Inspired by the polygamist thread - How many kids are acceptable

[Alice's Mom]

I think it's acceptable to have as many kids as one can financially afford. But that is also idealistic. I know a lot of people have kids and really can't afford them and some people fall on hard times. I wouldn't want the child to suffer because of this so I don't mind the public assistance programs.

I think this is a great post, and I completely agree.

There is more to having the girls make dinner than just making dinner than having food put on the table... it is training for when they grow up and become mothers themselves.

Training?? I am baffled by this statement.

As far as the Duggars I am concerned about the children, they are home schooled, attend church in the home, and do not watch tv, mom constantly has children and the girls are cooking and the boys are building, I would be curious to hear what these girls want to do with their lives. Does any one of those girls want to be a minister, lawyer, doctor, tennis player, teacher or writer?

 

[In a hurry]

I believe that a mother with a large number of children CAN enjoy her children. It is only recently that families have become smaller with only one or two children. There are many historically amazing people who came from VERY large families. One of my favorite examples of this is Susanna Wesley. She mothered 19 children and spent time with each child seperately every day. Her children were amazing people, and you will probably recognize the names of a couple of them. John Wesley was a famous preacher and founded the Methodist Church. His brother Charles Wesley wrote many of the hymns that are still sung in churches today.

Those girls know that they are not "Mommy." I loved children when I was a kid, and constantly had a baby on my hip. But I knew that I was not that baby's mom. If anything went wrong I knew that the mom was either in the next room or only a short phone call away. I am sure that if there is ever a problem with an older child's "little buddy" they can go straight to mom, and I am sure she is happy to give lots of hugs and kisses to all of her children.

I have no problem with large families. I tend to like them. I think most are caring, and involved. And most are considerate of the older children, expecting family involvement, not indenture servants.

That being said, a mom who is constantly pregnant, and nursing isn't able to be involved with her other children to the degree that many people today feel is best. Children were not treasured in the same way in the past. The culture was much different. You had them and cared for them the best way possible because they were there. If you think that those mothers didn't shed some tears when they found themselves once again pregnant you are fooling yourself, and you haven't spent much time talking with those that actually lived thru those times. And, if you think those sibs never resented being overly resposible...think again.

Spending individual time with 19 children meant a few minutes each day. Most of the mom's that I am involved with feel that would not be enough.

 

[poohbears5]

It ticks me off that if you have a whole bunch of kids that society sees you as some kind of hero, that they think all you made all these "miracles" (NO they are not. All you did was have sex, not walk on water), and the media puts you on a pedestal for simply reproducing a lot. But if you have a lot of cats, you are deemed as a "crazy cat lady" even in this day and age. There's still that message being played out: "Lots of kids are GOOD. Lots of cats (dogs, birds, etc) are WEIRD."

I really can't understand why anyone would want a kid at all, let alone a lot of them. I just can't relate. BUT I think people have a right to have kids, as long as they are responsible about it.
But to me, having more than 3 or 4 in this day and age just seems antiquated, and I have to wonder if the woman sees herself as more than a "baby machine."

No I don't see myself as a baby machine.

 

[DVCLiz]

I think this is a great post, and I completely agree.



Training?? I am baffled by this statement.

As far as the Duggars I am concerned about the children, they are home schooled, attend church in the home, and do not watch tv, mom constantly has children and the girls are cooking and the boys are building, I would be curious to hear what these girls want to do with their lives. Does any one of those girls want to be a minister, lawyer, doctor, tennis player, teacher or writer?

No - and that's exactly the point. All of those girls want to be mothers of large families, and those boys want to marry that kind of girl and be the father of a large family.

It's no different, really, than any Amish or Mennonite community. A small group, defined by their religious beliefs, and outside the mainstream behaviors. But we wouldn't mock the Amish or make fun of their buggies, their dress, etc. Amish kids are every bit as restricted - they don't see movies, or listen to music, or any of the things we take for granted our kids will do.

