IS Disney still broken?
- Thread starter Peter Pirate
- Start date
DisneyKidds
<font color=green>The TF thanks DisneyKidds for mo
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An old time R&N board discussion........good to see some old names mixed with the new. A little late to the party, but a few thoughts.
First, regarding Walt and motives, demographics or targets, and the like. I really don't think that Walt ever envisioned that what he started in DL, at the time he started it, would become near the size and scope that it became in his time, and even moreso has become today. Sure, Walt was a little more of a businessman than most give him credit for. No, he was not good with the dollars and cents, but there are all kinds of good businessmen with all kinds of different skillsets. Put together the right combination of some of those folk and look out. So sure, Walt knew he needed to make some money. He wasn't that foolish to forget that minor fact. Actually, almost all the discussions and arguments we have around here don't center on the fact that money needed to be made, but rather the best way to go about making that money.
So Walt wanted to make money.........but that isn't why he chose animation, or later the theme park industry, to pursue. Walt didn't look for a profitable idea first, and then decide the best way to approach it. Rather, Walt was a man of passion and ideals, who was most interested in doing things he loved. Walt had a passion for animation, and that is why he was a pioneer in the field. It wasn't his passion for profit that led him to animation.
I know, I know......what does this have to do with who Walt created the theme parks for? Well, I'm getting there!!!
Walt's motivation for DL was another passion. It was another desire to create something that didn't exist, or improve upon what rudimentary things did exist in the amusement industry at the time. Proof of that comes from all the anecdotal and written evidence we have regarding Walt's view of the terrible amusement attractions that existed in the day. He was drawn to it not by his desire to make a profit, but by his love of family and desire to create something new, something unique, something wonderful that people of all ages could enjoy. Asking what agre group he made it for is simply asking the wrong question, IMHO.
I suppose if pushed to answer the question I'd have to finally disagree with the good Pirate. However, I think to focus on the question of primary target with regard to Walt and DL is entirely inappropriate.
Now for this, from our good friend LB........
. (Psst........I don't think anyone around here is blind at all)
There are many who share the sentiments that Baron puts forth here, but I'm not one of them. Sure, the competition may have caught up some - even a great deal - and made up more ground that than they should have, and would have if Disney weren't a bit "broken". However, Disney is still head and shoulders above the rest and is hardly a commonplace commodity drowning in a sea of mediocrity. I would hardly deprive Baron, et. al. of the Walt given right to lament what could have been, but to do so at the expense of discounting what still exists and has been created since is a HUGE mistake.
First, regarding Walt and motives, demographics or targets, and the like. I really don't think that Walt ever envisioned that what he started in DL, at the time he started it, would become near the size and scope that it became in his time, and even moreso has become today. Sure, Walt was a little more of a businessman than most give him credit for. No, he was not good with the dollars and cents, but there are all kinds of good businessmen with all kinds of different skillsets. Put together the right combination of some of those folk and look out. So sure, Walt knew he needed to make some money. He wasn't that foolish to forget that minor fact. Actually, almost all the discussions and arguments we have around here don't center on the fact that money needed to be made, but rather the best way to go about making that money.
So Walt wanted to make money.........but that isn't why he chose animation, or later the theme park industry, to pursue. Walt didn't look for a profitable idea first, and then decide the best way to approach it. Rather, Walt was a man of passion and ideals, who was most interested in doing things he loved. Walt had a passion for animation, and that is why he was a pioneer in the field. It wasn't his passion for profit that led him to animation.
I know, I know......what does this have to do with who Walt created the theme parks for? Well, I'm getting there!!!
Walt's motivation for DL was another passion. It was another desire to create something that didn't exist, or improve upon what rudimentary things did exist in the amusement industry at the time. Proof of that comes from all the anecdotal and written evidence we have regarding Walt's view of the terrible amusement attractions that existed in the day. He was drawn to it not by his desire to make a profit, but by his love of family and desire to create something new, something unique, something wonderful that people of all ages could enjoy. Asking what agre group he made it for is simply asking the wrong question, IMHO.
I suppose if pushed to answer the question I'd have to finally disagree with the good Pirate. However, I think to focus on the question of primary target with regard to Walt and DL is entirely inappropriate.
Now for this, from our good friend LB........
This really gets to the very heart of the topic of this whole thread, and the difference between the BbyB crowd, and the BbyPD crowd
. (Psst........I don't think anyone around here is blind at all)There are many who share the sentiments that Baron puts forth here, but I'm not one of them. Sure, the competition may have caught up some - even a great deal - and made up more ground that than they should have, and would have if Disney weren't a bit "broken". However, Disney is still head and shoulders above the rest and is hardly a commonplace commodity drowning in a sea of mediocrity. I would hardly deprive Baron, et. al. of the Walt given right to lament what could have been, but to do so at the expense of discounting what still exists and has been created since is a HUGE mistake.
