Inspired by the school project post...

[BuzznBelle'smom]

I think it's an excellent idea to help a child break down a multi-step project into manageable "bites". In our house, some days have lots of after-school activities, while others don't--it's important for kids to plan around these. My older two (DD11, DS9) know that if school work starts slipping, the extras will go.

DD11 would also spend a ton of time on the "pretty" parts of a project. It helps to get her to focus on the actual work first, and use the decoration as her reward afterwards, if that makes sense.

As far as materials go, my kids have free rein of whatever we have in the house. If they needed something specific, like silver rick-rack, just to use an example, I'd be happy to pick it up at Wal-Mart. I do get posterboard, and find that they like to use index cards for projects, so I buy those, too. But beyond what we have, I only get special stuff for the science fair.

My DD11 likes planning and setting up a schedule. As others have said, she frequently does more per day than is listed--this gives her a break down the line. DS9 is less receptive, but does what's required. Both are excellent students. More importantly, on several projects, teachers have commented to me that it's obvious that the children do their own work. What this really means is, the project may not look "perfect", but clearly has the child's fingerprints all over it. This doesn't seem to hurt their grades at all. I will type a report for a child, but only if they've written wha tthey want to say. It's not fair to force them to learn typing and computer skills on the fly with a project due the next day.

I agree that there can be too much vacation stuff--this summer, the reading program was WAY more complex than it had to be. My kids couldn't be bothered keeping track of how many minutes they read. I don't sweat it--they love to read. Beyond that, DD11 had a book to read and DS9 had a math packet--I had him do a couple pages at a time various times throughout the summer. As far as NMAmy said--I think one of those projects per holiday would be plenty. I have no problem with vacation work, but it shouldn't be all-consuming.

 

[Planogirl]

I don't go into quite that much detail. I just tell ours to get busy and offer advice if needed. He's working it out slowly but surely.

 

[barkley]

in regards to school projects we are very lucky. dd's/ds's teacher sends home a newsletter every monday and it lists all the homework assignments by day for that week, the monthly topic for the reading assignment (and since whatever project associated with the reading assignment is due the last day of the month half way through the month she details what that project is) and any monthly assignments. she's also very good about giving us a mention if we should start setting aside shoe boxes or something in particular for the following month (we've been asked to save shoe boxes, magazines, newspapers, unused grocery coupons, paper towel cores...).

as far as supplies for projects-our school sends home anything they need for projects such as poster board, glitter, glue sticks, construction paper and pipe cleaners, so we don't have to go commando shopping for stuff.

as an aside, my son has adhd and very poor small motor skills. he gets meds first thing in the morning which help tremendously at school but begin to wear off around 4 or so (he does'nt get a second dose because the doctor wants him to have a stronger appetite in the evenings) but his hands get very tired from the way he uses a pencil despite physical therapy. i spoke with his teacher about the difficulty/frustration he encounters doing some of the nightly homework assignments, and she and i finaly agreed to set a time limit on how long he works on a particular assignment. he's in 3rd right now and it's set at 20 minutes. she bases his grade on what he can accomplish in that 20 minutes (and i have to say, day by day he is accomplishing more and more).

 

[Tanuki]

I just wanted to clarify that on the other thread I never suggested sending the child to their room (with all their toys and electronic distractions) and leaving them to complete their project.

It is best to find an area in the house with few distractions for them to do their work.

Every home is different, but usually with some thinking you can find an area and remove the distractions so they can get to work.

If it is going to be impossible to do it in your house, I can remember spending many an afternoon at the local public library when I needed a quiet place to study. I wasn't an only child and we didn't have more than a 2000 square foot house.

 

[golfgal]

Nowhere in her post did she say she wasn't interested in partaking in her son's education. She said she's tired of the busy work-- like decorating a shoe box or making a leaf collage or finding 100 small objects for the 100th day. I wish that teachers would be more mindful of how intrinsically valuable a project would be and weigh that against the time involved in completing that project, instead of just assigning the work because it's cute or they learned about it in continuing ed. To be honest, I haven't had many problems with this issue yet, but I see my niece dealing with it in her school system.