Chobie, they may have been paid for their appearance, but I can guarantee you that TLC wouldn't pay enough for a family of (soon to be) 18 to live on for the rest of their lives. The family owns several businesses - the mom talked about them and said they worked hard to get to the point they were. I believe one of the businesses is a convenience store or stores, and another is a moving business of some sort. The implication was that they had a steady stream of income that could provide for the family's needs and support the sons and their families as well.

I still think they're weird, but it's because I don't agree with any of their philosophies or religious beliefs. I look at them as a curiosity, like any of the other shows TLC has like this.

 

[chobie]

No - and that's exactly the point. All of those girls want to be mothers of large families, and those boys want to marry that kind of girl and be the father of a large family.

It's no different, really, than any Amish or Mennonite community. A small group, defined by their religious beliefs, and outside the mainstream behaviors. But we wouldn't mock the Amish or make fun of their buggies, their dress, etc. Amish kids are every bit as restricted - they don't see movies, or listen to music, or any of the things we take for granted our kids will do.

Chobie, they may have been paid for their appearance, but I can guarantee you that TLC wouldn't pay enough for a family of (soon to be) 18 to live on for the rest of their lives. The family owns several businesses - the mom talked about them and said they worked hard to get to the point they were. I believe one of the businesses is a convenience store or stores, and another is a moving business of some sort. The implication was that they had a steady stream of income that could provide for the family's needs and support the sons and their families as well.

I still think they're weird, but it's because I don't agree with any of their philosophies or religious beliefs. I look at them as a curiosity, like any of the other shows TLC has like this.

The Duggar girls don't know they can be anything beside an wife an mother, that is the point.

And the Amish let their children run free when they get to be 16, I believe. they can pretty much do whatever they want for a few years, then if they choose to join the religion they are welcomed back in.

I doubt the Duggar kids will be allowed that type of freedom.

And the Amish belong to large communities of like minded people, whereas the Duggar's are isolated from any community except their family and one or two others like them

 

[MamaLema]

When you expect the state to pay your bills it becomes MY business since it is coming out of my pocket to raise your family.

 

[MrsKreamer]

The Duggar girls don't know they can be anything beside an wife an mother, that is the point.

And the Amish let their children run free when they get to be 16, I believe. they can pretty much do whatever they want for a few years, then if they choose to join the religion they are welcomed back in.

I doubt the Duggar kids will be allowed that type of freedom.

And the Amish belong to large communities of like minded people, whereas the Duggar's are isolated from any community except their family and one or two others like them

Actually they are in touch with many "quiverful" families, and they attend a meeting of sorts every year, maybe more. The children have internet access, and they learn a wide variety of subjects through their homeschooling. I am sure if they were only cooking and cleaning all day what you said would be true, but then why would they get to learn about banking? etc

 

[chobie]

Actually they are in touch with many "quiverful" families, and they attend a meeting of sorts every year, maybe more. The children have internet access, and they learn a wide variety of subjects through their homeschooling. I am sure if they were only cooking and cleaning all day what you said would be true, but then why would they get to learn about banking? etc

Wow, so they get to mingle with other people once a year?

 

[DVCLiz]

The Duggar girls don't know they can be anything beside an wife an mother, that is the point.

And the Amish let their children run free when they get to be 16, I believe. they can pretty much do whatever they want for a few years, then if they choose to join the religion they are welcomed back in.

I doubt the Duggar kids will be allowed that type of freedom.

And the Amish belong to large communities of like minded people, whereas the Duggar's are isolated from any community except their family and one or two others like them

The Duggar girls and their parents believe that being a wife and mother is the BEST thing a girl can be, and perhaps the only thing. THAT is really the point.

And the Amish youth, although I believe they are allowed to explore the outside world, are shunned if they choose not to return, aren't they? I'm not up on my Amish lore, but I believe I recall that choosing to renounce the Amish faith means cutting all ties with family. Someone who knows more might be able to help us understand the particulars of the faith. A pretty harsh outcome, if it's true.

