If you've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, ask & discuss it here.

[Douglas Dubh]

Yes, you conservative morons can't seem to get it through your teeny-tiny little minds that it is no longer 1990, and Saddam wasn't a threat to anyone, much less currently occupying an ally.

If that's true, why did we bomb him in 1998? Why did we continue to enforce the no-fly zones? Why did we continue to enforce sanctions?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Douglas Dubh
If that's true, why did we bomb him in 1998? Why did we continue to enforce the no-fly zones? Why did we continue to enforce sanctions?

Because he wasn't fully complying with the UN resolutions against him (the sanctions), and because we thought he may be a threat in some ways (the bombings).

Now my turn: since the sanctions and bombing raids appeared to have been working, what authorization did the US have in invading AGAINST the wishes of the UN ?

 

[bsears]

In one of the more telling scenes he shows Iraq supposedly the day before the bombings. People are happy and eating in cafes, playing on playgrounds, etc.. He fails to mention that at any point their dictator could drop some gas on them or if they look at someone funny they will get their head cut off..

are you suggesting the Iraqia were too dumb to realize they should not have been happy? Or are you suggesting they were actors?

Watching the movie three kings last night brought a good point to life. Bush (Sr) was critisized for not staying to help fight Saddam, well Bush (Jr) helped defeat him and gets critisized anyway. You see with these liberal morons there is nothing a republican president can do that will be correct.

well, maybe if they actually do something right..........

MM makes this point for me numerous times throughout the movie. First he says we shouldnt have troops there at all, then it is we sent too few troops..

How bright does one have to be to understand this one....you should not do it, but if you are going to send troops in, do it right at least

Of course a good quarter of the movie is dedicated to stupid little jabs at Bush. Watching him get his hair done before a press conference, etc. When we all know that Democrats and Republicans alike have this treatment. It was these stupid jabs that the audience howled is agreement with. It made me sick. They seem to forget the disgrace that their last president brought to the country and to the office.

Ok...take out all the clips with no sound.....how about the president addressing a group of people and saying to them " some call you the haves and the have mores...I call you my base". Did that one make you feel good about your president? Did that one inspire you to think he would put your interests first?

 

[ggarriso]

wvrevy --

Marcus is suspended . You got any couches left or did you burn them all?
=-)

 

[ggarriso]

bsears --

How about when Clinton lied to a court and lied to the American people.. blatently.. No connecting the dots about it.. how did that make YOU feel?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by ggarriso
wvrevy --

Marcus is suspended . You got any couches left or did you burn them all?
=-)

Better a burnt couch than a "burnt" quarterback

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by ggarriso
bsears --

How about when Clinton lied to a court and lied to the American people.. blatently.. No connecting the dots about it.. how did that make YOU feel?

Ah...the old stand-by...When in doubt: blame Clinton

Yeah, because Clinton lied about a BJ, it's ok that Bush lied about WMD's...After all, Clinton's lie could have caused a dry cleaning bill...and what did Bush's cause ? Nearly 1000 dead Americans ? Big deal, right ?

 

[ggarriso]

wvr: I admit Marus is a loser. I acutally changed my nickname on hokiecentral to mvpot. hate 'em hope he never comes back. .

lied about WMD?? Have you read the news?? Maybe the intelligence he was given was incorrect. You all love to place the blame solely on one person there are THOUSANDS of people working in defense intel. (trust me on this one). If you think this decision was made alone you are sadly mistaken. Lying to the American people however, was a personal decision.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by ggarriso
wvr: I admit Marus is a loser. I acutally changed my nickname on hokiecentral to mvpot. hate 'em hope he never comes back. .

lied about WMD?? Have you read the news?? Maybe the intelligence he was given was incorrect. You all love to place the blame solely on one person there are THOUSANDS of people working in defense intel. (trust me on this one). If you think this decision was made alone you are sadly mistaken. Lying to the American people however, was a personal decision.

Ok, so maybe "lied" is too strong. How about "mislead" ?

But that's ok...I can see how a Hokie would have a hard time with the whole integrity thing..."We will not be going to the ACC"....After all, Jim Weaver is such a sterling example to follow

 

[ggarriso]

If anything faulty intelligence is to blame for the missing WMD.. Obviously the president is NOt the person who analyzes all this intel. Not to mention that the war was backed by many in congress did they all have personal vendettas too?? I just think the so called conspiracy theory is way out of whack.

wv--You should be thanking us you should get a free ticket to a BCS bowl every year if you can make it through the backyard brawl... that is until they take away that BCS ticket.. I personally LOVE the WV rivarly and hope that we keep that going. As far as the ACC bid.. you all would have went too should it have been offered.. its a no brainer. .

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by bsears
are you suggesting the Iraqia were too dumb to realize they should not have been happy? Or are you suggesting they were actors?

The point is that he portrays Iraq as this happy, great place to live while Saddam was in power. I think that's disgusting, but don't think anyone really believes that anyway.

