Is Free Dining dumbing down the menus?

[TDC Nala]

Fortunetly there are still some fine dining establishments in WDW that are not on the plan-I just hope THAT doesn't change. I heard someone say the Fulton's might be joining the plan at some point and it made me sad. I hope that's just a rumor...Plus if they did then Portobello prob. would too since they are owned by the same company. Let's hope not.

NOOOOO not Portobello.

 

[NEM]

I sort of got the impression from reading this thread and on others (here and on other boards) regarding the dining plan that some people think that the "dining plan crowd" doesn't belong in certain restaurants, or that the restaurants are cutting the costs by getting "cheaper" items because we po' folk don't appreciate the "good" food I think that is a bit of an extreme attitude to have, and perhaps I totally misconstrued some of the statements (but some were plainly worded though).

Is it that there is a missed sense of "upper end" that folks feel are being "dragged down" to a "lower" level? Or is it really a longing for a shrimp appetizer that may have been taken away? Because as just a simple gal from a small town, reading through some of these discussions, it really comes off at times as though it is a "gourmands" versus "those who don't belong" and how dare Disney let us in

I think it would be great if Disney chose to keep some of the great things that you all are mentioning and seem to love and miss, while at the same time having the DDP. Am I totally off base here, or COULD they have maintained the same menus and still implemented the DDP? I would think that they would still be making a decent profit if they kept the menus as-is and still had the ddp.

I think everyone should enjoy all Disney has or has had too offer - class/income aside. I dont like that Disney cut quality in such an obvious way, which coincidentally showed up with the advent of the Dining Plan.

I would have liked to have seen a tiered system or at least add ons or specials that continued to reflect the skill of the chef and the uniqueness of the restaurant rather than removal of such items and homoginization of the menus.

I think it is a shame that the quality has sufferred for all to meet what is considered acceptable by a majority. This has nothing to do with class/income, but it is a fact. I only wish menus/selections would have stayed the same since the advent of the dining plan - and that presentation and ingredients reflected the same level of quality (ie shrimp size) once found at Disney.

But if the dining plan could not make money with the menus the same and they changed then clearly the dining plan has had an impact. A persons perception of whether that is good or bad is directly related to their experiences before the dining plan.

If families did not do TS before, then selections and ability to partake today seem wonderful. If families did look forward to the unique dining experiences (foodies) as much as the park experiences, then the changes have brought a slight sense of disappointment.

It is the right of every Disney patron to enjoy all Disney offers! I dont blame other Disney patrons for this "dumbing" down, I do blame the powers that be at Disney Dining for trying to figure out "how low can we go" before patrons kick back and find things unacceptable.

Only time will tell....

Michelle

 

[NEM]

And, truth be told, I LOVE a good Big Mac. And mac and cheese. And cheese doodles. As much as the next guy.

I am, frankly, surprised that Disney allows US in as well!

Heh heh.

But... "dumbed down" is not insulting. In any way. It means: over simplified.

Yeah...what she said....

 

[JMLBrats]

Probably not. Then they don't have to pay good chefs which will help the bottom line. And the masses are still happy, because if they are using the DDP they are getting value.

Unfortunetly you have a very good point.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

No, they've simply learned that Chefs de France has an upstairs dining room, called Bistro de Paris. That's really the point: The better food is still available, but Disney has simply reallocated its dining room assets based on how many guests there were for each grade of offering. I think they realize, also, that they have more CS space than they need, and still need more and more low-priced TS space. (That may be why we see them making overtures towards converting Tusker House into TS.)

I bet Disney would love to be able to do that with hotels too (convert from deluxe to moderate, for example, when a trend in consumer behaviors advocate that reallocation), but the value of a hotel is so tied up in physical aspects of the venue.

I was speaking directly about Bistro de Paris (if you read the entire post you would have seen that) "upstairs" has been "Americianized" and toned done to a simplier/different palate. That is just fact, perhaps you should inquire directly and hear it from the horses mouth.
The day Disney decides or even thinks about changing deluxe hotels to moderate is the day many (although not the majority) will walk away. Already the deluxe hotels are suffering......deluxe is in the name but no longer in the service, amenities, etc.

Bottom line & the reason I believe this thread was started is yes I would pay more for dining & not eating anyday.

 

[Eeyore2003]

Definitely, it is not only reflected in the food quality, but the restaurants and more crowded and service worse. Case in point for us would be Le Cellier. We never go there anymore and it used to be our favorite.

On one hand it's nice that more people can enjoy the restaurants, but I do miss the quality and service. Eating at Le Cellier used to be classy and elegant, now it's just loud and crazy.