If a child is faced with frustration because of learning disabilities or behavioral problems on a daily basis, only assigning necessary work after school would be particularly important. Don't you think?

Having the kids exchange papers for grading was never a good idea and is pure laziness on the part of a teacher. Is it even legal to do that in this day and age?

Actually she did say that, she said that the bulk of learning should take place in school, that is not true. People, you can't have it both ways, either the school pushes and parents are required to supervise more and more homework to get kids to where they should be to compete with other countries or you have to be satisfied with what happens now in schools. Our kids are in school for much less time then countries around the world, good or bad. The day is going to come where your child is going to lose out on a job because someone from some other country is going to be better at the job because of the background they have. Everyone wants "kids to be kids" and be involved in 100 other activities and have no problem taking their 6 year old to hockey practice at 10PM but oh my GOD we have an hour of homework to do.

As for having kids correct papers there is a GREAT lesson to be learned in the REVIEW process of correcting papers in class. It has NOTHING to do with a teacher being lazy. It is a REVIEW process for the students. In an ideal world teachers could trust their students to correct their own papers the right way and not cheat, but guess what, you can't. They should also be able to trust students to correct other kids' work without teasing them about a grade, but guess what, they can't. How is this the fault of the school????

From what I read on almost every single school bash post is that parents want schools to do it all, they don't want to have to do ANYTHING and they certainly don't want to PAY for the schools to do everything and since that is the case, the schools can't do everything the parents want so then the school is BAD. How exactly does this work??????

 

[JulieWent]

First of all you are not correct.
I have spent hours helping my kids study,voluntering at thier schools and buying whatever is required. What I am saying is that I think the teachers need to teach them more at school and that I do not agree with the volume of homework my kids get. My DD is the 23rd in her class and studies her but off. She also is up until 11pm most nights because of the load of work she has to get done. It is unreasonable. I have repeatedly informed the school that we cannot afford some of the expenses but since I make more than the amount for "free lunch" they dont care. We just had to buy DS a graphing calculator which is required and cost over 100. The 3 D projects in a shoe box, the numerous poster boards and essays are all worthless garbage in my opnionion. I do not agree that these are good teaching methods. I think many teachers have too many kids and assign a lot of work to be taught at home because they cannot teach it in school. I am asked to "teach" my child French, which I never took along with Algebra II and Chem II etc. My DS has ADHD and other LD. He has an IEP but frequently the plan cannot be met because the school does not have the staff or the supplies. Ex he is supposed to have a math aid but she was alid off,he is supposed to have a set of books for home but there arent even enought to go around. It is terribly frustrating. You are apparently happy home svhooling or providing the bulk of your child's education. I work full time by necessity. I woluld love the luxury of being home with my kids but it just is not possible for us. I do expect to need to help with my kids education.My problem is that I feel I am now responsible for more of it than the trained teachers who are wel paid to provide it.Some of them had no experience with learing disabled kids and I tried to provide some information but was told by home room teacher she does not have time to treat any child differently and would not have time to read the materials.Youre school system may be perfect.Mine is awful.

If your son has an IEP that is not being followed and your teachers are telling your that they cannot or will not follow it, then you need to immediately file a complaint with your state department of education. An IEP is a legally binding document. If the district is unwilling or unable to meet it's obligations, it must find a place that can and will and provide a fair and appropriate education for your son at that place. This is not a convenience. It is the law. It is on your side.
Julie

 

[snowwite]

I thought an IEP was a 'legal' document- meaning- if it states in the IEP that a child is to be provided with X, and the school does not provide it, they are in essence not supporting the IEP, which is illegal......no? Not familiar with IEP's as neither of my DD's have them...but thats what I thought.

Brandy

It is a legal doc but I cannot afford the time off from work to keep fighting the school. I tried contacting an advocate but they charge a lot of money.
I just keep calling and writing until he gets what he needs.Last year it took from Sept to Dec to get the aid and until 2nd semester to get the books.

