If you quilify for welfare do you get actual money?

[CEMinnie]

Speaking of selling food stamps. I just happened to be browsing Craigslist and came upon this ad.

200 dollars in food stamp's - $130
if you are interested please respond to this ad

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Let me tell you something. No it doesn't allow these things, nor does it do anything to prevent it. If someone has their boyfriend living with them, the extent of an investigation is to address it with the person receiving the stamps....of course they're going to deny it. You can't tell them they can't have guests or that the father can't come spend time with their kids. The government doesn't have the resources to stake out someone's residence 24 hours to see if additional people are living there. Once upon a time, the investigators would interview neighbors but people stopped cooperating and it became a safety concern to send these people to the homes of strangers. Not to mention manpower became a issue. So how do you combat something like that?

As for selling food stamps?? I don't know who my co-workers purchase stamps from nor do I do know who my cousins sell them to. So how could I do anything about that? They can't just cut someone's benefits off because of a random call claiming that person is selling their stamps. They can't follow them around while they make purchases. But they could do something as simple as put their photo on the card and make sure businesses make comparisons. Oh....but then they'd just start going to the store with or for the folks wanting to buy the stamps.

And the tax scam has been going on over 20 years. People claiming kids they aren't even related to. Sometimes people get caught because they claim a different child every year and some never get caught. Even the IRS is aware of how out of control this has become. Instead of making it harder, they've made it easier with online filing and you never have to see anyone that may suspect you're doing something illegal. Heck, most of these ideas came from the tax preparers themselves. These people didn't know about filing fake returns as self-employed until word of mouth from tax preparers. Again, this is something that can be fought but isn't. How can you receive benefits all year long for a child you say is your dependent and then someone else claim them that year as their dependent AND says they lived with them all year long?? How can you tell an agency you don't have any money coming in and then file a return as self-employed at the end of the year. It couldn't be done if there was a little more cross-referencing.

So what exactly am I supposed to do if the government isn't actively trying to stop this from occurring?

Why are you getting angry at me? You ask how do I combat fraud; if I see a crime, I report the crime. You say that you do not. Do you think that the extent of an investigation is "do you live with your boyfriend? No? OK, well that's good enough for us" or "Are you selling food stamps? No? OK, sounds good." That is akin to expecting the police to ask "Did you kill the guy?". They can do things like ask "where do you live?" and then explore the veracity of that claim. They can build a case on evidence, especially if somebody who allegedly knows a crime is taking place alerts them, but that is exactly what you seem to be declining to do.

The government relies on people to be honest and to report crimes when they see them taking place. Unless you want a gestapo-like police presence that busts into our houses at night to try to catch people in the act, that is how civil society works. It is the only way it can work. You say nothing can be done, but you claim you haven't tried to do anything. I just don't get it.

 

[ShayBells]

Why are you getting angry at me? You ask how do I combat fraud; if I see a crime, I report the crime. You say that you do not. Do you think that the extent of an investigation is "do you live with your boyfriend? No? OK, well that's good enough for us" or "Are you selling food stamps? No? OK, sounds good." That is akin to expecting the police to ask "Did you kill the guy?". They can do things like ask "where do you live?" and then explore the veracity of that claim. They can build a case on evidence, especially if somebody who allegedly knows a crime is taking place alerts them, but that is exactly what you seem to be declining to do. The government relies on people to be honest and to report crimes when they see them taking place. Unless you want a gestapo-like police presence that busts into our houses at night to try to catch people in the act, that is how civil society works. It is the only way it can work. You say nothing can be done, but you claim you haven't tried to do anything. I just don't get it.

I think murder is just a little but different. And can not be compared. The welfare office is under staffed an over booked. They can't check into every little report given so the best they can do is "check into it." If they even do that. They just don't have the time and the most they can do is talk to the person but beyond that there's not much.

It's ridiculous to compare welfare fraud to a murder investigation.

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[angwill]

I don't understand. You decry the fraud but you're not willing to help stop the fraud. You say it cannot be proven, but that's exactly what an investigation works to do, i.e. prove whether fraud is taking place. The system doesn't allow one to lie about your living situation, nor does it allow one to sell your food stamps, nor does it allow many other things you state are occurring. And some things, like allowing somebody else to claim your children on your taxes, is black and white fraud, as there are easy definitions to define who can claim a child. Help put an end to the fraud if you think it's an issue.

You know the sad thing is in a perfect world with a perfect government fraud would be identified, investigated, and stopped. The truth is I turned in someone who defrauded the government and hid money and told them where to find all the proof they would need to catch the person. In reality, they did nothing and first didn't bother to call me back when I left my first couple messages and then they did nothing to follow up on it. So essentially I wasted my time and effort and would not bother in the future.

