iPad seems to make a great photo portfolio

[Bstanley]

Your reasoning for not liking Apple products is truly a philosophical one.

Not really (Well maybe in his case - I shouldn't speak for someone else).

What I mean is - most customers choose NOT to buy into a proprietary system (even if it is perceived as 'better'). This has been demonstrated over and over again in general - and specifically many times in the personal computing marketplace. Individual customers don't want to pay the extra price, business customers don't like being locked into one supplier.

IBM committed PC market seppuku with their Micro-Channel PCs.

Adobe lost their proprietary Type 1 font market because they wouldn't publish the specification until after 'Royal' (TrueType) fonts were introduced.

Apple market share in any market, except for the iPod, has been no more than 10% - forever.

Years ago in Houston there was a saying about going to Neiman-Marcus to shop. If the item listed for $150, $50 went to Neiman, $50 went to Marcus and $50 went to pay for the item.

The great majority of PC customers don't like spending money that way.

Apple will continue to have their 8% market share because there is often a compelling case for their products - especially when they are breaking new ground. But they will never have a 20% market share.


PS. And these days, with Apple having gone over to the Dark Side on their hardware, all it takes is an internet connection to learn how to install Snow Leopard on say...a Toshiba laptop. And at the end of the process own a MacBook Pro for less than half the price. Apple does make $150 or so on the sale of the OS though.

 

[mrcricket]

Not really (Well maybe in his case - I shouldn't speak for someone else).

What I mean is - most customers choose NOT to buy into a proprietary system (even if it is perceived as 'better'). This has been demonstrated over and over again in general - and specifically many times in the personal computing marketplace. Individual customers don't want to pay the extra price, business customers don't like being locked into one supplier.

IBM committed PC market seppuku with their Micro-Channel PCs.

Adobe lost their proprietary Type 1 font market because they wouldn't publish the specification until after 'Royal' (TrueType) fonts were introduced.

Apple market share in any market, except for the iPod, has been no more than 10% - forever.

Years ago in Houston there was a saying about going to Neiman-Marcus to shop. If the item listed for $150, $50 went to Neiman, $50 went to Marcus and $50 went to pay for the item.

The great majority of PC customers don't like spending money that way.

Apple will continue to have their 8% market share because there is often a compelling case for their products - especially when they are breaking new ground. But they will never have a 20% market share.


PS. And these days, with Apple having gone over to the Dark Side on their hardware, all it takes is an internet connection to learn how to install Snow Leopard on say...a Toshiba laptop. And at the end of the process own a MacBook Pro for less than half the price. Apple does make $150 or so on the sale of the OS though.

Whether you agree with my "philosophical" statement or not doesn't change the fact that it is just that which differentiates a PC buyer from an Apple buyer and vise versa. I've seen PC Magazine's tally for what a Mac cost compared to a comparable PC. The price isn't much different. Also, I don't care that Apple has about 10% of market share for their computers. I'm happy about that. It's like driving an exclusive car brand. It wouldn't be exclusive if everyone drove them. And because of that exclusivity, Apple Mac owners don't suffer with all of the viruses and attacks that PC users have to endure with. That's a fact.

I think we can agree on one thing. We all like our computers and systems for our own reasons. And that's what matters. I'm happy with my iPad, and my iMac, and my Mac Tower with 30 inch monitor, and my laptop (actually my DW's). My software (Adobe CS4 product line) works great on them. And that's what I need to do my work. These computers are my tools of choice.

 

[photo_chick]

PS. And these days, with Apple having gone over to the Dark Side on their hardware, all it takes is an internet connection to learn how to install Snow Leopard on say...a Toshiba laptop. And at the end of the process own a MacBook Pro for less than half the price. Apple does make $150 or so on the sale of the OS though.

Very true... but many who buy Apple products do so because they are sold on the fact that it is so much "easier" than Windows. THat's what the commercials tell us, right? The average consumer does not change the OS that comes on their machine... I'm not talking about tech heads or those who build thier own, but the average person who buys a box off the shelf.

Then there is the fact that Apple charges for minor OS updates, where MS gives them away. A good expample of this is looking at Windows XP and OS X. Both came out around the same time, yet I haven't had to pay for 5 XP updates to keep current.

 

[NateNLogansDad]

Common sense would suggest that Microsoft will eventually be coming out with their own version fairly soon. They know they blew it in the MP3 market taking way too long to release the Zune. There have been "Leaked" photos out of their prototype for months now and, if they are correct, it should be a nice little tablet with a bigger market.

The one thing that MS will be able to blast Apple with is the multitasking functionality. Honestly I'm shocked they really haven't added the ability. Why keep it acting like an Ipod touch?

