Interesting Rolling Stone article on college debt

[FlightlessDuck]

There are ways to get a cheaper college education. If one chooses a low paying career, then the cost of the education should definitely be a consideration when choosing where to go to college.

Sure. Don't need to go to a private university when you can go to the local state school for less than half that.

 

[LSUmiss]

It's pretty messed up that the advise people are getting is to major in things they can afford to pay back. So only people on full scholarships or will pay without loans should taken a major that has a low starting salary.

Somehow I don't think that will happen.

Plus, this ignores the fact that people should study what they are interested in.

"Do you have the potential to be the next John Amos Comenius or John Dewey, but can't afford the $40,000 a year teacher salary? How about be a mediocre lawyer instead!?"

Exactly. Plus we need ppl in those professions.

 

[morgan98]

No, I think the notion that an education in something you enjoy is somehow “owed to you” is messed up. That’s a luxury, not a necessity. And it’s honestly one of the reasons so many are up to their eyeballs in debt.

For me, this is one thing that has changed more recently too (or at least so it seems). Don't get me wrong, I like my major enough, I guess, but it is sure not sexy or even something that I would say I was super interested in or passionate about (accounting/CPA). However, it suited my skills and has provided fantastic opportunity. I wouldn't have chose it though if I was really following my passion. The good news is that it has allowed me to enjoy and pursue my interests very much when I am not working.

Of course college can help you become a more well rounded person and is hopefully an enriching experience. I know it was for me. However, people absolutely need to pay attention to the risk/reward also.

 

[GreatLakes]

I think when people say working their way through college, they mean working year-round, not just during Summer break. But yes, either way it’s a LOT harder to accomplish now.

Yep. I worked or had school (and most days both) 7 days a week both in high school and in college. It was hard but totally worth my $0.00 monthly loan repayment.

 

[LSUmiss]

Yep. I worked or had school (and most days both) 7 days a week both in high school and in college. It was hard but totally worth my $0.00 monthly loan repayment.

I worked year round AND still needed loans. Depends on the area, what jobs are available, how much school costs, how long the program is, how many hours you can work, etc.

 

[disney junky]

Grove City College in PA has always had an interesting model. Both my kids went there. Tuition room and board are just under $27,000 a year. Ten years ago when my kids were enrolled there, it was $16,000. They accept no federal funds. Everyone pays the same amount. They build everything with cash. It is a religious school, but it seems that they are able to do this and have been able to do this since their founding. It's a tough school. High standards.

I'm not suggesting that $27,000 a year isn't a lot of money, but it shows that a private school in western PA can offer a high quality education at a fairly affordable cost.

 

[DopeyDame]

I don’t disagree, but it brings us back to the point of ROI. Your $100,000 debt - while larger than “necessary” - provided you with an education that created an opportunity to pay that debt off. The same would not necessarily be true of a teacher with the same debt.

Absolutely, I agree. And your point about a teacher is spot on - the lower paying job I turned down was to teach middle school math. I could have paid my loans and my rent on a teacher's salary, but I would have been eating a lot of PB&Js and Ramen Noodles.

My point is just that, as it's not always a good idea to take on debt for education, it's also not always a bad idea. Each person needs to evaluate their own plans, earning potential, and priorities.

 

[NotUrsula]

Well I guess I didn't know that. All I know is in the mid 80's when I was in college we all worked and paid our way. I honestly don't know ANY of my friends that had loans, and I was in a sorority so I had a lot of friends.ha

I guess I don't know who had pell grants, I never did, and I "think" we were all around the same income bracket. Loans just weren't in my world then. I'm not really sure when I started hearing about kids getting loans for college??? 2000's I guess.

With all due respect, if you were in a sorority, you had to have had a fair amount of money to spare. Unless you spent a lot of your out-of-house time with GDI's, you probably wouldn't have know too many people who depended on Pell Grants. For the most part, traditional Greek life and Pell Grant eligibilty don't often intersect.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

The guy in the linked story and his wife certainly didn't do themselves any favors by having two kids when they were so much in debt.

 

[saucymb]

My oldest is just in the 6th grade. We have college savings plans for all 3 of the boys. I just looked up tuition costs at the nearest 4-year University (45 minutes away). It happens to be where I went to college. If a student started in Fall 2017 and went for 8 semester to get a 4-year degree in ANYTHING, it would cost $28k. Including all fees, excluding books. I don't know, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. That works out to $150 a week - or 15 hours a week at a $10 an hour job. Definitely do-able. If you have to tack on living expenses, obviously it will double or more. But if the kid does the first 2 years at a CC, that $28k drops to just $18k for a bachelors degree. I think that's a bargain. I'm in NC.

