Is anyone getting as turned off as I am?

[Disney Frenhines]

Just for some background....
I live in Florida and have been going to Disney for over 40 years.
Recently, though, I've noticed changes that are turning me off to want to visit, or spend my money there.
For example: * the fastpass+ thing and having to plan before you go.
* ending the American Adventure Fife and Drum Corp. (and not replacing it with any other patriotic program)
* people reserving throwaway campsites at Fort Wilderness just to get their magic bands
*......and don't get me started on those!
* and now we're gonna have to start paying between 10 and 20 dollars just to park at Downtown Disney.
* oh, and Starbucks

The list goes on, but these are just a few at the tip of my fingers.
Sorry. Had to vent.

The magic seems to be missing out on a lot of people. It's quite disheartening to see the attitude of both Disney and the guests. I'm not bothered about the Starbucks, but, no cinnamon rolls? That was what I hated. BTW, has anyone else been mineswept at Starbucks, that is, they put your drink on the counter call out your name and before you get there someone else has swiped it. if it was taken in error then why not return it, I'd like to believe the man I saw taking the Grande Low Fat Latte for D**** did it in error, but, he didn't return it in the 10 minutes I had to wait to get a replacement.

 

[OtherScott]

My biggest frustration is that so much of what Disney does these days seems to be replacing something else. Maybe that's so they can maintain their labor costs? I don't know. But they keep packing the crowds into the parks, but move like molasses at adding net new capacity. NFL is nice, but only has 1 net new ride. Test Track adding no new capacity. I hear the new parade is nice, but once again no net new capacity.

FP+ and its tiering really highlighted their attraction capacity issues. Yet they don't seem to want to address that.

I think the first thing you need to do when addressing capacity is make sure you get the most out of existing capacity.

 

[OtherScott]

I have yet to experience NFL (that will be next month!), and I'm looking forward to that, as well as the new parade. Besides that, the only new offering at WDW, since our last visit in 2011, will be the revamped Test Track. Is that enough new stuff for a three year gap? I don't know. Universal does seem to be adding to their parks at a faster clip (Diagon Alley, Transformers, Despicable Me, and the new Simpsons stuff all opened since 2011).

It seems that Comcast/Universal is taking a "build it and they will come" philosophy on faith, whereas Disney is taking a cold, calculating "let's do a careful cost/benefit analysis before greenlighting anything" approach. And Disney pulled the trigger on MM/MB/FP+, when that billion+ (is it closer to $2 billion by now?) could have bought a bunch of great new E Tickets. That was their priority, because this new system allows them to track our preferences, and treat the parks even more like giant malls.

When it comes to adding to park infrastructure, this company seems to consistently do the minimum they think they can get away with. Even the massive DCA expansion was practically forced on them -- we never would have gotten Cars Land if DCA had been a hit right out of the box (which they inexplicably seemed to expect at the time).

Speaking of Cars Land, that is an example of what they're capable of, when they finally decide to commit the resources necessary to create something great. Yes they add to their parks, but it all seems to be so grudging, so gradual, and never matches the blistering pace of new DVCs, new hard ticket events, and new hotels.

I'm not one to criticize everything Disney does; they have done some things right. But competition is biting at their heels, their most loyal fans are grumbling, and it's time for more forward, long term thinking from this company. Time to tune out the bean counters and the hotshot MBA grads spouting the latest corporate buzzwords.

Disney, start listening to your fans and guests. When it comes to what we want, and what we are willing to pay for, we're the real experts.

Disney has >10 million guest per year. The parks are profitable because they sufficiently satisfy enough of them, no?

 

[mom2rtk]

Are you saying the additions to Fantasyland didn't add capacity? New rides, new restaurants, new shops?

All this seems to boil down yet again to the fact that while some people want change, they only want the change they deem necessary. And never are people going to agree 100% on what that change should be. And some people just abhor any change.

