Introducing - The Cleveland Guardians

[nuclearturtle]

No need to feel sorry for me. I’m good - and on the right side of history.

No I do feel sorry for you and you're not on the right side of history... you're on your side..

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

No I do feel sorry for you and you're not on the right side of history... you're on your side..

Well I’m glad I live rent free in your head. But I promise you, I’m good. And in discussions like this there is a right side and wrong side. Trust me, I’m on the right side.

But it makes you feel better to have feelings about me, have at it. I’ll be living my life.

 

[JimMIA]

The bottom line for me is that names and mascots of billionaires' toys don't matter. They are trivia.

 

[design_mom]

This whole name thing just made me realize that different professional soccer teams have a completely different naming concept ( no mascots, animals, types of person )

I know you're right about many teams. Our MLS team, the Columbus Crew, has a name and a mascot. Earlier this season, the owners announced they were changing it from Columbus Crew to Columbus SC. (I don't think there were any complaints about the cultural sensitivity of the name, they were just following the trend -- back when MLS started, all of the teams had names.) Anyway, the fans had a *fit* and the club backtracked within a week. Point being, for a lot of people, I just think a lot of people don't like change, especially when it comes to what they consider "institutions."

 

[fly girl]

That will probably be a collectors item now.


As for the change, I like the new name. Guardians is waaaaay better than Spiders!!

All in all, whether the name offended enough people to qualify as "officially offensive" or not, I think it was time to change it when it started consistently taking the attention away from the actual game.

That was my first thought, I’m so glad it wasn’t Spiders. I know it would be a throwback name, but I never liked it.

Summed it up nicely, @PollyannaMom.

Personally, the only tie I have to the old name is my love for the movie Major League. Ok so they’re the Guardians now. I will get used to it, things change. Most of us will. But no doubt you’ll have a few who will call them The Cleveland Indians until they die. It is what it is.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

What's with all the race stuff? Some posters are working real hard to make people see their point of view as to why some team names are so offensive and at the same time others are using terms like "whitesplaining" and "white fragility" effectively ruining the whole argument by being offensive themselves. If some don't see things the way others think they should the gloves come off and the name throwing begins. Some posters are just so predictable. It's a real shame that you just can't be happy about the change instead of cast aspersions on others who don't see it the same way.

 

[AurumPunzel]

This whole discourse over naming American teams has got me thinking about why those names originally came about, and why the names of our sports teams are more civilised and less contentious (aside from one of the nicknames for my favourite soccer team, which stemmed from the majority of fans being Jewish - I'm personally not Jewish) compared to in the US. If was all about revering the indigenous, then why were they done in a way that it would become contentious years later?

 

[RedAngie]

That will probably be a collectors item now.

I should post it on ebay. Minimum bid $10,000. Pristine condition. Only worn once for about two hours.

 

[White Cat]

This whole discourse over naming American teams has got me thinking about why those names originally came about, and why the names of our sports teams are more civilised and less contentious (aside from one of the nicknames for my favourite soccer team, which stemmed from the majority of fans being Jewish - I'm personally not Jewish) compared to in the US. If was all about revering the indigenous, then why were they done in a way that it would become contentious years later?

Because years ago it couldn’t be forecasted that a segment of the population would be so easily offended.

 

[Jennasis]

People complain about others being "easily offended". Maybe, just maybe, people just be NICE to others. If I may expound...

My ex-MIL told me (as we were looking through proofs from the wedding) that I looked ugly walking down the aisle. When I packed up the pics and walked out of the house, she went on a tear about how I was "too sensitive". Perhaps she should have just kept her opinion to herself (or at least not shared it with ME). Why was that so hard? Just be nice.

I have no problem with trying to be compassionate, polite, welcoming, inclusive, and non-offensive to the best of my ability, and if/when called out on a misstep, I am okay with recognizing that I could have made a better choice of words or actions and correcting course. Why on Earth anyone would want to continue using a name, term, description, or word that someone has said is hurtful is beyond me.

Personal growth is hard. Be better, do better. Never stop learning, growing as a human being.

(Also, the name Spiders would have been terrible because I am scared of Spiders). LOL.