How bright does one have to be to understand this one....you should not do it, but if you are going to send troops in, do it right at least

I think that's the point many anti-Iraq war people make, but that's not the angle with Michael Moore. He makes conflicting retroactive statements. For example, at the time he said we shouldn't go to Afghanistan because bin Laden is innocent until proven guilty, but now criticizes Bush because we should have sent troops sooner.

That's completely different than saying we should send more troops because now that we're there, we need to finish the job.

Ok...take out all the clips with no sound.....how about the president addressing a group of people and saying to them " some call you the haves and the have mores...I call you my base". Did that one make you feel good about your president? Did that one inspire you to think he would put your interests first?

You saw only part of the clip. Would you like to know the full story behind that clip?

http://cny.org/archive/ld/ld102600.htm

The Al Smith Dinner may have been the liveliest show in New York last Thursday, as presidential candidates George W. Bush and Al Gore donned white tie and took turns poking fun at themselves and each other in speeches that at times had the audience, and Archbishop Egan, in stitches.

He reminded his listeners, too, of the dinner's main purpose: "to raise money for angelic works in our Catholic hospitals and in our Catholic health care institutions." And he described various efforts that will be kept afloat thanks to the $1.6 million raised by the dinner.

The vice president, who spoke first, started right off making fun of his tendency to exaggerate and his boast that he invented the Internet. "The Al Smith Dinner represents a hallowed and important tradition, which I actually did invent," he deadpanned.

Bush, whose proposals have been criticized by opponents as benefits for a small percentage of the rich, said as his opening remark he was glad to join those on the "distinguished dais, better known as the top one percent."

"This is an impressive crowd of the haves and have mores," he said. "Some people call you the elite, I call you my base."

He also made light of his reputation as a non-intellectual perennial frat-boy, saying he noticed that fellow Yale man William F. Buckley Jr., the author, was on the dais. "We have a lot in common," he said. "Bill wrote a book at Yale, I read one. He started the Conservative Party, I started a few parties myself."

And you paid to be given that false impression.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Um...The gas was over a decade ago, and we've found no evidence that he still had that capability, so you might want to just stick to the cutting off of heads (and boy, that's declined quite a bit, hasn't it )

How about the tongues and hands and ears and other body parts? Sorry, I find it really offensive to take genocide, torture and murder of children so flippantly. I'm telling myself you couldn't possibly have read and seen the things that I have read and seen. That is the only way you could make a statement like that.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Originally posted by kbeverina
....And you paid to be given that false impression.

And you paid someone that thinks so little of you as an American.

"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug ******..."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnew...AWKWARD-CONSCIENCE-OF-A-NATION-name_page.html

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by wvrevy
But that's ok...I can see how a Hokie would have a hard time with the whole integrity thing..."We will not be going to the ACC"....After all, Jim Weaver is such a sterling example to follow

Well, as a Hokie myself,

Hi, ggariso

I disagree that it's the Hokies on this thread who are exhibiting a lack of integrity.

People want to make drive-bys, dropping in just to toss a few insults, never really responding with anything substantial. People make a big show of being indignant that I twisted their words so they won't respond to me anymore, when in reality I just asked a question. People just flat out ignore facts or questions that don't line up with what they've been told by Michael Moore or other left-leaning sites or friends, but take shots at conservatives for being lemmings and not thinking for themselves.

It would be great to debate this cordially with facts--wish you felt the same way. I think it would be interesting.

 

[bsears]

You saw only part of the clip. Would you like to know the full story behind that clip?

The fault in your logic is that you presume that everyone who took offense at this clip was too stupid to know it was a clip taken out of context. It was certainly apparent that it was given at a dinner and intended as a joke aimed at a specific audience. The point is, that is a time when so many are struggling, we found the joke to be in extremely poor taste. Just as many thought the jokes he made about WMDs were dreadfully insensitive, and yet his supporters rushed in to defend him for it. Please try to give people who disagree with you the benefit of some intelligence instead of assuming they need you to patiently explain things to them.

I think that's the point many anti-Iraq war people make, but that's not the angle with Michael Moore. He makes conflicting retroactive statements. For example, at the time he said we shouldn't go to Afghanistan because bin Laden is innocent until proven guilty, but now criticizes Bush because we should have sent troops sooner.

Again I say, despite your attempt to paint us as too dumb to understand what was "implied" by MM, we are in fact smart enough to figure it our without your editorial comments. The fact that we interprest it differently than you do, hardly is reason to declare we are wrong.

The point is that he portrays Iraq as this happy, great place to live while Saddam was in power. I think that's disgusting, but don't think anyone really believes that anyway.

The point he was trying to make is that Iraqis are PEOPLE, people just like us. That is something everyone forgets all the time. They are not numbers and not statistics. They are living breathing people, not pieces on some board game. We need to be mindful of this at all times. Otherwise it becomes all too easy to sacrifice their lives.