 

[snowwite]

Actually she did say that, she said that the bulk of learning should take place in school, that is not true. People, you can't have it both ways, either the school pushes and parents are required to supervise more and more homework to get kids to where they should be to compete with other countries or you have to be satisfied with what happens now in schools. Our kids are in school for much less time then countries around the world, good or bad. The day is going to come where your child is going to lose out on a job because someone from some other country is going to be better at the job because of the background they have. Everyone wants "kids to be kids" and be involved in 100 other activities and have no problem taking their 6 year old to hockey practice at 10PM but oh my GOD we have an hour of homework to do.

As for having kids correct papers there is a GREAT lesson to be learned in the REVIEW process of correcting papers in class. It has NOTHING to do with a teacher being lazy. It is a REVIEW process for the students. In an ideal world teachers could trust their students to correct their own papers the right way and not cheat, but guess what, you can't. They should also be able to trust students to correct other kids' work without teasing them about a grade, but guess what, they can't. How is this the fault of the school????

From what I read on almost every single school bash post is that parents want schools to do it all, they don't want to have to do ANYTHING and they certainly don't want to PAY for the schools to do everything and since that is the case, the schools can't do everything the parents want so then the school is BAD. How exactly does this work??????

I have a question? Are you a teacher who does the stuff many parents see as laziness?

 

[golfgal]

I have a question? Are you a teacher who does the stuff many parents see as laziness?

I was a teacher before I had kids but I have been a stay at home mom for the past 14 years. Most of my responses have nothing to do with my teaching degree other then having the background to understand some of the reasons behind they way things are done, they are more in response to my experiences as a parent and KNOWING that while I hate projects as much as the next parent, there are reasons for doing them.

Please explain to me why reviewing a test or paper by correcting it in class is a teacher being lazy vs giving students another opportunity to learn the material in class???? You do realize that most teacher go over the corrected in class papers anyway don't you?

 

[Rafiki Rafiki Rafiki]

I just wanted to say to OP...thanks...I'm SO tired of the rush rush rush on the last night before a project is due!

I will start doing this with my daughters TODAY!

 

[momof2inPA]

Actually she did say that, she said that the bulk of learning should take place in school, that is not true. People, you can't have it both ways, either the school pushes and parents are required to supervise more and more homework to get kids to where they should be to compete with other countries or you have to be satisfied with what happens now in schools. Our kids are in school for much less time then countries around the world, good or bad. The day is going to come where your child is going to lose out on a job because someone from some other country is going to be better at the job because of the background they have. Everyone wants "kids to be kids" and be involved in 100 other activities and have no problem taking their 6 year old to hockey practice at 10PM but oh my GOD we have an hour of homework to do.

As for having kids correct papers there is a GREAT lesson to be learned in the REVIEW process of correcting papers in class. It has NOTHING to do with a teacher being lazy. It is a REVIEW process for the students. In an ideal world teachers could trust their students to correct their own papers the right way and not cheat, but guess what, you can't. They should also be able to trust students to correct other kids' work without teasing them about a grade, but guess what, they can't. How is this the fault of the school????

From what I read on almost every single school bash post is that parents want schools to do it all, they don't want to have to do ANYTHING and they certainly don't want to PAY for the schools to do everything and since that is the case, the schools can't do everything the parents want so then the school is BAD. How exactly does this work??????

She said the bulk of education and projects should take place at school. Isn't that why kids are sent to school, for education? What's the point in sending them there all day if the parents are to cover the same material at home? The bulk of education and paperwork IS done at school. There's nothing wrong with that statement. Parents re-inforce the learning at home. It should be substantive learning, not busy work.

As for having the children REVIEW by grading papers. That isn't a problem if they are grading their own papers, but you should never embarrass the students who receive poorer grades by having the kids grade each other's papers. If you're doing that, I pity your students. It isn't compassionate, it isn't nice, and I'll bet that it's an out-dated or banned practice in many school districts. If you don't want to take the papers home to grade, do it during your lunch period, during gym class, during music class, during a teacher in-service day, etc. My SIL always takes the papers home, but when she gets home at 3:30, I guess she has time to grade a few papers.