Whether the Duggar children will be allowed to have that freedom is anyone's guess, as it hasn't been touched on in the show and it doesn't seem to be as much a part of that religious concept as the Amish "community."

I think it's a stretch to call the Amish community "large," although it's certianly larger than the Duggar family and their other church member families. Since I didn't see anything in the TV show that addressed exactly how many other people participate in this lifestyle, I really don't have any idea how large the "quiverful" community is

We can argue all night about whether it's how we would live, or whether we agree with it, (we wouldn't and we don't, right?) but the fact is, this is what the Duggars are choosing.

 

[chobie]

The Duggar girls and their parents believe that being a wife and mother is the BEST thing a girl can be, and perhaps the only thing. THAT is really the point.

And the Amish youth, although I believe they are allowed to explore the outside world, are shunned if they choose not to return, aren't they? I'm not up on my Amish lore, but I believe I recall that choosing to renounce the Amish faith means cutting all ties with family. Someone who knows more might be able to help us understand the particulars of the faith. A pretty harsh outcome, if it's true.

Whether the Duggar children will be allowed to have that freedom is anyone's guess, as it hasn't been touched on in the show and it doesn't seem to be as much a part of that religious concept as the Amish "community."

I think it's a stretch to call the Amish community "large," although it's certianly larger than the Duggar family and their other church member families. Since I didn't see anything in the TV show that addressed exactly how many other people participate in this lifestyle, I really don't have any idea how large the "quiverful" community is

We can argue all night about whether it's how we would live, or whether we agree with it, (we wouldn't and we don't, right?) but the fact is, this is what the Duggars are choosing.

Yes they have chosen to cut their kids off from the rest of the world and extremely limit their world view and choices in life. That is the POINT. No one is saying they cannot do that, or that there should be a law or a constitutional amendment to prevent them from doing that. Some of us are saying that we think it is sad.

And the quiverfull people don't all live together in communities-that Duggars keep in contact with them thru the internet and see other families a few times a year. That is quite different form Amish communities with tens of thousands of people living together. There are about 200,000 Amish living in three main areas, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana. They kids are allowed about 5 years starting from the age of 16 to go wild before they must choose the church or be shunned. They are encouraged to experience the outside world so that if and when they do choose to be Amish they will have chosen KNOWING what they are giving up. Yes, it is a harsh outcome to be shunned it is also harsh to be a little girl who has to make her own clothes, provide meals for 18 people three times a day, take care of a younger sibling and not be shown that there is a whole world outside of their compound where women have other choices in life besides bearing children until their uteruses give out.

And no, I don't think that oldest boy was allowed to go out and party after working on the house all weekend.

 

[VSL]

If I'm not paying then you can have as many kids as you want.
I do get worked up when I read of unemployed parents of, like, 12 kids who are on benefits totalling about £30,000 per year, and are complaining that it's not enough because all their kids just 'have' to have Nike, etc.
Then you've got the family with 12 kids who work and get by without benefits on just £12,000 a year..
(These stories* were actually run in a national newspaper a while back - I'll see if I can find them!)

I'm with Chobie et al. WRT the Duggars.



*I'm not sure of the exact facts, but this was the gist.

 

[MrsPete]

No, the point is this family is exploiting their children by putting them on tv to make money to provide for all them and in doing so is putting them out for ridicule because they know that their lifestyle is extreme.

If they were truly just interested in doing what God intended, then they would not be exploiting the children by putting them on TV, IMO.

Or, to take a different perspective, if they believe that God intended families to live in their lifestyle, they might choose to use whatever media influence they have to promote themselves as an example. They might feel that by going on TV they're showing people that it's possible to live this way.

Since the family is so self-contained (home schooled, home churched) and they don't watch TV themselves, it's likely that the kids are unaware of just how "famous" they are.

 

[MrsPete]

Spending individual time with 19 children meant a few minutes each day. Most of the mom's that I am involved with feel that would not be enough.