Man has this thread evolved!
First - to Mr. Pirate I would like to say how glad I am that you and your family are well and how sorry I am for the countless thousands who have lost so much. What a tragic nightmare!
Now for the many brilliant posts here, I have to say that I agree and disagree with several points.
First, I agree the term "demographic" is somewhat moot as it wasn't coined during the decades Walt built his empire but the concept was no stranger to him.
He searched for an audience knowing there was a market for his product. True, his target being the general public did include everyone but how he masterfully sold it was very telling indeed.
Saturday was Daddy's day. In other words, Dad worked and brought home the money and had the weekends off to dedicate to his family. This is Walt talking to every other father out there promoting an option for them to spend their days off with the family at a themepark knowing full well who the primary breadwinner was in the house.
This is not a coincidence that he remarked repeatedly on this level - utilizing himself as the basis of course - but all the while promoting family and fun. In my opinion dad was a big target and boy did he deliver.
On another note, one particular statement really peaked my interest:
Disney is independent. They don't have a parent company and therefore they remain one of the few - heck possibly the only - remaining media entertainment corporate giants of Walt's day. But I know that wasn't what you meant so I'm going to delve a bit deeper here since the concepts and philosophical barriers of this empire are your main heart and soul.
You feel the company internally is taken over. The core philosophy is lost and Eisner has gutted the place with nothing more than mere henchman and countless others hired solely to do his bidding which is worship the almighty greengoddess! All Hail to the Franklin! Build the wealth of the individual at all cost!
How do I begin to respond to this? Let me start out by saying that any CEO today, who tries to admit he or she isn't about the money is lying. So yes, Eisner is about the money. And any second lieutenant - third string or middle manager who continues to work in a compromised environment and tries to admit he or she isn't about self-promotion and/or financial survival is lying as well. So inadvertantly, they too, are about the money.
So I guess, I agree with you in terms of the radically changed comment. The founder is gone. The company is listed on the exchange and it's a whole different ballgame in operations. But I disagree with you that a new guy will be the answer to reverting back to the old formula of spend whatever it takes and bet the farm. Whomever takes over the reigns from here on out will always be about the money. That's the economic truth.
Well said and I'd like to add that how people were entertained 40 years age would not necessarily entertain people in the future as well.
First - to Mr. Pirate I would like to say how glad I am that you and your family are well and how sorry I am for the countless thousands who have lost so much. What a tragic nightmare!
Now for the many brilliant posts here, I have to say that I agree and disagree with several points.
First, I agree the term "demographic" is somewhat moot as it wasn't coined during the decades Walt built his empire but the concept was no stranger to him.
He searched for an audience knowing there was a market for his product. True, his target being the general public did include everyone but how he masterfully sold it was very telling indeed.
Saturday was Daddy's day. In other words, Dad worked and brought home the money and had the weekends off to dedicate to his family. This is Walt talking to every other father out there promoting an option for them to spend their days off with the family at a themepark knowing full well who the primary breadwinner was in the house.
This is not a coincidence that he remarked repeatedly on this level - utilizing himself as the basis of course - but all the while promoting family and fun. In my opinion dad was a big target and boy did he deliver.
On another note, one particular statement really peaked my interest:
Disney is independent. They don't have a parent company and therefore they remain one of the few - heck possibly the only - remaining media entertainment corporate giants of Walt's day. But I know that wasn't what you meant so I'm going to delve a bit deeper here since the concepts and philosophical barriers of this empire are your main heart and soul.
You feel the company internally is taken over. The core philosophy is lost and Eisner has gutted the place with nothing more than mere henchman and countless others hired solely to do his bidding which is worship the almighty greengoddess! All Hail to the Franklin! Build the wealth of the individual at all cost!
How do I begin to respond to this? Let me start out by saying that any CEO today, who tries to admit he or she isn't about the money is lying. So yes, Eisner is about the money. And any second lieutenant - third string or middle manager who continues to work in a compromised environment and tries to admit he or she isn't about self-promotion and/or financial survival is lying as well. So inadvertantly, they too, are about the money.
So I guess, I agree with you in terms of the radically changed comment. The founder is gone. The company is listed on the exchange and it's a whole different ballgame in operations. But I disagree with you that a new guy will be the answer to reverting back to the old formula of spend whatever it takes and bet the farm. Whomever takes over the reigns from here on out will always be about the money. That's the economic truth.
Well said and I'd like to add that how people were entertained 40 years age would not necessarily entertain people in the future as well.
airlarry!
Did you know some ferns date back to Prehistoric t
- Joined
- May 30, 2000
- Messages
- 959
Vike, it is simple.
Uncle Walt built a place where adults and children COULD go together, or adults COULD go alone. Not a place where Adults only or Children only or Adults and Children only WILL go.