 

[Granny square]

You know the sad thing is in a perfect world with a perfect government fraud would be identified, investigated, and stopped. The truth is I turned in someone who defrauded the government and hid money and told them where to find all the proof they would need to catch the person. In reality, they did nothing and first didn't bother to call me back when I left my first couple messages and then they did nothing to follow up on it. So essentially I wasted my time and effort and would not bother in the future.

Because it takes so much effort to make some calls?

 

[angwill]

Because it takes so much effort to make some calls?

I guess it was too much effort on their part to make some calls and follow up. I had physical proof that would have taken one to two calls for them tops to varify the fraud with companies that had all the proof they needed to recover $20,000 plus. Why waste the time to report something when there is no follow up?

 

[Granny square]

I guess it was too much effort on their part to make some calls and follow up. I had physical proof that would have taken one to two calls for them tops to varify the fraud with companies that had all the proof they needed to recover $20,000 plus. Why waste the time to report something when there is no follow up?

So everyone should just ignore fraud and move on. Not my belief system. If people don't speak up change never occurs. It sure isn't any work to make a telephone call.

 

[Janet Hill]

Speaking of selling food stamps. I just happened to be browsing Craigslist and came upon this ad.

200 dollars in food stamp's - $130
if you are interested please respond to this ad

Not that I agree with this and trust me I am anti welfare programs as they are today. However, you can't come to the conclusion that this person is committing welfare fraud. They may be receiving benefits legitimately.

With food stamps a person can only buy food and most programs run by private individuals/churches/community groups are soup kitchens and food pantries.

Food doesn't provide for gas in the car to get to work, money for the water bill, the rent and the list goes on.

Food stamp recipients could be selling their stamps to pay for other life essentials, and getting their food from the pantries.

No easy answers, but definitely too many folks are depending on the government (taxpayers) to exist.

 

[eliza61]

Not that I agree with this and trust me I am anti welfare programs as they are today. However, you can't come to the conclusion that this person is committing welfare fraud. They may be receiving benefits legitimately.

With food stamps a person can only buy food and most programs run by private individuals/churches/community groups are soup kitchens and food pantries.

Food doesn't provide for gas in the car to get to work, money for the water bill, the rent and the list goes on.

Food stamp recipients could be selling their stamps to pay for other life essentials, and getting their food from the pantries.

No easy answers, but definitely too many folks are depending on the government (taxpayers) to exist.

Agreed but the first step to finding viable solutions is to cut out the "oh she's a crook because she has her nails done mentality" and do a little research.

Maybe I'm more sensitive because I volunteer with the poor 4 days a week and they are not lazy moochies like it seems every one here is related to. 95% of them have more than one job, a bunch did not need assistance until this awful economy took hold and they lost the barely surviving job they had, some have very real disabilities and some also made horrible choices in their youth and now can't get a job.

I'm sick of them being reviled and stereotyped because they have a cell phone. and unlike the relatives on this board, most are NOT even dreaming of going to disney, they are too busy trying to figure out how to make the rent payment for the month. They will try and save up to send their kids to a relative during the summer. Not for them to have vacation but because the kids are out of school and they can't afford to feed them 3 meals a day every day over the summer.

Last night we began our sign ups for Christmas toy drives. We got over 600 family names IN ONE NIGHT. We'll coordinate with the United way and toys for tots to leverage jobs and I guarantee you someone after Christmas with this same mentality will complain how "they are on food stamps and yet wasting money on a toy".


And they are not the reason the country is in this financial mess nor are they the reason "I have to work hard"

 

[angwill]

So everyone should just ignore fraud and move on. Not my belief system. If people don't speak up change never occurs. It sure isn't any work to make a telephone call.

That is fine for you call all you want. I certainly would not expect you to change your belief system. I never said everyone should just ignore fraud and move on those were your words. Make all the telephone calls you want and let us know if any of them make a difference.

 

[ShayBells]

Agreed but the first step to finding viable solutions is to cut out the "oh she's a crook because she has her nails done mentality" and do a little research. Maybe I'm more sensitive because I volunteer with the poor 4 days a week and they are not lazy moochies like it seems every one here is related to. 95% of them have more than one job, a bunch did not need assistance until this awful economy took hold and they lost the barely surviving job they had, some have very real disabilities and some also made horrible choices in their youth and now can't get a job. I'm sick of them being reviled and stereotyped because they have a cell phone. and unlike the relatives on this board, most are NOT even dreaming of going to disney, they are too busy trying to figure out how to make the rent payment for the month. They will try and save up to send their kids to a relative during the summer. Not for them to have vacation but because the kids are out of school and they can't afford to feed them 3 meals a day every day over the summer. Last night we began our sign ups for Christmas toy drives. We got over 600 family names IN ONE NIGHT. We'll coordinate with the United way and toys for tots to leverage jobs and I guarantee you someone after Christmas with this same mentality will complain how "they are on food stamps and yet wasting money on a toy". And they are not the reason the country is in this financial mess nor are they the reason "I have to work hard"

I agree x1,000 Very well said!!