I don't like some of the changes Disney has made or is about to make. But it would be very arrogant for me to think that I know better than the people that run the company. I don't have access to their facts and figures and all of the numbers that go into making those sorts of decisions.

It is easy to run a company from the outside. (And I in no way directing this at Mom2rk. It is not meant as a personal attack on you, just to be clear! Only the part about capacity.)

I'm not talking about shops and restaurants. I'm talking attractions. I'm only saying that it is very frustrating that they seem so hesitant to just put in net new things. Everything seems to come with a loss of something else.

 

[kbelle8995]

Let's look at Fantasyland. The area is Beautiful. Belle's Enchanted tales is a very slow loader. Rare that the wait is ever under 80 minutes so very popular and again a slOOOW loader. Little mermaid repeat of what they have in California and I haven't tried to the Mine Train yet so I can't judge.

BOG has become "my vacation is ruined if I don't get in" restaurant to many guests. Good luck with that guests. At least it has some different merchandise.

 

[surferdave]

Disney has >10 million guest per year. The parks are profitable because they sufficiently satisfy enough of them, no?

We can cut short any discussion of the current and future quality of WDW with the solid expectation that Disney can continue to fill the parks no matter how bad they get at anything. Their reputation based on their history and ability to leverage previously untapped international markets will ensure that for a long time to come.

 

[goofy4tink]

I've been going to WDW at least once a year since '99....and most years it's twice and sometimes it's three or four times. I've held an AP for at least the past 10 years. So...does all this change bother me? In some cases, yes. I hated that Disney took away the LoW...they were a huge part of my Dec trips. They left the big tree with a 'show', but then took the 'show' away, leaving just that tree. But hey! Disney said that although they took away LoW, they were giving us wonderful gospel singers by the fountain. Yeah, that was comparable!!!
The parties? Don't get me started. When I first started going to the parties, you got a 5x7 photo, right there, on the spot. You got a special button. The cookie and cocoa stations were more frequent. So, they take away the photo (but started giving you a 'nice' postcard photo of characters), no more buttons, refreshment stations were more limited. Then? The horror...they took away Mickey's Night Before Christmas! Seriously? This show was sold out every single time I went..SRO. All while raising the prices and selling more tickets.
The Halloween party? Used to be my favorite. Not anymore. No more villians (at least the popular ones) out and about. You have to pay extra to see them...and they were my primary reason for going to the party. Candy stations were taken away. And the special merchandise at both these parties is in no way nearly as good, or as unique, as it used to be. So, no more parties for me.

FP+? I don't have an issue with it. I think that if you go at the more busy times of year, it is going to be hard to do other attractions standby as well as FP+ attractions......long standby lines prohibit that to some extent. But if you can go at less busy times, it works wonderfully. It suits my style of touring the parks, but it's not for everyone.

I find the CMs to be less attentive than in the past. I have heard stories from CMs that make me wonder how Disney can hold onto good people. I am really concerned about my 20 y/o dd's desire to work for Disney at this point. The younger CMs continue holding private conversations with each other even as the guests approach them. They give you a 'why are you interrupting us' look if you ask them a question. Yes, there are some truly wonderful CMs at WDW...and I ran into a lot of them. But, I also found a lot more less than wonderful CMs these past two trips (early Sept and early June '14).

I am not renewing my AP in Dec. Why? Well, there are other things I want to do with my travel dollars. I want to visit my dd in London when she does her semester abroad there next fall. I'm heading to San Diego in early Dec to visit friends and we're driving up to DL for two days/one night...staying at the VGC for a night. Yes, I own DVC..at both BWV and BLT. I do have onetrip left in Nov...Food and Wine Half Marathon weekend. After that, no more for awhile. I just don't think I'm going to miss those frequent trips to WDW. Maybe in a year or so I'll go back. Too frequent visits may have bred contempt, so to speak. Will Disney miss my dollars? Nope, not at all. Besides, there are plenty of people going for the first or second time that won't have the same feelings a lot of us have. They will think its all wonderful. But.....with the cost of a trip to WDW going up so much, Disney had best be careful....they may find fewer and fewer first time (or once in a lifetime) guests booking. And those of us that go often, will start rethinking our vacation plans

As I said, I have no issue with FP+, MB's or most other stuff. Taking away the live entertainment at Epcot? Not so happy about that. I enjoyed being able to sit and relax for a bit while listening/watching some of these shows. I teared up a bit while watching Off Kilter a week ago..knew it was for the last time...and that makes me sad. One of my favorite things about Epcot's WS.