I think most moms today also fool themselves about how much time they actually spend with their children. Consider the amount of time kids spend in front of TV, the computer, video games. Consider the time that's spent taking kids to sports practices, etc. Consider the few families who sit down to meals together today.

Most kids -- even those from small families -- are hurting for parental attention.

 

[chobie]

Or, to take a different perspective, if they believe that God intended families to live in their lifestyle, they might choose to use whatever media influence they have to promote themselves as an example. They might feel that by going on TV they're showing people that it's possible to live this way.

Since the family is so self-contained (home schooled, home churched) and they don't watch TV themselves, it's likely that the kids are unaware of just how "famous" they are.

I'm willing to bet they are doing it for the money, not God. They think televsion a bad thing, but they'll broadcast their lives for the world to see it.

And they only time they don't cloisture the kids is when they are using them to try to get daddy elected to office or to make a buck.

 

[MrsPete]

No - and that's exactly the point. All of those girls want to be mothers of large families, and those boys want to marry that kind of girl and be the father of a large family.

While I think they're doing an acceptable job of raising thier children day-to-day, I did have to wonder what's going to happen to the kids when they grow up.

Where will these kids find marriage partners who want to copy this lifestyle? The pool of potential mates isn't all that large; some of those kids are going to be disappointed in marriage or will end up un-married. Their parents have enjoyed some significant financial success and can afford to support these children. It is unlikely that all these children will be able to follow in their footsteps; thus, they may be setting the children up to want families that they cannot afford. Also, the girls are going to be ill-equipped to work, should it be necessary.

These kids are very well prepared to live a life like their parents' (they know much more about taking care of themselves than the average kids); however, they are probably unaware of just how unique their family is. I'm sure they don't fully realize that there are so many other choices out there. This could be staggering for them when they get out on their own.

 

[MrsPete]

I'm willing to bet they are doing it for the money, not God. They think televsion a bad thing, but they'll broadcast their lives for the world to see it.

But my point is that they may see TV -- while not a choice for their own family -- as a way to reach people who aren't aware that they could choose to live that way. I don't know; I'm just putting out a theory.

 

[chobie]

But my point is that they may see TV -- while not a choice for their own family -- as a way to reach people who aren't aware that they could choose to live that way. I don't know; I'm just putting out a theory.

Or maybe they want the money and the publicity. Maybe get Daddy another shot at a career in politics.

 

[MrsPete]

The Duggar girls and their parents believe that being a wife and mother is the BEST thing a girl can be, and perhaps the only thing. THAT is really the point.

Interesting way to put this. I know that I have my own ideas about the BEST things girls can be (they don't completely mesh with the Duggar family's ideas, but that's not the point), and I'm instilling those ideas in my daughters. I don't want anyone else to tell me that my ideas are sub-standard.

 

[chobie]

Interesting way to put this. I know that I have my own ideas about the BEST things girls can be (they don't completely mesh with the Duggar family's ideas, but that's not the point), and I'm instilling those ideas in my daughters. I don't want anyone else to tell me that my ideas are sub-standard.

So, then don't put your family on tv and you won't have people on message boards telling that your ideas are sub-standard.

The Duggars have made their business the world's business by selling themselves on tv.

 

[DVCLiz]

Interesting way to put this. I know that I have my own ideas about the BEST things girls can be (they don't completely mesh with the Duggar family's ideas, but that's not the point), and I'm instilling those ideas in my daughters. I don't want anyone else to tell me that my ideas are sub-standard.

You and I agree completely on this - I woudn't dream of limiting my daughters to the Duggar viewpoint - it's completey foreign to my outlook on life. And my daughters wouldn't put up with it for five minutes, so God help the Duggar boys if they ever cross my girls!!!!!

chobie, your characterization of Amish youth "going wild" made me laugh. Wish I could see that on DVD - bet it would make "Girls Gone Wild" seem tame!!!! I don't think Amish kids really go that wild - maybe they just try the life the rest of us take for granted, before deciding whether or not to embrace the Amish way of life permanently. Maybe they do go wild, though- where's a 20/20 expose when you need one??