The verb is the most important thing in this discussion. Once you understand "could", you won't have to wonder what point Dan and my good friend Professor Baron are trying to make. I know you know this, because I've read that you enjoy your trips. You know deep down inside that Uncle Walt wanted a place where everyone -- family, single, couple, or whatever -- could for a short time regain the feeling of child-like wonder, happiness, and pleasure. Even if only for a day or two.
As a side note, wow, did you misunderstand the popsicle's alter ego's comment or what!
This question, I respectfully suggest, is irrelevant.
Uncle Walt built a place where adults and children COULD go together, or adults COULD go alone. Not a place where Adults only or Children only or Adults and Children only WILL go.
The verb is the most important thing in this discussion. Once you understand "could", you won't have to wonder what point Dan and my good friend Professor Baron are trying to make. I know you know this, because I've read that you enjoy your trips. You know deep down inside that Uncle Walt wanted a place where everyone -- family, single, couple, or whatever -- could for a short time regain the feeling of child-like wonder, happiness, and pleasure. Even if only for a day or two.
As a side note, wow, did you misunderstand the popsicle's alter ego's comment or what!
True.
And I agree with DancingBear on this one - Eisner et al. were right to diversify and expand the company's media holdings during the mergers and acquisitions era. Otherwise, Disney would not be the great independent company it is today. It would have ceased as a producer of entertainment and become little more than a private label with a couple of parks and a vintage film library.
I don't believe they can exist any other way as an industry giant. The conglomerate provides the ability to sustain operations and preserve liquidity while individual segments fluctuate up and down. You can't have all your eggs in one basket today without gravely risking solvency. Consumers tire too easily absent product mix.
manning--- Why do CEO's make "announced inspection visit's"? Doesn't that defeat the idea? If a CEO or upper management wanted to really see how their business opperates, they should show up unannounced and maybe even in a little disguise. I often chuckle, the VP of the company I work for, (Hershey Entertainment and Resorts), looks like he could be Michael Eisner's twin brother. I could take a few photo's of him and our CEO together and start some wild rumors!
DVC-Landbaron
What Would Walt Do?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2000
- Messages
- 1,861
OH!!! Please, Manning Buddy! Let me take this one!!!
Yes it does defeat the purpose. So why does he do it!?!
Altogether now...
Because he is ------
INEPT!!!
Whew!! Thanks!! That felt good...
I don't have time for crusader right now, but I will later...
JonJehrio --- We are on the same page.
I saw this in the army. I worked in admin. Every time the general came thru on an announced visit we passed inspection. He finally got smart and showed up one day unannounced. Yep we failed.......big time.
crusader -- Conglomarates fail...if not managed correctly.
By the way here is a quote from an internal memo from Eisner.
Bottom line,...... the H*** with quality!!!!!!
-- Michael Eisner, CEO, The Walt Disney Co., (Internal Memo). Quoted from Mickey Mouse Monopoly-Disney, Childhood & Corporate Power (see also p.29 of the transcript which is provided as a link from this previous link.)
You will find this at http://www.globalissues.org/HumanRights/Media/Corporations/Owners.asp#Disney
Scary!!!!!!
---------------------------
Hand in hand partners......extreme Greed and failure.
I saw this in the army. I worked in admin. Every time the general came thru on an announced visit we passed inspection. He finally got smart and showed up one day unannounced. Yep we failed.......big time.
crusader -- Conglomarates fail...if not managed correctly.
By the way here is a quote from an internal memo from Eisner.
Bottom line,...... the H*** with quality!!!!!!
-- Michael Eisner, CEO, The Walt Disney Co., (Internal Memo). Quoted from Mickey Mouse Monopoly-Disney, Childhood & Corporate Power (see also p.29 of the transcript which is provided as a link from this previous link.)
You will find this at http://www.globalissues.org/HumanRights/Media/Corporations/Owners.asp#Disney
Scary!!!!!!
---------------------------
Hand in hand partners......extreme Greed and failure.
In regards to the original question of this forum, "Is Disney still Broken?"
I would say absolutely yes but with an explanation that its on the mend, slowly but in some respect its like having a full body cast after an accident.
I am honestly proud of all of the brave CM's that stayed in the parks to oversee the passing of Charly and immediately prepare the park to open immediately, much more should be given to these crews.
WDW on basically has poor CM morale, DL has the urgent need of major theme re-thinking. Such as a recent comment about looking always to the future in TL, and yet the subs revival is more themed upon Finding Nemo? If anything the subs should have a quest to explore the deepest parts of our oceans, like a Mission to Mars but instead we look down to undersea cities in a section of our planet that we know very little of...
We have more information of the moon and Mars than we do of the Mariannas Trench where pressures are 16,000 pounds per square inch!
However I'll leave that speculation to the Imagineers....
I would say absolutely yes but with an explanation that its on the mend, slowly but in some respect its like having a full body cast after an accident.