Now? WDW has a certain sameness wherever you go within the resort. It used to be that you could get unique stuff at each store or resort. Not anymore. I now don't have to buy something when I see it because I might not see it again! I can wait and buy it all at the World of Disney store in DTD. And when I do that, I tend to spend less since it all adds up quickly. So, I'm spending less.

I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens with all the changes being made. Until I see them I'll withhold judgement. But, I don't think they are going to be welcome changes.

 

[MouseClubMama]

Are you saying the additions to Fantasyland didn't add capacity? New rides, new restaurants, new shops?

All this seems to boil down yet again to the fact that while some people want change, they only want the change they deem necessary. And never are people going to agree 100% on what that change should be. And some people just abhor any change.

I don't like some of the changes Disney has made or is about to make. But it would be very arrogant for me to think that I know better than the people that run the company. I don't have access to their facts and figures and all of the numbers that go into making those sorts of decisions.

It is easy to run a company from the outside. (And I in no way directing this at Mom2rk. It is not meant as a personal attack on you, just to be clear! Only the part about capacity.)

There is a difference between arrogance, and constructive criticism. I don't think anyone here is pompous enough to believe that they have the ultimate knowledge about Disney park operations; that said we come to this forum to share our personal opinions, and to try to gather some insight from each other. If we did not give a hoot about what is happening to Disney we would not be bothered to take the time out of our day to post on the DIS. I think many posters have developed a great 'art' for kicking around ideas that many of us find both entertaining, and informative.

 

[OtherScott]

We can cut short any discussion of the current and future quality of WDW with the solid expectation that Disney can continue to fill the parks no matter how bad they get at anything. Their reputation based on their history and ability to leverage previously untapped international markets will ensure that for a long time to come.

I was responding to this line:

Disney, start listening to your fans and guests. When it comes to what we want, and what we are willing to pay for, we're the real experts.

I'm merely saying that even within the self-selecting populace of this forum, how would Disney determine "what we want and what we're willing to pay for?" The objective answer comes in the form of free exchange based on the collective compromises of millions of people.

Certainly reputation plays into this, but when reputation meets personal experience it is affected one way or the other.

 

[JanaDee]

One thing that never changes that I wish would change is people telling me that I just don't like change when I don't like a specific change. Can we change that, or do you just not like change?

 

[RedSox68]

Nope you are not alone.

I too have been going to Disney for a long time.

1). Not much for FP+. Tried it not for me
2). Tired of all the extras Disney keeps pushing, Extra parties, dessert parties.
3). WARY of Magic Bands due to Sensitive skin. Let's just say it's just not wise to put a piece of plastic on my wrist during a hot day.
4). I am on the fence about the performers. Trying to judge performers, I just don't think the new ones translate well on page. I will miss the Fife and Drum Corp, Come on that's heritage.