 

[Darklord77]

What's with all the race stuff? Some posters are working real hard to make people see their point of view as to why some team names are so offensive and at the same time others are using terms like "whitesplaining" and "white fragility" effectively ruining the whole argument by being offensive themselves.

Those terms are the new "micro aggression" ways to identify people as racist without actually calling them a racist. It implies that if you are a certain race, you can't even be involved in the discussion because your point of view is automatically null and void because of your race.

 

[Darklord77]

Because years ago it couldn’t be forecasted that a segment of the population would be so easily offended.

It's the same people that always have an answer in search of a problem.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Those terms are the new "micro aggression" ways to identify people as racist without actually calling them a racist. It implies that if you are a certain race, you can't even be involved in the discussion because your point of view is automatically null and void because of your race.

Or you know, the way society actually works. And nobody said white people can’t be a part of the conversation. We just can’t tell POC how they should or do feel about something. Especially related to race and their personal experiences.

@Ms.Minnie to answer your question, this whole thread is about race because that’s the topic. That’s why the name change for the team.

 

[DisneyOma]

I’m from Ohio. I really think they could have come up with something better. Still think it’s all ridiculous why they had to change it anyway.

Yes, It’s been the Cleveland Indians for years with Chief Wahoo and it should stay that way.

My grandfather was 1/2 Blackfoot Indian and it didn’t bother them at all.

Maybe because it is really racist?

Who's next? Atlanta Braves, Golden State Warriors, San Diego Padres, Chicago Blackhawks? Boston Celtics? Isn't the representation of an Irish person a little offensive to some?

I wish the Celtics would use a cool Celtic symbol or rune or something instead of a leprechaun. Not all Celts were/are Irish.

I don't know about conditions everywhere, but I know locally our Indian populations have much more serious problems on their hands than what players for some billionaire's toy wear on their baseball caps.

They are much more worried about health care, food, adequate housing, employment, alcoholism and drug addiction, etc than what some sports fan wears posing for selfies.

So FSU gives lots and lots of money and support, scholarships to the local native American community whose name they use? That would be fitting.

As long as folks focus on silly symbols like baseball caps, the big issues will not be solved. Sure we can all think about more than one thing, but the reality is that people don't focus their work on more than one issue -- and it's usually the easy stuff like baseball caps.

I think it's a start, to show some respect, at least. Or if they use a name and image, perhaps 50% of the profits should go to the group being used?

Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I just tend to view symbolism as less important, and I think many people fight symbolic battles because the real battles are too difficult.

Personally, I don't see the use of Native American imagery as anything but complimentary. To me, that imagery is an acknowledgement of both the rich cultural and historical importance of native people.

Atlanta using "Brave" as a symbol -- to me, at least -- is nothing but admiration for Indian courage in battle. The word "Indian" is not objectionable to most Native Americans -- in fact, it is a part of many of their official tribal names.

OTOH, if you had a team called "Savages" and it was depicted as one particular race, that would certainly be offensive. In the same way, I can understand people objecting to "Redskins" because that can clearly be considered as racial -- although the context of that name was to indicate that the football team was to be feared, not to criticize any group of people.

But "Indians" doesn't bother me.

Even if the name in itself is wrong? They aren't from India.

Am I the only one who sees a difference between using "Indians" as a team name and using a caricature as the mascot?

It depends on what they do outside of just using the name. If they don't do anything for the local "Indian" community, then it is still exploitation and cultural approriation.

For the uneducated and emotionally distressed.