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[Muushka]

I think government is so big it has no idea who is cheating.

Anyone see the news about the IRS handing out BILLIONS dollars to identity thieves?

WASHINGTON -- The Internal Revenue Service sent 655 tax refunds to a single address in Kaunas, Lithuania -- failing to recognize that the refunds were likely part of an identity theft scheme. Another 343 tax refunds went to a single address in Shanghai, China.

Thousands more potentially fraudulent refunds -- totaling millions of dollars -- went to places in Bulgaria, Ireland and Canada in 2011.

In all, a report from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration today found 1.5 million potentially fraudulent tax returns that went undetected by the IRS, costing taxpayers $3.2 billion.

Those numbers are from an audit of 2011 data, and the IRS said it's put dozens of measures in place since then to crack down on the problem.

Acting Commissioner Danny Werfel acknowledges that "refund fraud caused by identity theft is one of the biggest challenges facing the IRS today." Testifying to a congressional committee in August, he said the agency now has 3,000 employees working on identity theft issues -- double what it had last year.

Here's how stolen identity tax fraud typically works: Thieves, using a valid social security number, file a tax return using fictitious withholding forms showing that they're due a refund, and have those refunds sent to another address. When the real taxpayer tries to file a return, the IRS rejects it.

But Treasury auditors have spotted a new wrinkle to this scam, in which the thieves don't need social security numbers.

Instead, they apply for what's known as an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN. An ITIN looks like a Social Security number, but it's used by people -- usually legal and illegal immigrants -- who aren't eligible for a Social Security number. An ITIN looks like an SSN, but begins with a 9 and has a 7, 8 or 9 as its fourth digit.

So, for example, the auditors found that the IRS issued 1,947 ITINs to individuals at a single address in Mountlake Terrace, Wash. In 2011, the IRS sent 194 tax refunds totaling $ 554,866 to that same address -- for returns that should have raised red flags. ITIN fraud totaled $385 million in 2011, auditors said.

The IRS now automatically cancels ITINs after five years.

One reason this fraud happens is that the scammers file the returns even before the IRS receives withholding statements directly from employers and other sources of income. Fixing that problem would take an act of Congress giving the IRS quicker access to outside data, said Michael E. McKenney, the inspector general's top auditor, in the report.

In the meantime, the IRS said it has new identity theft screening filters and developed more sophisticated data models to detect emerging fraud patterns. Since 2011, the IRS has stopped 12.6 million suspicious returns involving $40 billion in fraudulent refunds, said spokeswoman Julianne Fisher Breitbeil.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/11/07/identity-theft-tax-fraud-lithuania/3466663/

Seriously? Am I the only one who gets irritated about all the money this government wastes?

 

[eliza61]

I think government is so big it has no idea who is cheating.

Anyone see the news about the IRS handing out BILLIONS dollars to identity thieves?


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/11/07/identity-theft-tax-fraud-lithuania/3466663/

Seriously? Am I the only one who gets irritated about all the money this government wastes?

Nope, that's exactly why I get in a dander when we get fixated on some one using food stamps and apparently getting their hair done then "they are the problem".

It's easier to beat up on a poor person.

 

[Muushka]

Nope, that's exactly why I get in a dander when we get fixated on some one using food stamps and apparently getting their hair done then "they are the problem".

It's easier to beat up on a poor person.

I hate waste and abuse of any tax dollars. Welfare, croney capitalism, wars we have no business being in, trying to change countries that have no desire to have a democracy, education departments that are more interested in expanding their administration than teaching children, government workers who are too lazy to care about fraud because it's just the dumb tax payers money, giving away billions of dollars to phony green energy companies. I hate it all. We need to wake up.

 

[chobie]

I think government is so big it has no idea who is cheating.

Anyone see the news about the IRS handing out BILLIONS dollars to identity thieves?


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/11/07/identity-theft-tax-fraud-lithuania/3466663/

Seriously? Am I the only one who gets irritated about all the money this government wastes?

Absolutely not. This type of crime really makes We really need to be putting more money into investigating and prosecuting these white collar/economic crimes.

 

[lauradis]

I hate waste and abuse of any tax dollars. Welfare, croney capitalism, wars we have no business being in, trying to change countries that have no desire to have a democracy, education departments that are more interested in expanding their administration than teaching children, government workers who are too lazy to care about fraud because it's just the dumb tax payers money, giving away billions of dollars to phony green energy companies. I hate it all. We need to wake up.

The problem is we the people thru silence have created this monster.