I will give it to them, it does look pretty.

 

[Bstanley]

Whether you agree with my "philosophical" statement or not doesn't change the fact that it is just that which differentiates a PC buyer from an Apple buyer and vise versa. I've seen PC Magazine's tally for what a Mac cost compared to a comparable PC. The price isn't much different.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I think what you're saying is that I'm wrong about my cost claim - that price is NOT the reason most people resist buying a Mac and instead buy a Windows PC. That the primary reason is because they subscribe to the 'Barbieri' philosophy - ie. they desire the ability to install a non-Apple OS or non-Apple software.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

I should say - to some degree it is true that Macs are more expensive because of the technology they use. This is particularly true with regards to their laptops - for example they use better screens (which are more expensive) than the great majority of Windows based laptops.

If Joe Average could walk into a store and buy an iMac for anywhere near the price of a Windows PC - they would do it! Macs have significantly better Industrial Design, a modestly better OS and are certainly viewed as superior by the great mass of customers - so why don't they buy them? Well, PC Magazine may claim the price isn't that different, but all you have to do is go to a Best Buy to know that the price is really that different - a quick example from their website a 21" iMac costs $1200 and a very similar 20" Gateway (Acer) costs $700.

The same principle is at work here as buying an exclusive car brand. If a BMW cost the same as a Chevy - why would anybody buy a Chevy?

If you find that the value offered by Apple/Mac exceeds your needs - that's kewl. No different than buying a BMW instead of a Chevy. But most people aren't avoiding Mac because they can even spell 'proprietary' - they simply don't think the Mac value equation is compelling.

 

[aalan]

Something else to consider: sometime this month (according to my local Apple store), Apple will come out with a cable to download files directly to the Ipad from your digital camera. So that sounds pretty cool.

And while it has nothing to do with photography, the free Netflix app that lets you stream their free tv shows and movies (as long as you have an existing account) is also mighty sweet.

It's obvious from saturday's sales that the Ipad is a hit. I do not think the Ipad will be huge like the Iphone or Ipod, but its a game changer. I do not NEED to have one, but will probably get one: its just such a nice screen, and also a very sleek device.

The truth is: Apple needs Microsoft and Microsoft needs Apple. Apple needs to be reminded that they only have roughly 10% of the market, and that they need to be the innovators at a fair price. Microsoft needs to be reminded that just because they have the market covered, doesn't mean they can keep pushing junk on consumers (anyone remember Windows ME?). The zealots on either side do not like hearing it, but without one or the other company, we would have a monopoly, and that's never good for the consumer. Both companies are also in business to make $$$$$. Hopefully, both Apple and Microsoft will continue to be successful and continue to push each other.

 

[mrcricket]

If Joe Average could walk into a store and buy an iMac for anywhere near the price of a Windows PC - they would do it! Macs have significantly better Industrial Design, a modestly better OS and are certainly viewed as superior by the great mass of customers - so why don't they buy them? Well, PC Magazine may claim the price isn't that different, but all you have to do is go to a Best Buy to know that the price is really that different - a quick example from their website a 21" iMac costs $1200 and a very similar 20" Gateway (Acer) costs $700

This is the point that PC Magazine has made several years in a row. That Gateway machine priced at $700 isn't really comparable to what comes standard on the Mac. Processor, graphics card, ram, size and speed of hard drive, quality of construction and screen, etc. must all be considered when looking at true value. PC Magazine has done the side by side comparison for several years and they've shown that the $700 Gateway/Acer/Dell needs about $450 dollars in upgrades to be comparable to the $1200 Mac. That's all I'm saying. If you don't need the upgrades then the value isn't reallly a value. This why I say you have to buy what is right for your needs.

 

[ukcatfan]

If you don't need the upgrades then the value isn't reallly a value. This why I say you have to buy what is right for your needs.

You have to realize that probably 90% of consumers of computers have no clue what makes a better computer. They only know what they can see with their eyes. So, a 20" screen for $700 is a much better deal than a 21" for $1,200. It is sad, but so very true!

 

[ukcatfan]

Something else to consider: sometime this month (according to my local Apple store), Apple will come out with a cable to download files directly to the Ipad from your digital camera. So that sounds pretty cool.

I am assuming from this that it does not have a memory card reader or USB port then? If so, then that is pretty sad.

It's obvious from saturday's sales that the Ipad is a hit. I do not think the Ipad will be huge like the Iphone or Ipod, but its a game changer. I do not NEED to have one, but will probably get one: its just such a nice screen, and also a very sleek device.