I am one that does get a little frustrated at times about the complaints about how awesome things "used" to be at Disney World, but I think this is one case where it is really true. Things have gone downhill in their restaurants.

 

[bicker]

I totally agree with the assessment of other venues. But WDW has a different spin on vacationing because most venues are a one day experience.

I'm not sure what you mean by a different spin. I don't think WDW has said anything that would indicate that the normal premium for food that you would expect to pay in other, similar venues wouldn't apply.

I can deal with expensive hot dogs at a stadium, expensive burgers at Great Adventure as well as generally lousy food because they are one day experiences. Once you start packaging a complete vacation on one site, promote Magical Express to keep people onsite, it becomes more difficult to swallow expensive OOP food day after day especially if the quality is less than stellar.

On the contrary, Magical Express and the Dining Plan are deliberately intended to make it more palatable for Average Joe to "swallow expensive OOP food day after day". Fostering that premium price is a fundamental part of WDW's business plan, and a very smart part IMHO.

I think you have to compare WDW now to a cruise experience because of the all-inclusiveness of the venue and the amount of time you are tethered to the vacation site (i.e., the cruise ship or WDW). And based on that comparison, WDW food is coming up short IMO. But that's a subjective opinion.

It sure is subjective, because I've found that the food at WDW is in almost every way comparable to the food on Royal Caribbean, for example.

I noticed you didn't hazard a guess as to the percentage of WDW guests frequenting TS restaurants who might be on the DDP. Any reason?

Because I don't have the data. I defer to Disney's judgment when they have the data and we don't.

 

[bicker]

A persons perception of whether that is good or bad is directly related to their experiences before the dining plan.

This is similar to what I did my Master's thesis on: Sunk-Cost Analysis. The basic upshot of the concept is that you're always better off ignoring past history when evaluating your future choices.

It is the right of every Disney patron to enjoy all Disney offers!

Not exactly. It is the right of every Disney guest to enjoy whatever Disney offers, which they are capable and willing to pay for. WDW isn't a charity. It's a for-profit enterprise, and the guest's capability and willingness to pay is always a factor.

I dont blame other Disney patrons for this "dumbing" down, I do blame the powers that be at Disney Dining for trying to figure out "how low can we go" before patrons kick back and find things unacceptable.

And I just don't see the logic in that: Disney is doing what they're supposed to do, while, if your assertions that guests suffer as a result of this situation are correct, guests who foster the status quo are at fault for their own suffering. I think it is one thing to say what you like or don't like, but when you're blaming people, I think it really needs to be based on more objective criteria.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

I'm not sure what you mean by a different spin. I don't think WDW has said anything that would indicate that the normal premium for food that you would expect to pay in other, similar venues wouldn't apply.

On the contrary, Magical Express and the Dining Plan are deliberately intended to make it more palatable for Average Joe to "swallow expensive OOP food day after day". Fostering that premium price is a fundamental part of WDW's business plan, and a very smart part IMHO.

It sure is subjective, because I've found that the food at WDW is in almost every way comparable to the food on Royal Caribbean, for example.

Because I don't have the data. I defer to Disney's judgment when they have the data and we don't.

Have to agree with some very good comparisons I just read. WDW is now cruise ship food...lots of it don't expect much.
All-inclusive is also another way to state it.....if you like all-inclusive you will like the dining available especially the dining plans and "free dining". It is looking for the Appleby, Fridays, Legal Seafood crowd which is very cost effective just really disappointing to some...IMO

 

[Katiebell]

I was speaking directly about Bistro de Paris (if you read the entire post you would have seen that) "upstairs" has been "Americianized" and toned done to a simplier/different palate. That is just fact, perhaps you should inquire directly and hear it from the horses mouth.
The day Disney decides or even thinks about changing deluxe hotels to moderate is the day many (although not the majority) will walk away. Already the deluxe hotels are suffering......deluxe is in the name but no longer in the service, amenities, etc.

Bottom line & the reason I believe this thread was started is yes I would pay more for dining & not eating anyday.

I have never eaten there, so I have no idea what the menu used to be like. So I'm not doubting you at all that the menu has changed, become more Americanized, or toned down. But Bistro de Paris has never been on the dining plan -- so how could the dining plan, free or not, have affected the menu? I'm sorry if I've misunderstood, and you are making another point, but the title of this thread is: "Is Free Dining dumbing down the menus?"