I am going to give Universal a try on my next trip. on

We've been to WDW 5 times -- our 6th trip coming this December. We have done Universal twice. As the years have progressed, we are finding that Universal is FAR easier to plan, much cheaper (better package deals), very nice hotels and some great places to eat -- none of which you need to book 180 days out to get a table! In planning our trip this December, we are doing both Universal and Disney. Universal took me all of a day to plan and layout our dining options. Disney is still a work in progress trying to secure dining reservations for several restaurants -- I'd be happy to just get ONE, and the logistics of the FP and park planning is overwhelming. Slowly, my family is leaning toward Universal more and more each year. Plus their "park hoppers" are half of Disney's price! Don't get me wrong, we still love Disney, but they are going too far with relying on loyal customers while they ding us for every dime (even on the cruise lines). It does get tiring and disappointing. I feel like with Disney, we have to keep proving our loyalty. JMO

 

[RedSox68]

When it comes to Disney I don't miss a beat. It is all well and good if you are satisfied with the new FL, and the promise of Avatar Land. The reality of the situation is that the FL improvements have done little to satisfy the majority of Disney's customer base who are weary of paying more and getting less. The MK is screaming for major new attractions, and the 7DMT is clearly not in this category, and don't even get me started on EPCOT. It will take a considerable amount of time before we see Avatar or Star Wars attractions, and I have serious reservations about the whole Avatar idea .

By the time they open Avatar, there will be a whole generation who doesn't even know what it is

 

[FLchick415]

By the time they open Avatar, there will be a whole generation who doesn't even know what it is

Much like how there are probably tons of kids (because I'm assuming most adults know) that don't know where the theme for Splash Mountain came from?

 

[dwheaton]

I feel like we need to separate the discussion of our personal experiences at Disney with their attendance numbers. Also, just because Disney is drawing large crowds, it doesn't mean that everything is great. We're all customers of Disney, so each individual experience does matter to how the company functions. They may be hitting record attendance, but could it be even higher if they did a better job?

I was just listening to a Tony Baxter interview recently, and he talked about how Indiana Jones brought something like three million more people to the attendance after it opened. That's a huge number, especially by Disneyland standards in the '90s.

Disney World is a bit different, but I still feel like that's forgotten in some of the talk about why Disney is making new attractions. Let's say they draw 17 million to the Magic Kingdom. Could they draw 20 million if they added an amazing ride? This is why it's tricky to just say "Disney is doing great and the parks are crowded" and shut down talk they're struggling on the creative side.

Also, if people are going to Disney now and not having their best experience, we won't really see the attendance impact for several years. Trips are planned well in advance, and the numbers from 2014 won't reflect any dip in quality or experience.

 

[RedSox68]

I feel like we need to separate the discussion of our personal experiences at Disney with their attendance numbers. Also, just because Disney is drawing large crowds, it doesn't mean that everything is great. We're all customers of Disney, so each individual experience does matter to how the company functions. They may be hitting record attendance, but could it be even higher if they did a better job?

I was just listening to a Tony Baxter interview recently, and he talked about how Indiana Jones brought something like three million more people to the attendance after it opened. That's a huge number, especially by Disneyland standards in the '90s.

Disney World is a bit different, but I still feel like that's forgotten in some of the talk about why Disney is making new attractions. Let's say they draw 17 million to the Magic Kingdom. Could they draw 20 million if they added an amazing ride? This is why it's tricky to just say "Disney is doing great and the parks are crowded" and shut down talk they're struggling on the creative side.

Also, if people are going to Disney now and not having their best experience, we won't really see the attendance impact for several years. Trips are planned well in advance, and the numbers from 2014 won't reflect any dip in quality or experience.

And that's it in a nutshell

Very well put indeed.

 

[msb578]

I feel like we need to separate the discussion of our personal experiences at Disney with their attendance numbers. Also, just because Disney is drawing large crowds, it doesn't mean that everything is great. We're all customers of Disney, so each individual experience does matter to how the company functions. They may be hitting record attendance, but could it be even higher if they did a better job? I was just listening to a Tony Baxter interview recently, and he talked about how Indiana Jones brought something like three million more people to the attendance after it opened. That's a huge number, especially by Disneyland standards in the '90s. Disney World is a bit different, but I still feel like that's forgotten in some of the talk about why Disney is making new attractions. Let's say they draw 17 million to the Magic Kingdom. Could they draw 20 million if they added an amazing ride? This is why it's tricky to just say "Disney is doing great and the parks are crowded" and shut down talk they're struggling on the creative side. Also, if people are going to Disney now and not having their best experience, we won't really see the attendance impact for several years. Trips are planned well in advance, and the numbers from 2014 won't reflect any dip in quality or experience.