 

[golfgal]

She said the bulk of education and projects should take place at school. Isn't that why kids are sent to school, for education? What's the point in sending them there all day if the parents are to cover the same material at home? The bulk of education and paperwork IS done at school. There's nothing wrong with that statement. Parents re-inforce the learning at home. It should be substantive learning, not busy work.

As for having the children REVIEW by grading papers. That isn't a problem if they are grading their own papers, but you should never embarrass the students who receive poorer grades by having the kids grade each other's papers. If you're doing that, I pity your students. It isn't compassionate, it isn't nice, and I'll bet that it's an out-dated or banned practice in many school districts. If you don't want to take the papers home to grade, do it during your lunch period, during gym class, during music class, during a teacher in-service day, etc. My SIL always takes the papers home, but when she gets home at 3:30, I guess she has time to grade a few papers.

I taught high school, I had one hour of prep time/day during the day and a 20 minute lunch break. During that time I did most of the stuff that I had to do in school like coping papers for tests, etc. that I couldn't do at home. To correct one 20 question test for 160 students (which was the average number of students I had/day) would take about 4 hours. Then you have to prep for your classes the next day (well, usually I was prepped 2 weeks out but what would have been the next day's worth of classes). Each class was about 2 hours of prep time and I usually had 3-4 DIFFERENT classes so that is about 6-8 hours unless I was lucky and only had 2 different classes (different meaning one history and one sociology course vs 2 sections of the same history class--I usually had 2 history classes, a geography class, a sociology class and a psychology class in a typical semester). So, IF I got home at 3:30 and had to do a typical day's worth of work I finished oh, around midnight.

Yes, I would have students trade papers for the quizzes I gave 5-10 point quizzes right from the text book readings they were supposed to do the night before. In this case is IS a GREAT review process. I never had kids correct unit tests. I wanted to do that myself. Sometimes peer pressure worked great to get kids to do homework, like it or not.

 

[ryka]

It is a legal doc but I cannot afford the time off from work to keep fighting the school. I tried contacting an advocate but they charge a lot of money.
I just keep calling and writing until he gets what he needs.Last year it took from Sept to Dec to get the aid and until 2nd semester to get the books.

My son has an IEP and if they weren't meeting his needs I would be calling everyone I can to get him the help he needs. When they first made the IEP they didn't want to follow through so I had a meeting with the child study team and superintendent of school and told them they were either going to do what the IEP said or I was contacting the state BOE and newspapers and TV stations. They didn't expect me to know what I was talking about or that I knew what my son is entitiled too. They know know I am not playing games with them. My son's education is very important and I will not let him fall through the cracks. I do have an advocate that I don't pay anything for and he tells me all the time I don't need him because I know the laws and fight for my son. It doesn't take up to much time to call the state BOE. They should not be doing this to your son.

 

[Lanshark]

We assign about 4 projects a year and give the kids PLENTY of time to meet the requirements. Projects are all about time management. Breaking things down into manageable portions.

As a teacher I would rather see a less than perfect project that I know "Billy" did on his own then see a perfect project that I know "Billy's Mom" did for him. It is always very obvious at the 4th/5th grade level.

 

[snowwite]

I was a teacher before I had kids but I have been a stay at home mom for the past 14 years. Most of my responses have nothing to do with my teaching degree other then having the background to understand some of the reasons behind they way things are done, they are more in response to my experiences as a parent and KNOWING that while I hate projects as much as the next parent, there are reasons for doing them.

Please explain to me why reviewing a test or paper by correcting it in class is a teacher being lazy vs giving students another opportunity to learn the material in class???? You do realize that most teacher go over the corrected in class papers anyway don't you?

