Idea - 50/50 direct/resale to remove restrictions.

[wnielsen1]

Perhaps I’m just in a unique bubble but I just don’t see them going that high for a few reasons. First I’ll start with what I would say would be a fair price for this feature (at current market rates for direct and resale) - 40 to 60 bucks.

So the reasons.

Many wont do it at any price as they are more than fine with their classic resort selections under the old program and won’t care they cant book at RIV, VDH, etc.

If you take the average resale purchase at the better point per dollar resorts that are popular on the resale market (educated guess per the ROFR thread) such as SSR. The cost now plus the “wash” fee take the resort into the same price as the more “premium” resorts resale or direct (no hate for SSR - we loved it and look forward to going back).

There would be significant upside and free cash flow to Disney by doing this. Plus if they required you to maintain the direct to resale ratio to keep the points clean then it would discourage people adding their points to the resale market.

I think the biggest barrier to DVC doing this is they likely cant get the IT to work and they want to pretend like resale doesn’t exist.

As long as current management is in place, there won't be a direct to resale ratio benefit. There also won't be a way to wash resale points that is cheaper than just buying direct.

 

[Sandisw]

Perhaps I’m just in a unique bubble but I just don’t see them going that high for a few reasons. First I’ll start with what I would say would be a fair price for this feature (at current market rates for direct and resale) - 40 to 60 bucks.

So the reasons.

Many wont do it at any price as they are more than fine with their classic resort selections under the old program and won’t care they cant book at RIV, VDH, etc.

If you take the average resale purchase at the better point per dollar resorts that are popular on the resale market (educated guess per the ROFR thread) such as SSR. The cost now plus the “wash” fee take the resort into the same price as the more “premium” resorts resale or direct (no hate for SSR - we loved it and look forward to going back).

There would be significant upside and free cash flow to Disney by doing this. Plus if they required you to maintain the direct to resale ratio to keep the points clean then it would discourage people adding their points to the resale market.

I think the biggest barrier to DVC doing this is they likely cant get the IT to work and they want to pretend like resale doesn’t exist.

Don’t you think restrictions were put into place as a way was to encourage people to buy direct?

No issues with IT because any program like this would basically have them create a new contract for these points that would go into the membership the same say a direct one did.

Just doesn’t seem like a move DVD that allows buyers to save doing the resale then upgrade route vs just buying from them since they were the ones who decided to start down this road in 2019 of making resale contracts ineligible for new resorts, starting with RIV.

Now I can see some paying extra if all of a sudden, say in 10 years, they build a brand new resort at a place like Yacht Club. People may very well pay a nice fee to upgrade resale points..so they can Use them there.

 

[NVDISFamily]

Don’t you think restrictions were put into place as a way was to encourage people to buy direct?

No issues with IT because any program like this would basically have them create a new contract for these points that would go into the membership the same say a direct one did.

Just doesn’t seem like a move DVD that allows buyers to save doing the resale then upgrade route vs just buying from them since they were the ones who decided to start down this road in 2019 of making resale contracts ineligible for new resorts, starting with RIV.

Now I can see some paying extra if all of a sudden, say in 10 years, they build a brand new resort at a place like Yacht Club. People may very well pay a nice fee to upgrade resale points..so they can Use them there.

Sorry I’ve not given all of my assumptions as I already tend to write large walls of text on my posts. I’m also adding into my thought process what I’ve heard about average # of years that people hold on to DVC being like 10 to 15 years, so I’m guessing that there are more resale owners out there than direct??? Just an educated guess and I have no firm data to back this up, but that sounds right…..

So based on this, I would assume it would be a good bribe for Disney to get more people into the direct column and extract even more cash to wash their points. I also believe this would be a limited but lucrative pool of people wanting to do this. Heck, even I don’t have the funds at the moment to give them 26k or so to wash my VGC points if it were an option, but it’s something I’d consider in future years if it were made available to me.