I've heard people suggest that Disney doesn't want MK to grow anymore, because it's already choking on its own crowds during some parts of the year. However, EPCOT and AK are huge parks, that don't draw 17 million people!

It seems like MK is going to be wildly popular for years to come. But if Future World continues to be a monument/shrine to the 1980's, I can't see Epcot being a place that people are repeatedly drawn to. I overheard a conversation among teens at the AS food court recently. They were excited about 3 Epcot rides- wanting to just ride those over and over, since they were being forced to go to Epcot.

We do know that Avatar is coming to AK, and we *think* Star Wars will grow in DHS. But what the heck are they going to do with Epcot to keep people interested? Besides Food and Wine?

 

[OtherScott]

I feel like we need to separate the discussion of our personal experiences at Disney with their attendance numbers. Also, just because Disney is drawing large crowds, it doesn't mean that everything is great. We're all customers of Disney, so each individual experience does matter to how the company functions. They may be hitting record attendance, but could it be even higher if they did a better job?

I was just listening to a Tony Baxter interview recently, and he talked about how Indiana Jones brought something like three million more people to the attendance after it opened. That's a huge number, especially by Disneyland standards in the '90s.

Disney World is a bit different, but I still feel like that's forgotten in some of the talk about why Disney is making new attractions. Let's say they draw 17 million to the Magic Kingdom. Could they draw 20 million if they added an amazing ride? This is why it's tricky to just say "Disney is doing great and the parks are crowded" and shut down talk they're struggling on the creative side.

Also, if people are going to Disney now and not having their best experience, we won't really see the attendance impact for several years. Trips are planned well in advance, and the numbers from 2014 won't reflect any dip in quality or experience.

We might just differ on semantics. Individual experience only matters in the context of 17 million other individual experiences.

I haven't seen anyone saying "everything is great" at Disney, as if that subjective description would have any practical meaning. What Disney is doing, objectively, is trading an experience for more money than it costs to produce/provide it.

Even those who express that the value of this exchange has shrunk for them personally still express interest in going.

Attendance could always be higher. It could be lower, too. Factors outside of Disney's control matter, too. Disney's competition extends far beyond Orlando and Anaheim, far beyond like and similar offerings.

 

[dwheaton]

I've heard people suggest that Disney doesn't want MK to grow anymore, because it's already choking on its own crowds during some parts of the year. However, EPCOT and AK are huge parks, that don't draw 17 million people!

It seems like MK is going to be wildly popular for years to come. But if Future World continues to be a monument/shrine to the 1980's, I can't see Epcot being a place that people are repeatedly drawn to. I overheard a conversation among teens at the AS food court recently. They were excited about 3 Epcot rides- wanting to just ride those over and over, since they were being forced to go to Epcot.

We do know that Avatar is coming to AK, and we *think* Star Wars will grow in DHS. But what the heck are they going to do with Epcot to keep people interested? Besides Food and Wine?

I was using MK just as an example, but I agree with your point. Disney has plenty to offer at the MK. Sure, I'd love to see Stitch replaced, but there are minor quibbles more than big issues. The same can't be said for EPCOT or even DHS. EPCOT is doing well because of World Showcase and a few rides, and I expect it gets a lot of locals (that's where I'd go if I lived there). If Universal is going to grab attendance, it will be from the other parks, not the MK.

 

[Praying Colonel]

goofy4tink, well said. With the exception of FP+*, I agree completely with everything you wrote. It expresses perfectly why we're not renewing our APs and why we have no plans to go back to WDW anytime soon.

We almost bought DVC in 2012--actually signed the papers, then cancelled a few days later. All of the things you mentioned make me so glad we didn't do it.