I figured that you must be a teacher by the way you responded.
Perhaps you allowed your students to create projects with items they had on hand but we havehad to go out ans spend 25-40.00 on required items such as a tri fold presentation board,styrofoam balls of various shapes and sizes,tennis balls,special glue and tools to cut the balls for project etc,etc.It just seems unfair. I want my son to have his privacy. I want the teacher to be the only person besides me reviewing his work. I have also had to go back to the teacher and have her correct answers incorrectly marked as correct when they were in fact wrong but his classmate marked them with a C not an X so, no it does not appear this teacher reviewes the tests. One more thing, I probably would not hate the projects if I felt they had merit. But cutting magazine pics and gluing them on a box is not education as far as I am concerned. You probably disagree with my other thoughts on education too. For example the kids had assigned summer reading.DS had to read the secret life of bees and DD had to read several other books including a walk in te woods and the picture of Dorian Gray.These are not even close to what my kids would have read if given a choice. I was told this is because teachers no longer have time to review book reports so the entire class is tested on 1-4 books depending upon level. I think if kids are given a page limit and grade level but allowed to peruse the library and read titles they find interesting that reading would become an escape rather than a chore.Unfortunately I cannot convince the school on this matter so the kids have to read whatever the teachers choose. Last year my daughter had to read the Killers cousin and Whirligig and DS had to read the Bread winner.Both have disturbing mature themes and I would not have allowed but it was required reading. Instead of working as a team I feel I always have to defend my children against a bad school dept. Also our state now requires MCAS ( a strandardized test) be passed as a requirement for graduation. Many teachers now teach to the test rather than the curriculum. If they used the test to gather info and compare to other school I would be fine with it but tying it to graduation is wrong. I am carefully listening to candidates for the upcoming election and will vote for the one who will drop this test.

 

[JulieWent]

Indeed, you should vote carefully in the upcoming elections. Politicians have made many decisions regarding education without consulting educators. Please try not to hold those decisions against us (the educators).

Once again, though, as far as your son's IEP goes, I want to repeat, you do not have to hire an attorney or an advocate or anyone else. (I am both a teacher and a mother of a child with special needs, so I speak from "both sides of the fence.") All you have to do is write down your complaint and file it with the local board of education. Then write it down again and call your state department of education. By law, THEY MUST MAKE IT HAPPEN. This isn't a local law or a state law. This is federal. I have yet to meet a district that will not follow an IEP when they know that the parent in question knows the law and intends to "follow the procedure" and make it happen. Due process doesn't require either side to have an attorney; as a matter of fact, it discourages attorney action.

I know this isn't fun and required time and energy. But certainly it is worth it?

Julie

 

[Wishing on a star]

My son has an IEP and if they weren't meeting his needs I would be calling everyone I can to get him the help he needs. When they first made the IEP they didn't want to follow through so I had a meeting with the child study team and superintendent of school and told them they were either going to do what the IEP said or I was contacting the state BOE and newspapers and TV stations. They didn't expect me to know what I was talking about or that I knew what my son is entitiled too. They know know I am not playing games with them. My son's education is very important and I will not let him fall through the cracks. I do have an advocate that I don't pay anything for and he tells me all the time I don't need him because I know the laws and fight for my son. It doesn't take up to much time to call the state BOE. They should not be doing this to your son.

As the mother of a child with a learning disability, I TOTALLY understand and agree! My son will not suffer and fail and have inappropropriate expectations placed on him. And, neither will I.

His teacher this year is not even using the the school/board approved Reading-Language curriculum. She is using a hodge-podge of lame 'trade materials' that do not constitute a well developed and sensible curriculum. Much of this stuff is completely inappropriate and should not be given to my son according to his IEP. Also, because of this varied hodge-podge of poorly developed materials, the students are repeatedly being graded on concepts that have not yet been presented to them. Ohhh, but she does go over these AFTER the kids have been expected to complete the worksheets without any teaching or presentation beforehand. I am sorry, but using the grading process as 'review' and 'teaching' is as ****=backwards as putting the cart before the horse decades ago.

