Is buying an RV like buying a mattress?

[chartle]

1. Lastly, keep in mind your VEHICLE's GVRW as well. That's the TOTAL weight the Vehicle can tow/carry. So keeping the bikes on the CAR as opposed to the TT doesn't change the GVWR factor. Often times the VEHICLE is more of a limiting factor than the Trailer. Just because your Tow Vehicle CAN tow 4500 pounds, you still have other factors. If the GVWR of your vehicle is 7000 pounds and the "Dry Weight" of your vehicle is 2500 pounds, then you can tow 4500 pounds. HOWEVER, subtract the weight of all passengers (let's say 3 passengers at ~ 200 pounds.) Now you can only tow 3900 pounds. Now add luggage and bikes in the car. Perhaps another 200 pounds. Now you can only tow 3700 pounds. Now Fuel. 15 Gallons at about 6.3 pounds/gallon. Now you can tow ~ 3505

2. As a general rule of thumb, you probably want to keep your towed weight at a minimum of 10% of your max (and I go 20%). That's the Loaded Weight. While you CAN tow at max... anyone who has towed anything for any length of time will tell you it's not a good idea to be near max.

3. Not trying to change your mind on how you camp, just trying to help you make informed decisions. Good luck with your camping whether it's in a Tent, TT, 5er, or a Class A. The key is that in the end, you enjoy yourself.

1. I may be wrong but my understanding of GVWR is not the same as yours. The GVWR for my Jeep is 5,550 lbs. My vehicle weight must be 4,550 lbs because there is a sticker that says you can carry 1,000 lbs. So in that 1,000 lbs that includes the weight of the passengers, any thing extra you put in the Jeep AND the tongue weight of the trailer but not gas.

My jeep has a 4,500 lb tow weight and 450 lb tongue weight.

The trailer I'm looking at has a Dry weight of 2,840 lbs, a GVWR of 3,500 so it can carry 660 lbs which is everything including food, dishes, clothes etc. Also propane, water, other equipment and anything in the waste tanks. So 77% of my max.

2. I think I've found the lightest Bunk House with slide out that is not too expensive and is 3,500 GVWR so way under my 4,500. Also its the narrowest trailer you can get with a full length east west bed with is an issue since my Jeep also has a max frontal trailer area that even an official Jeep Social Care Specialist on a Jeep Cherokee forum can't fully explain. On this forum I see lots of people pulling large travel trailers and the worse that happens is that they get 6 mpg.

3. Yea there is a major spectrum of what camping is. Some staying at a Cabin think they are camping. Growing up my family had a super small hard top pop up and we never lived in it. We still cooked outside and never used the sink or the tiny cooler and the only hook up was power.

I'm sure we will slowly become more and more "Trailer Trash".

ETA: I see there are some more replies that I didn't see when I posted this.

 

[peg110]

@chartle You are correct. I was confussing GVWR and GCWR (which is the "Combined" weight).
However the GVWR is the total weight inclusive of the Vehicle, Fluids, passengers cargo and the "Tongue/Pin" weight (which is influenced by how much you load in the trailer and HOW you load the trailer. More to the front makes the Tongue weight more.).

The problem that is not always clear is what the DRY weight of the vrehicle (and what does it actually include). In the end the only true weight that matters is what the scales say at a particular point and if it exceeds the GVWR (or GCWR) you could be in trouble.

Sounds, though, like you have a handle on things and are keeping these points in mind. So again, I wish you a successful journey in getting your TT and hope that you have many happy trips with it.

 

[chartle]

The problem that is not always clear is what the DRY weight of the vrehicle (and what does it actually include). In the end the only true weight that matters is what the scales say at a particular point and if it exceeds the GVWR (or GCWR) you could be in trouble.

Yes they have a quoted dry weight with one these * next to it pointing to a disclaimer. I'm a little concerned that what we are looking at has options that are adding some sort of weight like the spare tire and carrier.

 

[FortForever]

One of our sons actually lives in a 2007 Keystone Cougar 34' w/2 slides, on our property. It's super nice and we have had no problems with it despite constant use. It used to be used for traveling, but he has lived in for the past few years. I'm impressed with the quality build of it, so I'm partial to Keystones.