*--To say I dislike FP+ is an understatement of massive proportions. But even if it had never been invented, the other issues you raised--and many others--affect my current enjoyment of WDW to the point where we're going to spend our vacation time and $ elsewhere for awhile.

 

[OtherScott]

I've been going to WDW at least once a year since '99....and most years it's twice and sometimes it's three or four times. I've held an AP for at least the past 10 years. So...does all this change bother me? In some cases, yes. I hated that Disney took away the LoW...they were a huge part of my Dec trips. They left the big tree with a 'show', but then took the 'show' away, leaving just that tree. But hey! Disney said that although they took away LoW, they were giving us wonderful gospel singers by the fountain. Yeah, that was comparable!!!
The parties? Don't get me started. When I first started going to the parties, you got a 5x7 photo, right there, on the spot. You got a special button. The cookie and cocoa stations were more frequent. So, they take away the photo (but started giving you a 'nice' postcard photo of characters), no more buttons, refreshment stations were more limited. Then? The horror...they took away Mickey's Night Before Christmas! Seriously? This show was sold out every single time I went..SRO. All while raising the prices and selling more tickets.
The Halloween party? Used to be my favorite. Not anymore. No more villians (at least the popular ones) out and about. You have to pay extra to see them...and they were my primary reason for going to the party. Candy stations were taken away. And the special merchandise at both these parties is in no way nearly as good, or as unique, as it used to be. So, no more parties for me.

FP+? I don't have an issue with it. I think that if you go at the more busy times of year, it is going to be hard to do other attractions standby as well as FP+ attractions......long standby lines prohibit that to some extent. But if you can go at less busy times, it works wonderfully. It suits my style of touring the parks, but it's not for everyone.

I find the CMs to be less attentive than in the past. I have heard stories from CMs that make me wonder how Disney can hold onto good people. I am really concerned about my 20 y/o dd's desire to work for Disney at this point. The younger CMs continue holding private conversations with each other even as the guests approach them. They give you a 'why are you interrupting us' look if you ask them a question. Yes, there are some truly wonderful CMs at WDW...and I ran into a lot of them. But, I also found a lot more less than wonderful CMs these past two trips (early Sept and early June '14).

I am not renewing my AP in Dec. Why? Well, there are other things I want to do with my travel dollars. I want to visit my dd in London when she does her semester abroad there next fall. I'm heading to San Diego in early Dec to visit friends and we're driving up to DL for two days/one night...staying at the VGC for a night. Yes, I own DVC..at both BWV and BLT. I do have onetrip left in Nov...Food and Wine Half Marathon weekend. After that, no more for awhile. I just don't think I'm going to miss those frequent trips to WDW. Maybe in a year or so I'll go back. Too frequent visits may have bred contempt, so to speak. Will Disney miss my dollars? Nope, not at all. Besides, there are plenty of people going for the first or second time that won't have the same feelings a lot of us have. They will think its all wonderful. But.....with the cost of a trip to WDW going up so much, Disney had best be careful....they may find fewer and fewer first time (or once in a lifetime) guests booking. And those of us that go often, will start rethinking our vacation plans

As I said, I have no issue with FP+, MB's or most other stuff. Taking away the live entertainment at Epcot? Not so happy about that. I enjoyed being able to sit and relax for a bit while listening/watching some of these shows. I teared up a bit while watching Off Kilter a week ago..knew it was for the last time...and that makes me sad. One of my favorite things about Epcot's WS.

Now? WDW has a certain sameness wherever you go within the resort. It used to be that you could get unique stuff at each store or resort. Not anymore. I now don't have to buy something when I see it because I might not see it again! I can wait and buy it all at the World of Disney store in DTD. And when I do that, I tend to spend less since it all adds up quickly. So, I'm spending less.

I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens with all the changes being made. Until I see them I'll withhold judgement. But, I don't think they are going to be welcome changes.

Most reasonable post I've ever read.