I think the point that was being made is: if you don't like the dining plan, if you feel that it has adversely affected your favorite restaurants because they are now crowded, ADR's are required, and the menus are lower quality than they once were -- there are restaurants not on the plan: Fultons, Portobello, V&A, bluezoo, Wolfgang Puck upstairs, Bistro de Paris, etc. If you feel that those restaurants are also suffering, and the menus are not as appealing and the quality of the ingredients is lower -- then the problem obviously is not the dining plan, because none of them even take the DDP.

 

[CAJUNBLAZE]

I have read most of the posts here and as a first time wdw guest this Septmeber, and having a marketing background, let me add this:

1)They dont have to add all the eating establishments to the ddp.

2)The also use the free ddr at one of the slowest times of their year.

3)Finally I would not be going to wdw if it wasnt for the ddp!

Not only are people getting to experience wdw connected with an eating pleasure that they havent experienced before and getting hooked.
They are getting more rooms booked on premises.

To me, there is getting to be alot more competition in the Orlando area than ever before for the vaction dollar!

 

[Colleen27]

Free dining doesn't have a substantial impact on menu choices -- the menu choices are very similar the whole year 'round. The way menus are now are a reflection of guests, these days, wanting affordable dining options, where in the "golden age" of dining at WDW, generally only the more affluent guests had table service meals every day. Now, the meals are affordable, and some of the same restaurants which languished practically empty 10-20 years ago are almost full every night. Disney has listened to its guests -- ALL of us -- and did what a greater portion of us wanted.

Well said.To blame the DDP is to blame a "symptom" rather than the cause. Disney wants more guests staying on site, and cheaper rooms and cheaper meals are the two major reasons people choose to stay elsewhere. By making the meals more affordable, both through menu changes and through creating the dining plan, Disney is catering to that (large) segment of the population that is too budget conscious to pay typical theme park prices for every meal, but who don't want to settle for fast-food type counter service meals for the entire vacation either. By offering the dining plan, Disney is trying to lure the visitors who would otherwise stay at Holiday Inn or Courtyard on I-Drive and eat at Applebees after leaving the parks to choose on-site hotels and restaurants. And obviously it is working, or there wouldn't be such a need to make ADRs at 180 days out.

 

[gina2000]

I'm flattered, Bicker. Those last two quotes are not mine but you ascribed them to me.

The different spin I'm referring to is the length of time people spend at WDW verses a stadium venue or a one day amusement park. I can handle a bad or expensive meal when I'm at a one day venue. It becomes increasingly difficult to do so multiple days in a row. That's why it makes sense to have better food and/or more moderately priced food (which is what WDW does with DDP) because people need to eat every day and can't go home after a day out. Every day is a day out. Get it?

 

[johnsonet]

A lot of this business stuff is over my head but I can tell you that I am a frequent Disney guest and I have definitely noticed a change in the past year. I have friends in the same situation who feel the exact same way.
I believe that the very creativity and freedom of the top chefs at Disney that has allowed for the incredible meals many of us have experienced, and the incredible variety that used to be there, is being stifled by the shift toward a Dining Plan, "free" or purchased in packages.
I agree that Disney is being smart. They want to fill their resorts and their parks and their restaurants. No one can argue with that. But I do long for the original cheese plate at AKL's Mara It had 3 or 4 different cheeses, nice crackers and both fresh and dried fruits. Now it's red grapes, Captain's wafers and a wedge of cheddar and a wedge of brie (I think)... perfect example of the change in quality and uniqueness to the resort...
As a person who is willing to spend $150 to go to a Wine Dinner at Jiko so that I can learn, taste and savor the foods, wines and overall energy of the event, I know that I am in the MINORITY of WDW guests. I don't really matter. Disney is huge and therefore caters to the masses. The masses are not going to go to a Wine Dinner. They are not going to stay at Disney as often as many on these boards do or pay for an AP and use it enough to pay for itself many times over in park days and resort discounts... or pay for a Disney Dining card which might pay for itself in the course of one MEAL at Jiko...
Disney isn't catering to ME, it's catering to the person who buys a package and comes maybe once a year. They don't care whether I come 20 times in one year to Jiko or CA Grill, they're concerned with keeping those restaurants FULL, 365 days a year. If the quality has to slip, and most people won't even know it, so be it. That's unfortunate but I do understand.
I hate to see this trend but there''s nothing I can do about it.
I love going to WDW and I'm never going to stop. They've got me hooked!

 

[Lewisc]

The newest deluxe hotel, AKL, was designed to be a lower cost deluxe hotel. Same philosophy as WL.

Disney is converting rooms at AKL for DVC use. Disney could easily convert one or more building at GF or POLY for DVC use. I suspect bookings for both hotels are high enough for Disney.