I'm absolutely no tow expert, but I feel like you may be pushing the limits of your tow vehicle with a trailer that has dry weight of only 1,000 lbs under capacity. I was always under the impression that passengers, all contents of vehicle, all contents of trailer, and trailer itself had to be included in that tow capacity. I could be wrong. I hope someone will come along to clear this up.

We added over 1000 lbs to our total, just with a pop up, and we don't carry propane tanks or water (no pit stops in a pop up.) It was ridiculous how fast everything added up and a pop up doesn't even have that much storage. It doesn't feel like we have that much stuff but the scales disagreed with me.

 

[chartle]

I'm absolutely no tow expert, but I feel like you may be pushing the limits of your tow vehicle with a trailer that has dry weight of only 1,000 lbs under capacity. I was always under the impression that passengers, all contents of vehicle, all contents of trailer, and trailer itself had to be included in that tow capacity. I could be wrong. I hope someone will come along to clear this up.

No only whats in the trailer counts as tow capacity. The only thing that adds to the Jeep capacity is the tongue weight.

So we can put 1,000 minus the tongue weight in the Jeep, thats people and cargo but not fuel and 660 lb in the trailer. At max GVWR for the trailer we are at 77% of the tow capacity of our Jeep.

We liked the Keystone but didn't like the width and the price. I've heard horror stories on the Jeep Forums of getting 6 mpg towing a big frontal area trailer. We did like that you had some space without a slide out but now think a narrow trailer with a slide out is the best. But who knows we may get one without a slide out and save the weight. We just can't all sit at the table.

 

[FortForever]

No only whats in the trailer counts as tow capacity. The only thing that adds to the Jeep capacity is the tongue weight.

So we can put 1,000 minus the tongue weight in the Jeep, thats people and cargo but not fuel and 660 lb in the trailer. At max GVWR for the trailer we are at 77% of the tow capacity of our Jeep.

Glad to hear that, for myself as well. I was counting all the passengers and gear that are in our van into the tow weight. It makes me feel better. We tow and stop very easily, and get great gas mileage, but on some of the camping forums I belong to people act like you need a semi to tow a golf cart. I guess we have more wiggle room than I thought. Thanks.

 

[2goofycampers]

I agree with FF, all weights have to be counted. This is from a towing site.

In 1998, the federal government passed a law that limits the mass of a vehicle that can be towed. Along with a vehicle's stated towing capacity, there are other factors that must be considered in regard to towing, including ball weight. Ball weight refers to the weight that resides on the ball hitch. The towing capacity of a truck, jeep, or other vehicle can usually be found in the owner's manual. You must also account for the combined weight of the vehicle you are driving, the weight of everything packed in the vehicle being towed, passengers, and fuel.

 

[chartle]

I agree with FF, all weights have to be counted. This is from a towing site.

In 1998, the federal government passed a law that limits the mass of a vehicle that can be towed. Along with a vehicle's stated towing capacity, there are other factors that must be considered in regard to towing, including ball weight. Ball weight refers to the weight that resides on the ball hitch. The towing capacity of a truck, jeep, or other vehicle can usually be found in the owner's manual. You must also account for the combined weight of the vehicle you are driving, the weight of everything packed in the vehicle being towed, passengers, and fuel.

Yes and all of those are are covered. I've been following threads in a Jeep Cherokee forum for the past 3 years*.

• The carrying weight of the Jeep Cherokee (not Grand) is 1,000 (GVWR - Weight of Jeep dry with gas)
• Towing capacity of the Jeep is 4,500 lbs with tongue weight 450 lbs. I have a sort of goal not to exceed 75% of this rating and fully loaded we are at 77%
• Trailer's GVWR is 3,500 lbs with a carrying capacity of 660 lbs.
• In a perfect world with the trailer within those specs we cab carry a total of 1,660 lbs. Thats stuff that can only really be in the trailer propane, water, waste optional equipment installed and stuff that can only really be in the Jeep aka People, maybe pets AND the properly balanced tongue weight of the trailer.
• Some stuff will stay with the camper. Stuff like dedicated pots and pans, silverware, light dining canopy (not an Easy Up) and other stuff we only use camping.
• So everything else gets split up between 2 vehicles. Depending on the trip we will probably not carry water and maybe not even most food.

