Impeach Bush

[poohandwendy]

Not that I don't agree with you, but isn't that a bit of a low blow while they are starving and dehydrating whether or not it is their fault to bring that up?

Actually, I brought it up to illustrate that we all play a part in creating that scenario by allowing people to be dependents rather than people who are able to take care of themselves. This is just a glaring example of what the extreme results of that can be, IMHO.

 

[totalia]

Then you've dilusioned yourself all these years. All politics are local. Why should I ( in Utah) have to pay for problems in Louisiana? Granted when issues start to affect the county as a whole then the fed govt should step in, but his is Louisiana's problem to solve first. Blame the President once everyone else has proven they've fulfilled their responsibility

Because that could be you. Because that is your country and its up to you to support your country and its people when they desperately need you. Because its the RIGHT thing to do.

 

[bsnyder]

I agree that they are used to being taken care of, but many of the tsunami victims were not in any better socio-economic shape. A great many.

Many of the tsunami victims were much, much worse off. But they haven't been relying on their governments for generations.

 

[treesinger]

I'd disagree that no one could have forseen the absolute destruction. It's been discussed ad nauseum for years and years. The exact scenario we've seen unfold.

But the federal government is not expected to have their resources in place for about 72 hours, regardless of who calls whom and when the declarations are made. Until then, the locals need to have contingency plans in place. And they sure didn't!

I'll disagree again about the absolute destruction bit. It is one thing to have it on paper. It is wholly another to see it with our own eyes. It is one thing to know how much damage a 747 can do to an office building. It is wholly another to actually see it happen.

 

[poohandwendy]

Many of the tsunami victims were much, much worse off. But they haven't been relying on their governments for generations.

that is my point, in fewer words than I could come up with. lol

 

[treesinger]

I don't see how it's a low blow. It's simply a fact. To pretend otherwise would do what? Spare them hurt feelings? I don't think that matters at this point.

But maybe we'll look around and do some things differently from now on.

I'm letting the kinder gentler side prevail in me. I just feel like it's rubbing it in. Like I said, I don't disagree. I'd just rather see hands carrying cases of bottled water right now rather than fingers pointed in accusation.

 

[treesinger]

Because that could be you. Because that is your country and its up to you to support your country and its people when they desperately need you. Because its the RIGHT thing to do.

:applause:

 

[bsnyder]

I'll disagree again about the absolute destruction bit. It is one thing to have it on paper. It is wholly another to see it with our own eyes. It is one thing to know how much damage a 747 can do to an office building. It is wholly another to actually see it happen.

9/11 was a failure of imagination.

Katrina was not. Or at least, it shouldn't have been.

All you're really saying is that you couldn't have imagined it. And why should you have? You don't live in New Orleans. Now you, and all of us, are seeing it all too vividly. And it's horrifying.

But the offiicials there - they absolutely had a responsibility to do more than just see it on paper. And they failed.

 

[poohandwendy]

Right! I was thinking to myself, "where are the natural leaders here?" In times of crisis, there are people who step up and organize things. They organize a crew and set about getting food and water, even if they have to loot to get it. I don't mind looting for survival in this case. They help in the distribution of supplies. They stand as a rock for the people to lean on. Where are they?!?! Are there none or is the media not showing them?

Exactly...I think we are seeing what basically is there...a paralyzed community with not enough 'natural leaders'. It is a social problem that really needs addressed, IMHO. Not just for disasters...but for our every day lives too. It should not take only a few days of extreme crisis to bring people to such a hopeless point without pulling themselves up and moving forward. JMHO

 

[bsnyder]

I think this is a very good example of the fact that we do not help people by making them dependents. We help them by teaching them how to help themselves. Obviously before something like this happens.

Yep. And we're seeing just another tragic example of unintended consequences.

 

[treesinger]

9/11 was a failure of imagination.

Katrina was not. Or at least, it shouldn't have been.

All you're really saying is that you couldn't have imagined it. And why should you have? You don't live in New Orleans. Now you, and all of us, are seeing it all too vividly. And it's horrifying.

But the offiicials there - they absolutely had a responsibility to do more than just see it on paper. And they failed.

Good point. Katrina and 9/11 have a few things in common. One of which is that we really had no benchmark to measure it against.

Yes, I really do think our imaginations failed us. Or, we could imagine it, we just couldn't possibly believe it would be so bad.

An entire city as been wiped from the country. I can imagine it. But seeing it in real life is...unimaginable.

 

[poohandwendy]

I'm letting the kinder gentler side prevail in me. I just feel like it's rubbing it in. Like I said, I don't disagree. I'd just rather see hands carrying cases of bottled water right now rather than fingers pointed in accusation.

You are right...I took the conversation off on a tangent and it really does nothing to help. Whatever social causes, we are here NOW. I hope this can turn around soon and we see some real improvements soon.

 

[bsnyder]

I'm letting the kinder gentler side prevail in me. I just feel like it's rubbing it in. Like I said, I don't disagree. I'd just rather see hands carrying cases of bottled water right now rather than fingers pointed in accusation.

No argument there - I'd rather see it too. But we can't be there, carrying the water. And maybe if we start discussing these things, instead of sticking our heads in the stand (that's a collective we, not pointing the finger at you) we can prevent this from happening again somewhere else.

