with the teacher first.

 

[agnes!]

Yes, this teacher is a total moron. DD did not get 100% on her project bec she defined the word devour as eating voraciously or ravenoously or aggressively. According to the English teacher devour does not mean to eat.

I can certainly see that I am going to have to go to the principal, but I am first trying to prove that I play well with others by dealing with the teacher first.

I agree about not going over the teacher's head at first, but I would send that e-mail asap this morning so you will have a paper trail. When you talk to the department head or the principal you can then appear/act/seem quite reasonable when you calmly say "I sent Mrs. Smith an e-mail on Tuesday morning and haven't received a response yet." That way, you have gone to the teacher first, and also covered your bases by having a paper trail of that fact.

Btw, I wonder what the teacher defines "devour" as ... Your DD's definition sounds pretty darn good to me.

agnes!

 

[agnes!]

According to the American Heritage Dictoinary...
de·vour (dĭ-vour') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. de·voured, de·vour·ing, de·vours

To eat up greedily. See Synonyms at eat.
To destroy, consume, or waste: Flames devoured the structure in minutes.
To take in eagerly: devour a novel.
To prey upon voraciously: was devoured by jealousy.

I'm still stuck on how the teacher would define "devour".
agnes!

 

[Camicar]

but I would send that e-mail asap this morning so you will have a paper trail.

Thank you, that is good advice. When my dd gets home today I will review the situation with her once again and make sure my facts are accurate before writing and then email the teacher asap.

I wonder what the teacher defines "devour"

Her definition was to destroy. Sounds like what she is trying to do to my dd's GPA.

 

[JoyG]

WHY should they be punished, denied a treat, receive a lower grade, have to do all the work of a group project etc. because of one idiot that is going to do what he/she wants no matter what? It isn't the other kid's fault that child talks to much, won't stay in their seat, doesn't do their work or whatever else. As quoted from someone else below, my CHILD is not responsible for anyone else's behavior or work than their own.

I don't punish as a group. I withhold rewards as a group. I see a difference there. I also don't find using the whole class as a group is effective. The groups I work with are 4-5 students and the groups change members often.

I probably wouldn't give out treats at all in the class if I had a room full of instrinsically motivated children like your daughter. The treats are really to motivate the "yahoos" that can't control themselves. So you could look at it this way, because she has to put up with the difficult child in her group, she gets the opportunity to earn a treat. If I didn't have behavior problems in the class, I wouldn't need a management system.

When I assign group projects I grade individually according to individual participation. Students should do the work to the best of their ability. If that means doing it all themselves, so be it. I will grade accordingly. If it wasn't assigned as a group project they would have been doing it all themselves anyway. Sometimes you won't like who you have to work with, but that happens in real life too. Do the best you can and you will be recognized.

 

[Camicar]

So you could look at it this way, because she has to put up with the difficult child in her group, she gets the opportunity to earn a treat.

Your logic here is so faulty, I can't help but find it funny. So our kids are supposed to be dancing with glee that because they are stuck with slackers they get a chance to earn a treat? Listen to yourself. Do you not hear how ridiculous that is? Especially when the fact that the good kid is deliberately stuck with slackers by the teacher sets the good student up from the outset to be punished. If you expect to win points from parents for that set up, you are sadly mistaken. The truth is that when a good student realizes they have been set up to fail, then they have ALL motivation taken away from them to even try.

Sometimes you won't like who you have to work with, but that happens in real life too.

IRL, if your partners refused to do their work and said so to their supervisor, they would be fired and thereby removed from the work environment and you would not be punished for their failures. A work environment in which the one good worker is punished for the failures of others is obviously dysfunctional --except, of course, in education.

Sorry, no defense of group projects is going to work with me. I've never seen it be an equitable situation for all involved. Life is not fair, but there is no reason to deliberately set the stage for inequity.

 

[Master Gracy]

as a "good student" per se, I dislike getting punished for what others do. The "bad students" are also the most popular, so no shunning going on here.
I think blanket punishments are unfair on the "good students"