* In these Jeep forums heated threads pop up and are usually closed just like Tipping threads here. Its on the towing capacity of a Jeep Cherokee because if you get the Towing Package factory installed on a V6 (hitch 4 and 7 pin wiring, bigger cooling and alternator, lower rear gear ratio, anti-sway programming and full size spare) you get the 4,500 rating if all the parts are dealer installed, officially you only get 2,000. Some buyers get screwed when the dealer makes as part of the sale they include "dealer installed tow package" which for some was a hitch installed by U-Haul and 4 pin wiring. Some were lucky and the Dealer messed up and said "Deal installed Factory Tow Package" which while it cost the dealer maybe 4 taimes as much but officially its still only 2,000 lbs.

 

[mickeyfan0805]

Glad to hear that, for myself as well. I was counting all the passengers and gear that are in our van into the tow weight. It makes me feel better. We tow and stop very easily, and get great gas mileage, but on some of the camping forums I belong to people act like you need a semi to tow a golf cart. I guess we have more wiggle room than I thought. Thanks.

As stated above - ALL WEIGHTS come off the total capacity (GCWR) of a vehicle, not just what is in a trailer. The GCWR is a reflection of engine power, stopping power, chassis construct, etc... Thus, it is a max of EVERYTHING your vehicle can reasonably pull (as opposed to what it can carry, which is GVWR). Towing capacity is simply a calculation of subtracting the base weight of the vehicle (often including a 150lb driver) from the GCWR. Thus, anything else you add to the vehicle itself (gear, people, pets, etc...) is deducted from the max as well. What is left is what you are rated for.

The base calculations...

Gross Combine Weight Rating > Vehicle curb weight + driver + all passengers + all gear and items in the tow vehicle + hitch assembly + entire weight of loaded trailer.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating > Vehicle curb weight + driver + all passengers + all gear and items in the tow vehicle + hitch assembly + tongue weight (often 10-15% of trailer weight.

 

[chartle]

Gross Combine Weight Rating > Vehicle curb weight + driver + all passengers + all gear and items in the tow vehicle + hitch assembly + entire weight of loaded trailer.

As far as I and everyone who tows on a Jeep Cherokee 2014+ specific forum knows I don't have a Gross Combined Weight Rating just a GVWR of 5550 with a people and cargo carrying capacity of 1,000 lbs and yes I've looked at the sticker in my door jamb. They talk about it the manual but give no numbers. Since I have a V6 with factory tow package I can tow 4,500 lbs which my plan is not to get anywhere near that.

After actually seeing the model of trailer that we think we like, a KZ Sportsmen Classic 181BH, I'm thinking to lose the slide out and its weight, a 180BH. The spec on the KV website says carrying capacity 660 lb but as it was built sitting on the lot it was 470 lb. I prefer this one because its the narrowest of all the bunk houses so the least frontal area.

 

[tigger92662]

Maybe try this. See if the dealer (might be a stretch for them) will let you hook it up and take it for a "test drive".
If at all possible, and if there is one near by, take it to a local truck stop and pay the couple $$ and weigh everything.

 

[chartle]

Maybe try this. See if the dealer (might be a stretch for them) will let you hook it up and take it for a "test drive".
If at all possible, and if there is one near by, take it to a local truck stop and pay the couple $$ and weigh everything.

Thats a thought though I would have to install a trailer brake controller. Its already has a 7 pin connector and a wiring harness under the dash ready to go.

I think I'm going to look up the same trailer at other dealers to see what they say for dry weight.

 

[mickeyfan0805]

Thats a thought though I would have to install a trailer brake controller. Its already has a 7 pin connector and a wiring harness under the dash ready to go.

I think I'm going to look up the same trailer at other dealers to see what they say for dry weight.

If they won't let you test it (which might be a stretch, don't know), maybe they will take it to a scale for you? Is there one close by?

 

[chartle]

Ok Update. Last week we bought a KZ 180BH WITHOUT the slide out. We looked at the one with the slide out on the lot and as built it had a carry weight of only 470 lbs which is way too low.