I am honestly proud of all of the brave CM's that stayed in the parks to oversee the passing of Charly and immediately prepare the park to open immediately, much more should be given to these crews.
WDW on basically has poor CM morale, DL has the urgent need of major theme re-thinking. Such as a recent comment about looking always to the future in TL, and yet the subs revival is more themed upon Finding Nemo? If anything the subs should have a quest to explore the deepest parts of our oceans, like a Mission to Mars but instead we look down to undersea cities in a section of our planet that we know very little of...
We have more information of the moon and Mars than we do of the Mariannas Trench where pressures are 16,000 pounds per square inch!
However I'll leave that speculation to the Imagineers....
SnackyStacky
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 29, 2002
- Messages
- 6,799
I believe the IDEA came from a need for a place that ADULTS would feel comfortable.
Having said that, when he started to design it, I believe he designed it for everybody.
I don't really see what selling alcohol has to do with anything anyway. Even if I did believe that it was built exclusively for adults; the fact that no alcohol was sold only backs up my point that it was a place an adult would feel comfortable taking their children.
Anyway - to answer your question...you know the
part... I think it was BUILT with a focus on everybody.
DVC-Landbaron
What Would Walt Do?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2000
- Messages
- 1,861
I beg your pardon - EVERYONE!!
But I'm going to sidetrack this thread for just a minute because it occurred to me today at work that I was remiss!! Very remiss!!!!
I was so caught up on teaching Viking basic math (a task that proved to be impossible) and correct usage of examples (Vike!! Out of all those posts on THAT OTHER BOARD and you picked the weakest one imaginable!! Next time ask!! I could have given you some beauties that would have won your point HANDS DOWN!!!) Anyway...
I was so caught up that I forgot something very important!! So allow me to correct this without delay!!
Hi DisDuck!!!!
It's good to hear from you!! Drop in more often, I miss you input!!
Thanks all. Go ahead on with the debate now!! And as always...
HAVE FUN!!!
But I'm going to sidetrack this thread for just a minute because it occurred to me today at work that I was remiss!! Very remiss!!!!
I was so caught up on teaching Viking basic math (a task that proved to be impossible) and correct usage of examples (Vike!! Out of all those posts on THAT OTHER BOARD and you picked the weakest one imaginable!! Next time ask!! I could have given you some beauties that would have won your point HANDS DOWN!!!) Anyway...
I was so caught up that I forgot something very important!! So allow me to correct this without delay!!
Hi DisDuck!!!!
It's good to hear from you!! Drop in more often, I miss you input!!
Thanks all. Go ahead on with the debate now!! And as always...
HAVE FUN!!!
Thanks DVC... at least someone from the old crowd remembered me.
Tough to participate in this discussion.. seems like deja vu. I will look to see if anything is broken on Tuesday (8/24) when I go to MK. Then off to Tampa to move youngest back to school. One day you folks may see her on Broadway or a Dinner/Theater near you. For the 'old' ones here if you remember Allan Sherman my daughter starred as Sarah Jockman this summer in a local theater production of the 1992 off-broadway show Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh. Anyone in the tampa area this fall can catch her in one of the productions being done by her school, University of Tampa. She is auditioning for A Funny Thing Happened and an opera written by her vocal coach.
I will try to pop-in more frequently.
Tough to participate in this discussion.. seems like deja vu. I will look to see if anything is broken on Tuesday (8/24) when I go to MK. Then off to Tampa to move youngest back to school. One day you folks may see her on Broadway or a Dinner/Theater near you. For the 'old' ones here if you remember Allan Sherman my daughter starred as Sarah Jockman this summer in a local theater production of the 1992 off-broadway show Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh. Anyone in the tampa area this fall can catch her in one of the productions being done by her school, University of Tampa. She is auditioning for A Funny Thing Happened and an opera written by her vocal coach.
I will try to pop-in more frequently.
The # 1 reason for Disney's continued success, and the reason it stands above any other theme park, is because of the front line CM's. When I am there I always take time talking to the CM's in a variety of different places and in the past 10 years, only found 1 to be negative. All the others seemed really proud of the job they were doing and had excellant attitudes. Many of whome have worked there for many years. They are the "Front Line" Employees that keep the place going. I always enjoy talking to all the CM's from all over the world, from every walk of life.
DVC-Landbaron
What Would Walt Do?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2000
- Messages
- 1,861
JonJehrio,
I agree. But the broken part goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past CMs.
It goes to the heart of the philosophy!!!
Crusader.
I haven't forgotten. Just no time!!!! Either tonight (hopfully) or tomorrow for sure!!
I agree. But the broken part goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past CMs.
It goes to the heart of the philosophy!!!
Crusader.
I haven't forgotten. Just no time!!!! Either tonight (hopfully) or tomorrow for sure!!
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