I mentioned I went to the same school. My tuition (I graduated in 1999) over 8 semesters was around $12,000. Again, fees included, books excluded. I lived off-campus and had a car. I took out loans after the first year. Big mistake. I didn't know how to handle money. I wasted so much of it! I got the max allowed, and even though I worked, I definitely did not spend my money wisely. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my kids don't make those same mistakes.

I also am convinced that most 4-year degrees have so many non-essential hours that a 4-year degree could be obtained in 5-6 semesters if you just cut out all of the junk. The colleges of course would not go for it as fewer semesters = less money.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

My oldest is just in the 6th grade. We have college savings plans for all 3 of the boys. I just looked up tuition costs at the nearest 4-year University (45 minutes away). It happens to be where I went to college. If a student started in Fall 2017 and went for 8 semester to get a 4-year degree in ANYTHING, it would cost $28k. Including all fees, excluding books. I don't know, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. That works out to $150 a week - or 15 hours a week at a $10 an hour job. Definitely do-able. If you have to tack on living expenses, obviously it will double or more. But if the kid does the first 2 years at a CC, that $28k drops to just $18k for a bachelors degree. I think that's a bargain. I'm in NC.

I mentioned I went to the same school. My tuition (I graduated in 1999) over 8 semesters was around $12,000. Again, fees included, books excluded. I lived off-campus and had a car. I took out loans after the first year. Big mistake. I didn't know how to handle money. I wasted so much of it! I got the max allowed, and even though I worked, I definitely did not spend my money wisely. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my kids don't make those same mistakes.

I also am convinced that most 4-year degrees have so many non-essential hours that a 4-year degree could be obtained in 5-6 semesters if you just cut out all of the junk. The colleges of course would not go for it as fewer semesters = less money.

I don't have the exact numbers but I do know that my alma mater already reduced the number of credit hours required to graduate a bit after I graduated.

But part of going to a Liberal Arts and Sciences school is that it's designed so you get a variety of courses. I don't think 5 semesters would be enough. 6 semesters may be depending on how the college structured their requirements. For example in order to get my BA I needed to have 4 semesters of a foreign language. If I only had 6 semesters total to work with then using up 4 semesters on a foreign language would limit my ability to do other courses. So then the number of semsters for foreign language would likely need to be adjusted.

If I was going to a school where the only focus was Psychology then 8 semesters may be more than I need depending on my interests. However, even with my husband who was in the School of Engineering they had to take a few non-engineering courses..not many by any means but just a few. I know he took a history course and a course on the History of Film (which yes that was his total and complete fluff easy course).

My alma mater also removed Western Civ as a requirement (which when I was going there was only open to those in sophmore level or above) and instead made it a choice. What they did was add multiple options that appearantly fulfill the same-ish goal Western Civ had. I *think* it may still be a requirement to have Humanities courses but not the actual course of Western Civ like it used to be.

 

[QueenIsabella]

My oldest is just in the 6th grade. We have college savings plans for all 3 of the boys. I just looked up tuition costs at the nearest 4-year University (45 minutes away). It happens to be where I went to college. If a student started in Fall 2017 and went for 8 semester to get a 4-year degree in ANYTHING, it would cost $28k. Including all fees, excluding books. I don't know, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. That works out to $150 a week - or 15 hours a week at a $10 an hour job. Definitely do-able. If you have to tack on living expenses, obviously it will double or more. But if the kid does the first 2 years at a CC, that $28k drops to just $18k for a bachelors degree. I think that's a bargain. I'm in NC.

I mentioned I went to the same school. My tuition (I graduated in 1999) over 8 semesters was around $12,000. Again, fees included, books excluded. I lived off-campus and had a car. I took out loans after the first year. Big mistake. I didn't know how to handle money. I wasted so much of it! I got the max allowed, and even though I worked, I definitely did not spend my money wisely. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my kids don't make those same mistakes.

I also am convinced that most 4-year degrees have so many non-essential hours that a 4-year degree could be obtained in 5-6 semesters if you just cut out all of the junk. The colleges of course would not go for it as fewer semesters = less money.

Not to go OT, but in NC, every county has an Early College HS--some have more than one. You graduate with a HS diploma and an associate's. It's not for everyone, of course, but if you have a bright, motivated, focused student, it could be another way to save $$. We looked at it for my DD14--she wasn't interested, because these schools are very rigorous. No extracurriculars at all, and she had friends drop out of dance because of the workload. Dual enrollment is also big her in NC (and doesn't require a special HS or any other requirements, beyond being willing to do the work).