The non slide out, from the placard on the trailer, has a dry weight of 2750, so we in theory can load 750 lbs of stuff and hit the GVWR of 3,500. I think without liquids I can keep the amount of stuff to 300 lbs. i have a postal type scale that goes to 250 lbs and all our camping stuff that's not air mattresses and tents and stuff we won't take is in maybe 4 totes. So as we pull it out of the attic (its going to be so nice not having to drag it all down 2 sets of steps) we can weight it.

Now we just have to figure if we can swing a trip to the Fort next summer. My sister is planning a trip and wants to pull their new much bigger TT down to WDW. My thought is yes we can go but maybe save some money and not go into the parks or maybe just do 2 days at US. I'm hoping its just my wife and I and not my son because it means he would have a real full time job after he graduates next May.

Whats the current deal with a TT in tent pop up spots? My 20 foot tip to tail is much shorter than some of the huge pop ups we saw with slide outs. I know my sister's rig would have to be in a full hook up since she is much longer and with a slide out.

ETA: Our Jeep does not have a GC(ombined)WR just a GVWR which is Jeep, people, stuff in the Jeep and the hitch weight.

At full GVWR of the trailer of 3,500 its 77% of my towing capacity. Again without fluids and food I think we can get away with only putting 300 lbs in the trailer which takes us to 3,050 lbs and 67% of my my towing rating.

 

[peg110]

@chartle at 77% you should be good. You might not have a declared GCWR, but I suspect then, it's probably the GVWR + the Towing capacity of 4500#. It's possible that the manufacturer doesn't need to "Declare" it because the actual GCWR is higher than the GVWR + 4500. GCWR factors a lot of things such as stress on the engine, stress on the frames and weight distribution on the tires. Since the GVWR is loaded (including a max tongue weight) that could be the reason. Anyway, it seems like you have crunched the numbers and are good with them. Being 23% under the towing capacity is pretty good I think.

Now the next hurdle you will deal with is wrestling with the self argument (usually after the first couple of trips) of "Should I upgrade to a bigger....... ?" Part of me wants bigger, part of me wants smaller. Part of me would be happy with a tent. Oh well... we deal with whatever happens...

Either way, enjoy your camper and have an awesome trip when you go.

 

[chartle]

@chartle at 77% you should be good. You might not have a declared GCWR, but I suspect then, it's probably the GVWR + the Towing capacity of 4500#. It's possible that the manufacturer doesn't need to "Declare" it because the actual GCWR is higher than the GVWR + 4500. GCWR factors a lot of things such as stress on the engine, stress on the frames and weight distribution on the tires. Since the GVWR is loaded (including a max tongue weight) that could be the reason. Anyway, it seems like you have crunched the numbers and are good with them. Being 23% under the towing capacity is pretty good I think.

The consensus on a Jeep Forum I've been following from day one is pretty much this.

Now the next hurdle you will deal with is wrestling with the self argument (usually after the first couple of trips) of "Should I upgrade to a bigger....... ?" Part of me wants bigger, part of me wants smaller. Part of me would be happy with a tent. Oh well... we deal with whatever happens...

Either way, enjoy your camper and have an awesome trip when you go.

Well right now its me my wife and only one of my adult children that's finishing up a 4 year accounting degree in a year. As for the one with his own DW they live 3,000 miles apart so the chance of Disney Grandchildren is pretty slim.

I've picked our first campsite for a trial run. Its a state park only 30 minutes away so if we forget anything we can just go home and get it.

 

[tiggerdad]

75% is what I've always been told and tried to stick to, so your 77% is right in line with what should be fine.

 

[chartle]

75% is what I've always been told and tried to stick to, so your 77% is right in line with what should be fine.

I hope its much less since I can't imagine putting 750 lbs in it. Thats maybe 3 times the amount stuff we take for car tent camping.

Well Unless my wife does this. (Skip to 5:00 if you want)

 

[Teamubr]

I hope its much less since I can't imagine putting 750 lbs in it.

I think you're safe. My first camper was a hybrid. I could only get 4-500 lbs of stuff in it, including full water tanks, food and "stuff". I pulled it with an Explorer and it was a great combo. When I moved up to a 33 ft TT and then 5 ers, I consistently carry about a 1,000 lbs of "stuff". The newest 5er has 3000 lbs of CCC and unless I'm carrying sand bags, I could never get there.

j