The Disney deluxe resorts are only rated 3*. Disney can book their hotels, at high rates, without spending the $$ required for a higher rating.

GF has a number of restaurants. It would be easy for Disney to drop Citricos from the DDP. GF would still have a buffet, a one TS restaurant and a signature restaurant. My guess is there aren't enough "foodies" willing to pay $70-$100 per head. The DDP allocates approximately $26-$27 /TS credit so a signature restaurant is getting around $55.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Disney would love to do that, but the value of a resort is tied up mostly in upfront costs: location, construction, amenities, appointments, etc. Perhaps, if they ever got to a point where a hotel needed to be completely refurbished (Disney never lets any of their hotels get to that point, though), they could refurbish it as a lower-grade hotel -- if you're going to replace the furniture, anyway, you can replace it with lower-grade furniture -- but you still cannot move the hotel to a less valuable siting, so it will still be priced higher than a hotel with all other accouterments the same, but with a less desirable location.

So my point was that they can't do with hotel what they can do with restaurants.

It has been discussed. I don't remember exactly, but I think some of the insiders indicated that initial expectations in that regard were not satisfied.

 

[bicker]

The newest deluxe hotel, AKL, was designed to be a lower cost deluxe hotel. Same philosophy as WL.

Good point, though both were built that way from the beginning, not retrofit (like a restaurant), and indeed, objectively, the resorts provide less intrinsic value. However, as the same time, these two resorts provided more extrinsic value, as Disney learned better how to foster value through superior theming, so the whole "lower cost" thing didn't turn into "lower prices" at least not by much.

Disney is converting rooms at AKL for DVC use.

DVC is not a downgrade.

GF has a number of restaurants. It would be easy for Disney to drop Citricos from the DDP. GF would still have a buffet, a one TS restaurant and a signature restaurant. My guess is there aren't enough "foodies" willing to pay $70-$100 per head.

That's really it in a nutshell: Disney's offerings match what its guests-in-general really want.

 

[Lewisc]

It's not a downgrade, it actually removes a portion of the hotel from Disney's inventory of hotel rooms.

DVC is not a downgrade.

That's really it in a nutshell: Disney's offerings match what its guests-in-general really want.

 

[GusT]

While reading this thread, I'm really getting the feeling that alot of people are feeling like if you can't afford a DVC and $100/ per person/ per meal, then you shouldn't be allowed to dine at Disney. I hope I am wrong, but that seems to be the overall jist of this thread. "If you are loaded enough to enjoy it all stay at home" I didn't realize Disney was just for the rich. Do you object to value resorts as well? It's really frustrating to me. I am going to be in WDW in 25 days on my honeymoon, DDP in hand and proud of it. And it's not about saving money to me, it's about the convenience of it all being paid for before we get there. So maybe these very judgemental people on this thread should think about other aspects of the plan instead of "lower class people going in to restaurants ordering the most expensive thing on the menu because it's expensive!"

 

[bicker]

While reading this thread, I'm really getting the feeling that alot of people are feeling like if you can't afford a DVC and $100/ per person/ per meal, then you shouldn't be allowed to dine at Disney.

I'm sure that no one has ever said that. I do agree that some folks are a little "over the top" with their criticisms of what Disney has done to make dining more affordable in recent years, but I think you need to give them a break and at least allow for the fact that they simply are expressing their frustration with becoming part of a small unserviced sector of Disney's customer-base.

The reality is that WDW is expensive -- it always has been -- and ignoring that does nothing to enhance anyone's WDW vacation experience. Back in the day, we weren't able to afford nice meals at WDW either, but always had a great time anyway, just eating counter-service or perhaps having a few meals off-site. Also, as I indicated, WDW has been deliberately working in recent years to make dining more affordable for the Average Joe than they have in the past. Therefore, all this talk about WDW being just for the rich is a red herring.

 

[johnsonet]

I just hate that just as I had discovered for myself the fine dining at Disney, these changes are happening. Also, I hate the change in some of my old favorites...how Tony's Town Square is vs. how it used to be Also, I gave my little fruit plate example, I also had a dessert somewhere that was noticeably different in quality from before but I can't remember what it was... Anyway, it is a "dumbing down" based on running the numbers and trying to increase profits. WDW is a business so - what can I say? Disney has latched on to the fact that people like to think they're getting something for nothing, so if they offer "free dining" and it's a huge success, good for them. I've always thought vacation packages were rip-offs. If they'd offer the old room discounts, less convoluted ticket pricing and guests ate on their own, making their own choices, I think we, as guests, would be better off $$wise. But ~ those days seem to be over...
Enjoy the dining plan. I hope it works well for everyone