For those in other states, AP classes and dual enrollment are frequently offered, if college money is a concern. When my oldest started college, one girls she knew started as a second-semester "sophomore", because of AP credits. Not actually a sophomore, but she got class choices as if she were, and got to skip most core courses.

Back on topic, I'm a little fed-up with people whining about the trajectory of their lives, as if they had nothing to do with it. You choose your college, you choose to take on debt, you choose to start a family, etc.--there are consequences. PPs are right that a person shouldn't major in, say, medicine, just because that's where the money is, but each individual needs to look at their strengths and see how those could be used to earn a decent living. I have a brother who's an artist, who always considered it to be "selling out" to go the graphic design or other commercial artist route. Well, he's closing in on 55, and he's still broke. Fine for him, not so good for his ex-wife and kids. He fled the country to avoid student loan debt. It's ridiculous.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Back on topic, I'm a little fed-up with people whining about the trajectory of their lives, as if they had nothing to do with it. You choose your college, you choose to take on debt, you choose to start a family, etc.--there are consequences. PPs are right that a person shouldn't major in, say, medicine, just because that's where the money is, but each individual needs to look at their strengths and see how those could be used to earn a decent living. I have a brother who's an artist, who always considered it to be "selling out" to go the graphic design or other commercial artist route. Well, he's closing in on 55, and he's still broke. Fine for him, not so good for his ex-wife and kids. He fled the country to avoid student loan debt. It's ridiculous.

I think there has to be a medium here. Realistically we can't have all doctors and we can't have all a 'starving artists' (to use your brother as an example).

But we do recognize that we need educated people to do jobs that don't necessarily pay the best. And sometimes those who get paid $$$ work in high-stress or dangerous jobs. I for one wouldn't want to be responsible for saving a life by giving brain surgery but nor would I for one want to be responsible for ensuring that welding done on that job is done correctly so it doesn't result in loss of life should it fail. On the other hand some lower pays jobs should probably be re-evaluated in terms of that.

I do agree with you about individual needs and strengths absolutely.

 

[Christine]

I think there has to be a medium here. Realistically we can't have all doctors and we can't have all a 'starving artists' (to use your brother as an example).

But we do recognize that we need educated people to do jobs that don't necessarily pay the best. And sometimes those who get paid $$$ work in high-stress or dangerous jobs. I for one wouldn't want to be responsible for saving a life by giving brain surgery but nor would I for one want to be responsible for ensuring that welding done on that job is done correctly so it doesn't result in loss of life should it fail. On the other hand some lower pays jobs should probably be re-evaluated in terms of that.

I do agree with you about individual needs and strengths absolutely.

To be honest, and I know this quite a "socialist" idea, but I think that most of our important yet low paid jobs should get some government assistance. We need to attract good teachers. But many smart, innovative types won't go that route because of the crushing debt and low pay. As a society, it's in our best interest to have good teachers who don't have to live with 10 roommates for 10 years to pay off their debt.

 

[LSUmiss]

Not to go OT, but in NC, every county has an Early College HS--some have more than one. You graduate with a HS diploma and an associate's. It's not for everyone, of course, but if you have a bright, motivated, focused student, it could be another way to save $$. We looked at it for my DD14--she wasn't interested, because these schools are very rigorous. No extracurriculars at all, and she had friends drop out of dance because of the workload. Dual enrollment is also big her in NC (and doesn't require a special HS or any other requirements, beyond being willing to do the work).

For those in other states, AP classes and dual enrollment are frequently offered, if college money is a concern. When my oldest started college, one girls she knew started as a second-semester "sophomore", because of AP credits. Not actually a sophomore, but she got class choices as if she were, and got to skip most core courses.

Back on topic, I'm a little fed-up with people whining about the trajectory of their lives, as if they had nothing to do with it. You choose your college, you choose to take on debt, you choose to start a family, etc.--there are consequences. PPs are right that a person shouldn't major in, say, medicine, just because that's where the money is, but each individual needs to look at their strengths and see how those could be used to earn a decent living. I have a brother who's an artist, who always considered it to be "selling out" to go the graphic design or other commercial artist route. Well, he's closing in on 55, and he's still broke. Fine for him, not so good for his ex-wife and kids. He fled the country to avoid student loan debt. It's ridiculous.