A brief history of Chief Wahoo and The Cleveland Indians
In 1947, Cleveland Indians owner Bill Veeck hired seventeen-year-old draftsman Walter Goldbach. Tasked with creating a mascot for the Cleveland Indians that "would convey a spirit of pure joy and unbridled enthusiasm", he created a smiling face with yellow skin and a prominent nose. The name "Indians" and "Chief Wahoo" were meant to honor Louis Sockalexis, an outfielder for the Indians' predecessors the Cleveland Spiders and one of the FIRST Native Americans to play Major League Baseball. Another Native American baseball player, Allie Reynolds, pitched for the Indians for five years beginning in 1942, mostly as a starter. He was later traded to the New York Yankees. On October 6, 1950, the Plain Dealer, under the title of “Chief Wahoo Whizzing”, stated “Allie (Chief Wahoo) Reynolds, the copper-skinned Creek” lost to Philadelphia, but “in the clutches, though, the Chief was a standup gent—tougher than Sitting Bull.” In subsequent articles, Reynolds was again called “Chief Wahoo”, “old Wahoo”, and just plain “Wahoo”.
The name Big Chief Wahoo is said to have originated from a 1937 newspaper comic strip called Big Chief Wahoo. Wahoo was a short Native American in a ten-gallon hat who was played for laughs but showed courage, loyalty, and common sense. It was whites who were often the targets of the jokes (Wahoo: "Paleface full of prunes!"), and of vigorous defenses of Native Americans.

It's sad to see such a positive Mascot of Baseball History be destroyed by the uneducated and overly emotional people of this Great Nation. Big Chief Wahoo and other Native American Indians will now be erased from the pages of history and be forgotten with each passing generation.

Rest In Peace Louis Sockalexis
Rest In Peace Allie Reynolds
Rest In Peace Walter Goldbach
Rest In Peace Chief Wahoo

So, even from your own research, you've got it stated that the name "Big Chief Wahoo" is a stereotypical caricature played for laughs, speaking in a stereotypical way. That explains how inappropriate it all is, so thank you very much.

 

[Darklord77]

Or you know, the way society actually works. And nobody said white people can’t be a part of the conversation. We just can’t tell POC how they should or do feel about something. Especially related to race and their personal experiences.

2004 and 2016 polls of Native Americans found 90% had no problems with professional sports team names. A 2014 poll showed that 23% of non-Native Americans thought the team name "Redskin" was offensive. So isn't this actually a case of non-Native Americans trying to "nativeamericansplain" to the actually Native Americans? And yes I am copyrighting the term "nativeamericansplain."

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

2004 and 2016 polls of Native Americans found 90% had no problems with professional sports team names. A 2014 poll showed that 23% of non-Native Americans thought the team name "Redskin" was offensive. So isn't this actually a case of non-Native Americans trying to "nativeamericansplain" to the actually Native Americans? And yes I am copyrighting the term "nativeamericansplain."

You’re conflating two different conversations. I was specifically talking about the terms white privilege, whitesplaining, micro aggressions, white fragility.

The decision to change the name was made by the organization and only they know the reasons. Maybe it’s to be more inclusive/less offensive, maybe it’s a business decision, maybe it’s something else. I can say that changing the name doesn’t hurt anybody, but not changing does it hurt 10% of Native Americans. That is enough reason to change it.

And those who claim to be upset by it have yet to say why it upsets them, except to say they’re tired of “wokeness” which is an absolutely ridiculous reason. But it does prove that there really isn’t a reason NOT to change it.

 

[DisneyOma]

2004 and 2016 polls of Native Americans found 90% had no problems with professional sports team names. A 2014 poll showed that 23% of non-Native Americans thought the team name "Redskin" was offensive. So isn't this actually a case of non-Native Americans trying to "nativeamericansplain" to the actually Native Americans? And yes I am copyrighting the term "nativeamericansplain."

I'd love to see those polls you mention, please.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

I'd love to see those polls you mention, please.

I would too. Seems like those numbers are way off when discussing the Redskins names/mascot


Also looks like Native Americans are happy about the Cleveland name change.

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/momen...mes-cleveland-baseball-team/story?id=79016197

 

[JimMIA]

I wish the Celtics would use a cool Celtic symbol or rune or something instead of a leprechaun. Not all Celts were/are Irish.

I agree with you on this one.

So FSU gives lots and lots of money and support, scholarships to the local native American community whose name they use?

I really doubt that, LOL! The Seminole Tribe of Florida owns the entire Hard Rock empire. I don't think they need any financial help.

 

[Darklord77]

I'd love to see those polls you mention, please.

2016 was a Washington Post poll.
2004 was an Annenberg Public Policy Center poll
2014 was an ESPN poll.

All three of these sources swing to the left.