People make a big show of being indignant that I twisted their words so they won't respond to me anymore, when in reality I just asked a question.

when everyone is not answering your questions it is a good indication that they have put you on ignore and have not seen your questions.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Originally posted by bsears
......when everyone is not answering your questions it is a good indication that they have put you on ignore and have not seen your questions.

I've been following this thread.

The questions you (kbeverina) ask are legitimate. They go unanswered because an answer would reveal the fallacy. I don't see any fault in her logic, the posters are stating conclusions drawn from the edited clips peiced together in the film.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by kbeverina
How about the tongues and hands and ears and other body parts? Sorry, I find it really offensive to take genocide, torture and murder of children so flippantly. I'm telling myself you couldn't possibly have read and seen the things that I have read and seen. That is the only way you could make a statement like that.

Ok, so you would support our invading Sudan then, right ?

 

[Geoff_M]

They are living breathing people, not pieces on some board game. We need to be mindful of this at all times. Otherwise it becomes all too easy to sacrifice their lives.

True... However, Moore is as deceitful as would be showing the happier moments of people's lives in Cambodia during the days of the Khmer Rouge without talking about the mass murders of Pol Pot and then showing the Vietnamese army attacking and the civilian casualties that no doubt took place during the end of that reign of terror.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by bsears
The fault in your logic is that you presume that everyone who took offense at this clip was too stupid to know it was a clip taken out of context.

Where exactly did I say that? You made a comment about the statements he made and I asked you if you wanted to know where the clip came from.

And if you knew the clip was taken out of context, why wouldn't you be reluctant to form any opinions based on it? That doesn't make sense to me.

It was certainly apparent that it was given at a dinner and intended as a joke aimed at a specific audience. The point is, that is a time when so many are struggling, we found the joke to be in extremely poor taste.

This was October 2000--not a time when "so many are struggling". I could see being offended if the joke was made while he was in office and made light of criticisms of his administration that might be valid. A "let them eat cake" kind of thing. That would certainly come off as not caring. But he wasn't even in office yet.

Please try to give people who disagree with you the benefit of some intelligence instead of assuming they need you to patiently explain things to them. Again I say, despite your attempt to paint us as too dumb to understand what was "implied" by MM, we are in fact smart enough to figure it our without your editorial comments. The fact that we interprest it differently than you do, hardly is reason to declare we are wrong.

I think you're completely wrong about this. I'm not "patiently explaining", I'm being courteous. When I'm not sure what someone means, I ask. I take huge care not to assume what the other poster is thinking. And I don't have to presume anything about what another poster got from the movie--my comments are directed to what the other posters said they got from it.

The point he was trying to make is that Iraqis are PEOPLE, people just like us. That is something everyone forgets all the time. They are not numbers and not statistics. They are living breathing people, not pieces on some board game. We need to be mindful of this at all times. Otherwise it becomes all too easy to sacrifice their lives.

Well, exactly! They're people, people who were tortured and murdered and mutilated and had medical experiments performed on them and their children mutilated in front of them or taken away to be "Saddam Youth". It wasn't this carefree, idyllic life until the US came and bombed it to smithereens for oil or to avenge poppy or whatever the conspiracy theory of the day might be. I think it's disgusting to show anything different.

when everyone is not answering your questions it is a good indication that they have put you on ignore and have not seen your questions.

That might be. But I'd like you to point out where it would be warranted due to anything I've said. (thanks, OceanAnnie--that's what I feel, too)

However--I feel if you're going to ignore the questions and just drop off the thread, that's one thing. But when you continue to make drive-bys or you post the same things over and over again or post them on another thread and you haven't responded to the opposing point of view--I think it's absolutely appropriate to press for a response. And if you try to turn it around and make the other poster look bad because you can't answer the question, I think that lacks integrity. And people see right through that anyway.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Ok, so you would support our invading Sudan then, right ?

First, I don't believe in one-size-fits-all foreign policy, despite the "gotcha" attempts you see frequently when it comes to human rights issues.

What I wish is that the UN would react on behalf of the world community and at the very least, bring this issue to a vote. I wish this even though I don't have much faith that Sudan would take a UN resolution seriously. We've already sanctioned them, but without the rest of the world, it's pretty meaningless. I don't have much faith that France will be on board since they've been stonewalling international efforts in Sudan to this point, but at least a vote would bring that out in the open.

If the UN fails to act or even pass a resolution shortly, I would support as a first move sending US troops to protect the Sudanese in the refugee camps from further acts of ethnic cleansing and to ensure that the international aid actually got to them.

And I bet the regime supporting the Janjaweed would be less inclined to believe France if they try to tell them that they'll make sure they block military action in a security council vote than Saddam was.

I don't know what the administration is doing about Sudan, other than sanctions that have been in place for years and sending Colin Powell to no effect. If Bush tries to whitewash the situation for fear of political fallout in an election year, I won't be happy about that.