NO ONE gets to choose where they begin in life & that can GREATLY affect the options of the trajectory ppl are able to choose. I don’t think ppl are “whining”, but telling their stories in case it may help others or more importantly change the system. I’m tired of ppl not acknowledging that they were more fortunate than others. I’m not saying that no one has made bad choices. I’m sure plenty have. But, sometimes ppl have to choose between 2 poor choices & neither is good. This is not my original thought but an analogy that was once told to me is it’s like hitting a home run & talking about how much you achieved WHILE judging others who weren’t as successful, but you got to start from
2nd base & didn’t even realize it.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

To be honest, and I know this quite a "socialist" idea, but I think that most of our important yet low paid jobs should get some government assistance. We need to attract good teachers. But many smart, innovative types won't go that route because of the crushing debt and low pay. As a society, it's in our best interest to have good teachers who don't have to live with 10 roommates for 10 years to pay off their debt.

On the flip side, both of my parents were teachers and they’re living quite comfortably in retirement (since the age of 57) on their pensions. It wasn’t always easy. Dad worked a lot of Summers, and coached sports almost the entire time he taught. We lived in an 800 square foot home, rarely had new cars. Mom busted her hump to complete her Masters after 50. And they both worked part time in retirement for about a decade. Now in their late 70’s, they still barter for free golf LOL. But, they own two homes and do pretty much what they want when they want, all debt free.

The path today would be harder, but not impossible.

 

[saucymb]

To be honest, and I know this quite a "socialist" idea, but I think that most of our important yet low paid jobs should get some government assistance. We need to attract good teachers. But many smart, innovative types won't go that route because of the crushing debt and low pay. As a society, it's in our best interest to have good teachers who don't have to live with 10 roommates for 10 years to pay off their debt.

But, like I pointed out upthread, there doesn't have to be "crushing debt". In NC, a Bachelor's degree in education can be had for $18k. I know each state is different. How in the world would $18k be crushing debt? It's a car payment - and that's if it's entirely financed. But so many people are choosing to go to $50k a year and up schools for that same degree. Sure, one may be more prestigious than another, but for the most part, the paycheck is the same. This doesn't only apply to teaching either. Low pay, sure, we should definitely work on that. But "government assistance"? No. Not for being a teacher.

 

[saucymb]

Not to go OT, but in NC, every county has an Early College HS--some have more than one. You graduate with a HS diploma and an associate's. It's not for everyone, of course, but if you have a bright, motivated, focused student, it could be another way to save $$. We looked at it for my DD14--she wasn't interested, because these schools are very rigorous. No extracurriculars at all, and she had friends drop out of dance because of the workload. Dual enrollment is also big her in NC (and doesn't require a special HS or any other requirements, beyond being willing to do the work).

I love the Early College HS option in NC! I know several kids enrolled in it. It is rigorous. One girl I know who is doing it will take an extra year - so she will graduate with the HS diploma and CC associates degree after the "13th" grade. She said she wasn't sure what she was going to do when she was finished so she wanted to take her time and explore options. I think that's great.

 

[Christine]

But, like I pointed out upthread, there doesn't have to be "crushing debt". In NC, a Bachelor's degree in education can be had for $18k. I know each state is different. How in the world would $18k be crushing debt? It's a car payment - and that's if it's entirely financed. But so many people are choosing to go to $50k a year and up schools for that same degree. Sure, one may be more prestigious than another, but for the most part, the paycheck is the same. This doesn't only apply to teaching either. Low pay, sure, we should definitely work on that. But "government assistance"? No. Not for being a teacher.

I can only look at it from where I live. In the DC area, a master's is required. Most colleges now do an automatic 5 year program for teachers here. That "master's" portion is pretty pricey. Our state schools in Virginia run about $5200 per semester just for tuition and fees, so roughly $10K per year for the first 4 years, then the graduate portion is very expensive.

I do realize that some states, who have a harder time attracting teachers, have relaxed the master's degree requirements, but not everyone.

So yeah, I guess if you are lucky enough to live in a state with cheaper tuition, it can be fine.

 

[saucymb]

I can only look at it from where I live. In the DC area, a master's is required. Most colleges now do an automatic 5 year program for teachers here. That "master's" portion is pretty pricey. Our state schools in Virginia run about $5200 per semester just for tuition and fees, so roughly $10K per year for the first 4 years, then the graduate portion is very expensive.

I do realize that some states, who have a harder time attracting teachers, have relaxed the master's degree requirements, but not everyone.

So yeah, I guess if you are lucky enough to live in a state with cheaper tuition, it can be fine.

Master's Degrees are important - and I believe in NC, teachers have a certain time frame to obtain them.

I know here in NC we are very fortunate to have excellent Community Colleges and State Universities that offer a great education at an affordable price. Many out-of-state students come here and find that our out-of-state tuition is still less expensive than their in-state tuition.

$10k per year still doesn't sound entirely unreasonable. But if that 40K plus master's is going to be so difficult, why not take a year or two before going to college to move to a state where it is less expensive, then work and save? I think that is reasonable.