I have simply and firmly refused to "review and correct" all of these inappropriate worksheets which are sent home when the student does not get the correct answers. I am not on the school's payroll. I am not homeschooling. If I wanted to homeschool my child, then that is exactly what I would be doing. The school EXISTS with the sole purpose of educating our children. If they cannot do that in the 7-8 hour day that they have these children, (with reasonable and age-appropriate homework) then that is THEIR shortcoming, not mine. Expecting children to be devoted to school from before dawn until they collapse into bed at night is just plain wrong. I don't care what other countries are doing. That does not make it right. Not at all. Did you know that some of these other so-called 'competitive' countries who have such demanding school systems, like freakin' boot-camp, with days even longer than ours, also have astonishing and sickeningly sad child-teen suicide rates.

I am all for educating my child. It means far more to me than any of you could ever imagine. But, using 'education' as an excuse for all of these expectations and demands is just exactly that.... an excuse. The ends do NOT always justify the means.

 

[WDWfan36]

This is a process that's evolved in our house with DS. The "to do dates" are the most critical for us. If he's in a procrastinating phase he knows those dates are out there and he HAS to hit them or something else important in his life (like going to soccer practice or something) will have to go! Before he turns it in we review the time line and see where he should have given himself more time, etc. This process has really cut down the arguments about when he should be working on projects. etc.!

I do that with most of my projects too, if you set a deadline for thngs, step by step I think it's easier then trying just to do it

 

[momof2inPA]

I taught high school, I had one hour of prep time/day during the day and a 20 minute lunch break. During that time I did most of the stuff that I had to do in school like coping papers for tests, etc. that I couldn't do at home. To correct one 20 question test for 160 students (which was the average number of students I had/day) would take about 4 hours. Then you have to prep for your classes the next day (well, usually I was prepped 2 weeks out but what would have been the next day's worth of classes). Each class was about 2 hours of prep time and I usually had 3-4 DIFFERENT classes so that is about 6-8 hours unless I was lucky and only had 2 different classes (different meaning one history and one sociology course vs 2 sections of the same history class--I usually had 2 history classes, a geography class, a sociology class and a psychology class in a typical semester). So, IF I got home at 3:30 and had to do a typical day's worth of work I finished oh, around midnight.

Yes, I would have students trade papers for the quizzes I gave 5-10 point quizzes right from the text book readings they were supposed to do the night before. In this case is IS a GREAT review process. I never had kids correct unit tests. I wanted to do that myself. Sometimes peer pressure worked great to get kids to do homework, like it or not.

The only points you have made that I would argue are (1) time spent prepping for a class decreases after the first year of teaching the class, and (2) your time constraints don't justify having students grade other students' papers and embarrassing kids.

 

[snowwite]

Indeed, you should vote carefully in the upcoming elections. Politicians have made many decisions regarding education without consulting educators. Please try not to hold those decisions against us (the educators).

Once again, though, as far as your son's IEP goes, I want to repeat, you do not have to hire an attorney or an advocate or anyone else. (I am both a teacher and a mother of a child with special needs, so I speak from "both sides of the fence.") All you have to do is write down your complaint and file it with the local board of education. Then write it down again and call your state department of education. By law, THEY MUST MAKE IT HAPPEN. This isn't a local law or a state law. This is federal. I have yet to meet a district that will not follow an IEP when they know that the parent in question knows the law and intends to "follow the procedure" and make it happen. Due process doesn't require either side to have an attorney; as a matter of fact, it discourages attorney action.

I know this isn't fun and required time and energy. But certainly it is worth it?

Julie

I have been putting it in writing and do report problems after I exhaust local options. The problem is that I seem to need to go back and start again at square one every fall. This year I am more anxious because DS is starting high school and because the SPED director,assistant and Superintendant slots are vacant so I am anticipating that tomorrow will not go well.
As far as the politicians I know that the teachers union is not in favor of the test but the DOE commissioner is a huge proponent. I think he should be required to pass it or step down.