 

[treesinger]

Yep. And we're seeing just another tragic example of unintended consequences.

Alright, seriously, is this the time, in the midst of unparalleled death and destruction, to be saying, in so many words, "you're idiots, it is your fault and the Left helped it along."?

It is as tactless and unproductive as auntpolly's call to impeach Bush when she started this thread.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I really don't think this is the time to speak from our political soapboxes.

 

[treesinger]

You are right...I took the conversation off on a tangent and it really does nothing to help. Whatever social causes, we are here NOW. I hope this can turn around soon and we see some real improvements soon.

Cool, we're on the same page.

 

[Independent]

Aloha!

First...Count us in!

Second...if a few bullets and deep waters stop the US Military from protecting American lives, heaven help us when THE BIG TERROR ATTACK comes again to our shores!

Third...would those who are defending this President's callous negligience also defend President CLINTON if he were still in office and reacted this way?

Fourth...even TUCKER CARLSON (in Slidell, LA) is angry asking "WHERE IS THE GOV'T"?

Finally...here's how I feel abouth THIS PRESIDENT's failure of responsibility:

Well! So much for HOMELAND SECURITY! We had WAY more notice on this hurricane than we would if there had been a big TERROR attack. Can it be that :
1. We STILL don't know how to get water to people if the water supply is cut off?
2. We STILL can't figure out how to equip FIRST RESPONDERS and POLICE with communication devices if cell phones go out?
3. We STILL don't know how to rescue people who are injured and dying?
4. We STILL don't know how to evacuate HOSPITALS?
5. We STILL don't know how to keep AUTOMATIC WEAPONS out of the hands of criminals during a crisis?
6. We STILL don't know how to organize truck/bus convoys to bring bread and water IN to dangerous areas? (We can get BUSSES OUT!!!)
7. We STILL don't know how to establish communication to keep the victims informed.
8. We STILL don't know how to set up a website to register victims and keep families informed.
7. We STILL don't know how to mobilize our military IMMEDIATELY!

Look! It's either we DON'T...in which HOMELAND SECURITY is a myth and the COMPLETE RESPONSIBILITY for this lies at this President's feet and we get our 22 BILLION DOLLARS back and HE GETS FIRED for malfiesence(sp?) OR....This PRESIDENT has CHOSEN to ignore the suffering of these people (even the sick and diabled in the HOSPITALS!) rather than devote the FULL RESOURCES of our GOV'T and outr MILITARY to this NATIONAL EMERGENCY in which case he is is not 'promoting the general welfare of the people' and should be FIRED! If he doesn't know what to do, read him the chapters in any US HISTORY book about FDR!

For PETE's SAKE! We liberated Europe, rebuilt it, saved Berlin by airlifting food in 24/7 for over a year, LIBERATED IRAQ!!!!! Just drop some water and bread from a helicopter to at least TRY to save some of the suffering AMERICANS!
~Rose~

Excellent post - well said

 

[poohandwendy]

Alright, seriously, is this the time, in the midst of unparalleled death and destruction, to be saying, in so many words, "you're idiots, it is your fault and the Left helped it along."?

It is as tactless and unproductive as auntpolly's call to impeach Bush when she started this thread.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I really don't think this is the time to speak from our political soapboxes.

I don't think we can blame the left, the victims or ignorance. IMO we ALL, as a community, allowed community to lose it's strength.

 

[treesinger]

No argument there - I'd rather see it too. But we can't be there, carrying the water. And maybe if we start discussing these things, instead of sticking our heads in the stand (that's a collective we, not pointing the finger at you) we can prevent this from happening again somewhere else.

I'm ok with dialogue. It's the appropriateness of it. Let's get a handle on the NO refugees first. That's where our energy belongs. THEN we can get down to the nitty gritty of American domestic policy.

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

You simply don't understand what this means. And I'm not going to waste the time it would take explaining it to you.

Let me make it easy for you...The president has the legal ability as Commander-in Chief according to the Constitution to nationalize the National Guard. Period...Even without state requests (which he DID receive in this case) he could do this the way Eisenhower did it in the 50s to protect the civil rights (and lives) of Americans according to the law. And once a NATIONAL EMERGENCY is declared as was done by this administration this week, he is definitely authorized to send in troops.

But when you get the chance, please do explain what the socio-economic status of these victims has to do with the fact that a) leadership may in fact be occurring...maybe that's why there haven't been riots yet b)these victims were told by local authorities to stay put and wait for food and water to arrive and they are following that request (not to mention the NG had initialy surrounded the Dome preventing acces and egress) and c) even Moses could not lead these people to water and food because there is NONE..that is why they are dying.
~Rose~

 

[bsnyder]

Alright, seriously, is this the time, in the midst of unparalleled death and destruction, to be saying, in so many words, "you're idiots, it is your fault and the Left helped it along."?

It is as tactless and unproductive as auntpolly's call to impeach Bush when she started this thread.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I really don't think this is the time to speak from our political soapboxes.

I'm sorry if it came across as a soapbox. And I'm not pointing a finger at the Left. It's our collective society's fault. And I'm definitely not saying they are idiots and it's their fault. I'm specifically saying it's not.

It was apropos to the conversation that unfolded, on this thread. It's not like I'd start a separate one to score political points.