From what I read, the HP model coming out this year is going to be better, so if you do not need it right now, I would wait to see what everyone else offers.

The truth is: Apple needs Microsoft and Microsoft needs Apple. Apple needs to be reminded that they only have roughly 10% of the market, and that they need to be the innovators at a fair price. Microsoft needs to be reminded that just because they have the market covered, doesn't mean they can keep pushing junk on consumers (anyone remember Windows ME?). The zealots on either side do not like hearing it, but without one or the other company, we would have a monopoly, and that's never good for the consumer. Both companies are also in business to make $$$$$. Hopefully, both Apple and Microsoft will continue to be successful and continue to push each other.

Sounds like Disney and Universal...

 

[photo_chick]

Something else to consider: sometime this month (according to my local Apple store), Apple will come out with a cable to download files directly to the Ipad from your digital camera. So that sounds pretty cool.

When the iPod photo came out they had an adapter that let you hook your camera up and download images. It ate battery life like crazy. And it was only useful for jpegs, unless you just wanted to use the iPod as a portable hard drive.

I can see the applications possible with this feature in the iPad, especially if they have a good RAW viewer. But I don't think the device specs are quite what they need to be to really make it work well yet.

 

[Bstanley]

they've shown that the $700 Gateway/Acer/Dell needs about $450 dollars in upgrades to be comparable to the $1200 Mac

First - I believe PC Mag is being extraordinarily generous when they say $450.

I only see 3 hardware differences between the two :

1. Processor - E7600/3GHz ($110) vs. T4300/2Ghz ($75)

2. Video H/W - GeForce 9400 ($45) vs. Intel x4500HD ($0 - comes with the chipset)

3. Screen - 21.5"/1920 x 1080 (Samsung 21.5" $180) vs. 20"/1600 x 900 (Acer 20" $130)
[Retail prices of actual monitors, video cards, processors]

So the total (retail) difference I see is - $45 + $45 + $50 = $140

Now back in the day when I was designing laptops for Compaq the retail price of a component was about 3 times the price that Compaq paid for it. Figure that today with the internet - ie Tigerdirect/Newegg/etc - that 'normal' people are getting better discounts - we'll say that today a retail price is only 2 times what a company will pay for something in bulk. So that means that the hardware cost to upgrade the Gateway(Acer) is in the neighborhood of $70 - now let's throw in some 'other' - better Quality Control at the various factories in southeast China that Apple contracts with (compared to the Acer factory that's probably next door), upgraded capacitors, more careful FCC Class B design, maybe better quality industrial plastics, better tooling so the fit/finish is better, etc. Add a few bucks for all that (only a few bucks though because a lot of that is amortized across an entire production run so it's only a buck or two per unit).

I would be amazed if the actual, fully burdened, landed cost at Cupertino is much more than $100 higher for the iMac.


Second - Even if PC Mag is spot on and the price really is the same - we are simply back to the BMW versus Chevy situation. Apple is not offering a large portion (apparently roughly 90%) of potential customers what those customers want - a less feature rich, but less expensive product. I'll say it again - most computer customers do not buy Macs because they view them as too expensive, not because they are concerned about being locked into Apple in some way.

The iPad may be a wonderful photo portfolio, but as soon as Acer cranks up their iPad clone factory there will be Touchpad "Netbooks" flying off the line with Chrome for the OS in mass quantities which will arguably be just as good.

And I don't think Apple really cares about that happening - as long as the iPads they sell keep making their ??% net (I would guess 25% - 30% depending on the unit) they will happily keep selling them to the people that find them a compelling product.

 

[photo_chick]

When it comes to comparing Windows machines to Macs many consumers look erroneously to processor speed to judge the difference. They see they can get a PC with a faster processing speed for less money than a Mac with a slower processor and they think it's a great deal. Or they can get a laptop with more of everything for less moeny.

They compared the iPad to a netbook when they unveiled it, saying it was better.... the average netbook does a lot more and costs half the price. The only thing netbooks lack is a touch screen and for some that's not a bad thing.

And Apple does charge a premium for their products. They always have and as long as they are still making money they always will. There was a time when a Mac truly was better for some applications, but that edge has long since been lost.

 

[Marlton Mom]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. The contributions from both "sides" are well thought out and very informed.

Now I'm going to speak from the perspective of a non technically savvy consumer that's been using computers since DOS and green screens.

I have friends who are devoted Apple fans. Back in the day Apple ruled the roost for graphic design applications. Why then did Apple not capture me as an early adopter since it's capabilities for graphic design out paced a PC early in the game?

The answer has never changed, even today.... there is a huge gap in software applications for the Apple when compared with a PC.