The question is how do we stop the judgement of poor people and fix the problem?

 

[lauradis]

You can't write rules only to address the extremes. Most people do pay in - they pay before they have kids, they pay when times are good as a family, and they pay after the little deductions leave the nest. That's the cycle of taxation in America, not just for those low enough income to need assistance but for much of the lower middle class as well. Yes, some receive more than they ever pay in but most pay in more than they ever receive, and since you can't make a determination based on future earnings and tax rates I don't think there's any way to "fix" that. .

How about we stop allowing snap cards to buy everything edible in the store?

How about we stop allowing snap cards to be accepted at 7-11 type stores?

No matter how much we try to help some people will "work the system"

What the heck is wrong with making people more responsible with welfare?

Control and limitation have to start some where.

The fix is flat tax on everything you buy from house to underwear, just not food.

 

[Janet Hill]

How about we stop allowing snap cards to buy everything edible in the store?

Do we really need government to tell people what they can purchase. Most of these poor food choices are the cheapest foods.

How about we stop allowing snap cards to be accepted at 7-11 type stores?


Really - this is sometimes the only type store available to the inner city poor

No matter how much we try to help some people will "work the system"

Of course they will so how about a stronger economy to make people less likely to work the system

What the heck is wrong with making people more responsible with welfare?

Who's to say they are not responsible? Are they irresponsible just because they get welfare?

Control and limitation have to start some where.

Yes it does, but let's not assume it's merely those of lower economic status that are the problem. Lots of rich folk steal my tax $ as well - Think Solendra and the many corporate welfare programs available to bundlers or large donors.[/B

The fix is flat tax on everything you buy from house to underwear, just not food.

A flat tax (or any sales tax) is the most regressive tax possible.

I'm all for fixing all the problems. I'm just bothered that we initially blame the poor first. I just think that the problem begins with the head and goes down from there. The poor just end up being the whipping dogs.

 

[Colleen27]

How about we stop allowing snap cards to buy everything edible in the store?

How about we stop allowing snap cards to be accepted at 7-11 type stores?

No matter how much we try to help some people will "work the system"

What the heck is wrong with making people more responsible with welfare?

Control and limitation have to start some where.

The fix is flat tax on everything you buy from house to underwear, just not food.

The problem is that we (and yes, I include myself in that) naturally tend to look at the issue from a middle class perspective. Limiting the items that can be purchased with food stamps makes sense if you're assuming the family has enough resources other than FS to buy birthday cakes and other occasional treats, but for many that isn't the case. Not allowing their use at 7-11 and other convenience stores makes sense, until you look at some of this nation's poorest neighborhoods and see that those are the only stores you can get to without a car. And honestly, I'm skeptical of both ideas because I believe they're supremely vulnerable to lobbying and industry influence, and what you end up with may well be a system in which Pepsico is successful in ensuring FS still cover their products while small, local companies are excluded, or in which locally owned/independent grocery stores are lumped in with party stores as major chain groceries leverage their economies of scale to show why they should get every dime of the nation's food stamp spending.

But more than that, this whole conversation is predicated upon the assumption that "making people more responsible with welfare" is a major and worthy goal. I don't think it is. Fraud rates are low and the program functions as intended the vast majority of the time. Even maximum grants are not high enough to enable wasteful spending. If any changes need to be made, it should be in the resources available to investigate fraud not to the rules of the program itself.

And a flat tax is a laughable idea, particularly at a time when the country's median income is trending downward. All it does is tax people who are currently getting by into poverty, and tax those already in poverty into desperation. It decimates the "have nots" by adding a huge new bill to their already impossibly tight budgets for the benefit of "haves" who want to pay less taxes.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I work in auditing and several years ago went to a conference hosted by a (now retired) world expert in auditing and fraud. At that time, our state was paying out a lot of money in post-Katrina programs. The expert said something that, once said, seems fairly self-evident, but isn't until you hear it.

One of the unintended functions of any system is fraud. You can decrease the fraud over time by adjusting the system, but you will never get rid of it entirely.

In other words, in any program that you put into place, someone out there is going to be looking at it to see how he/she can defraud that program. Once you plug those holes, someone else will be looking to find other ways to defraud the program. If you have really good regulators and auditors and buy-in from people who are aware of the program or system you can eventually reduce the fraud to the point that very few fraudsters get any money from the income stream. So new programs will have lots of fraud. Older, well-funded programs will have very little fraud.

In any case, your ultimate choices are to either accept that there will be some amount of fraud and have the program (system) in place or not to have that program (system). The only way to have a system without fraud is to not have that system.

So you can have a military with fraud, or you can have no military. You can have social programs to help feed those who are hungry with some amount of fraud, or you can have no program.

It really put things into a new perspective for me.