For me,the primary reason is not price, it's a lack of software. I know that this hugely limiting market factor will always be a part of the Apple existence. Free market versus closed market. It's always been closed at Apple and it's the wild west with a PC platform, so some interesting things are bound to be developed and catch on with a PC system.

I like knowing that with my PC there's an "App for that", that I can access most of the time for free or low cost. I especially like the fact that 90% of the computing world is PC based.

In my opinion Apple is marketing exclusivity and I'm too practical to get trapped by that.

..... just my 2 cents
Thanks for all your thoughts,
Marlton Mom

 

[photo_chick]

Marlton Mom you just described why my husband switched form Macs to PC's. He was a graphic designer that got into web design as the field emerged. The things he needed to do just could not be done on a Mac back then.

Though we've always had a PC in the house for gaming.

 

[Shutterbug]

I bought a 24" Mac last year and I like it.
Reasons I switched...
1) I just wanted an all inclusive unit with a large screen. So that knocked out laptops and knocked desktops that uses a tower.

2) Support..the problems I had with my toshiba laptop left me looking for help online on computer help forums because their telephone support was non-helpful and non-understandable.
My parents were not too happy with any contact they have had with Dell either concerning their desktop.
I had heard great things about Apple support from others. I must say they were correct. Any problem I have had with my Imac, I was able to talk to someone I could understand on the phone and also had great help at the genius bar.

3) I just wanted something different..a diff OS. My Imac has all the software on it I need to make DVD slideshows. I had so much trouble with all the windows based software that I tried to make that same thing.

So for me..the Imac makes a perfect fit for me. It has all the things I wanted that I couldnt get out of a windows based laptop.

Is it for everyone? nope. In fact my parents are looking for another computer to replace their dell and for them a windows based pc or laptop is a better choice.

Do I plan on getting an Ipad?..nope doesnt suit my needs.

If the Iphone comes to verizon like their have been talks of..will I get that? probably

 

[photo_chick]

2) Support..the problems I had with my toshiba laptop left me looking for help online on computer help forums because their telephone support was non-helpful and non-understandable.
My parents were not too happy with any contact they have had with Dell either concerning their desktop.
I had heard great things about Apple support from others. I must say they were correct. Any problem I have had with my Imac, I was able to talk to someone I could understand on the phone and also had great help at the genius bar.

Apple does have good support. But it's only free for a limited time. If more companies charged for thier long term support it might be better too.

 

[Shutterbug]

Apple does have good support. But it's only free for a limited time. If more companies charged for thier long term support it might be better too.

I have indeed bought the extended Applecare warranty. Seeing what I paid for the computer the Applecare is well worth it to me and not that much. You can even get it off of ebay.

 

[Bstanley]

I had heard great things about Apple support from others. I must say they were correct. Any problem I have had with my Imac, I was able to talk to someone I could understand on the phone and also had great help at the genius bar.

This is SOOoo important to enough people that it amazes me that Windows PC companies haven't figured out how to provide and market it - but then again maybe they (and their customers) are so focused on price that they can't think outside their 'box'.

If I didn't provide my own computer tech support - this would be a significant iMac differentiator to me.

 

[mrcricket]

Support is another reason I prefer Apple. One call takes care of software and hardware issues. Just makes sense.

 

[mrcricket]

I found this excerpt online by Harry McKracken with Fox. I can't say it better about the cost/value of a Mac versus PC.

Full article can be found at http://technologizer.com/2010/02/27/pc-or-mac/

Cost. Venture into the computer department of a store like Best Buy, and you’ll find scads of computers priced well under $1,000 and a handful for a grand or more. The former are almost all Windows machines, and many are respectable choices. The latter, however, are nearly all from Apple — hence the common perception that Macs are way overpriced.
Every time I*do the math, though, I come to the conclusion that the cost of Macs isn’t out of whack with that of*similar Windows machines. Apple isn’t selling $750 notebooks for $1,500 — its portables tend to use higher-end processors, mostly have aluminum cases rather than plastic ones, are typically thinner and lighter than garden-variety laptops and run longer on a battery charge than many of their Windows brethren. The Microsoft-powered laptops most directly comparable to Apple’s MacBook Pro line, HP’s*Envy models, actually cost*more than roughly equivalent Macs.
Another point to consider: All Macs come with Apple’s excellent iLife suite, which provides tools for editing, organizing, and sharing photos, video, music, and more. *Bargain-basement PCs come with much more basic software at best.
Bottom line: You certainly don’t need to splurge on a system in the Mac’s price range to be a happy computer user. But with computers, as with most things in life, you generally get what you pay for.