 

[Sandisw]

Sorry I’ve not given all of my assumptions as I already tend to write large walls of text on my posts. I’m also adding into my thought process what I’ve heard about average # of years that people hold on to DVC being like 10 to 15 years, so I’m guessing that there are more resale owners out there than direct??? Just an educated guess and I have no firm data to back this up, but that sounds right…..

So based on this, I would assume it would be a good bribe for Disney to get more people into the direct column and extract even more cash to wash their points. I also believe this would be a limited but lucrative pool of people wanting to do this. Heck, even I don’t have the funds at the moment to give them 26k or so to wash my VGC points if it were an option, but it’s something I’d consider in future years if it were made available to me.

Not necessarily because when someone buys resale, they may not be buying from the original owner.

I just sold my SSR contract, but I bought it resale so that contract changing hands did nothing to increase % of resale owners,..just changed the name of one.

I have read that average over time is around 10 to 15% of each resort …others have heard maybe 1% a year of original owners sell.

Even at those numbers, it takes a long time to reach enough resale owners to make a difference in any way.

Right now, the ones that might have a higher percentage would be the 2042 resorts.

I do think it could be something DVD would do, but only if they have determined that it isn’t a substitute for going direct to begin with and that there is a market for people to pay a good amount to do it…

Just think of the pricing of sold out resorts. They have the ability to offer deals on those and make even a little money back, especially since they can ROFR.

But, with all the AKV and SSR we have seen, so for, no sales and instead they increased the price.

As I said, they could simply institute a trade fee through BVTC for those with restricted points to book RIV and future resorts later in the booking period but on a trip by trip basis.

 

[havoc315]

Most restaurants either do not allow BYOB, or they charge a corkage fee for bringing your own wine. So they either forbid it, or charge a fee for the right to drink your own wine.
But some restaurants have policies like, "you can bring your own bottle of wine, as long as you purchase at least one bottle of similar or higher value from our wine list."

It's a perfectly rational policy... giving some flexibility, while also protecting their own wine sales.
And it's just like your 50-50 idea. That would be perfectly rational. But there is no rush of restaurants to adopt the flexible policy.
Similarly, I don't see any major reason for DVC to adopt such a rule.

And remember, there actually are very few people who own both direct and re-sale. I know, on this forum, it seems like it's a lot of people. But this forum is NOT representative of DVC as a whole. This board represents the DVC extreme fan enthusiasts, not the average DVC owner.
Most DVC owners only own 1 contract. Most DVC owners own only direct. Some DVC owners own only re-sale. And very very few own multiple contracts that include both direct and re-sale.
So I don't see DVC changing their policies to make things better for this very very tiny subset of owners.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Most DVC owners only own 1 contract. Most DVC owners own only direct. Some DVC owners own only re-sale. And very very few own multiple contracts that include both direct and re-sale.

Not disagreeing with you at all. I actually have no frame of reference for this, hence my question: has anybody ever seen published information containing DVC ownership demographics and data? I would be fascinated to read that.

 

[havoc315]

Not disagreeing with you at all. I actually have no frame of reference for this, hence my question: has anybody ever seen published information containing DVC ownership demographics and data? I would be fascinated to read that.

I haven't seen any reliable published data. I'm confident in my general categories of "most" only own direct, for example. But I couldn't tell you if that "most" is 55% or 70% or 85%.

What reliable data you can find: You can find published the number of re-sale contracts sold and the number of direct contracts sold in a given month.

For example, in May 2022, 58,000 points were purchased on the re-sale market:
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...oga-springs-animal-kingdom-and-bay-lake-tower

But 180,000 points were sold direct:
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...acation-club-direct-sales-slowing-in-may-2022

So that would suggest, for WDW DVC, of all points sold in May 2022: 75% were purchased direct and 25% were purchased re-sale.

 

[RoseGold]

Heck, even I don’t have the funds at the moment to give them 26k or so to wash my VGC points if it were an option, but it’s something I’d consider in future years if it were made available to me.

VGC is the last points I would wash, because I would only use them at VGC.

The problem is us cheapskates over at SSR using our points at OMG RIV and RIV2.

I actually can see an offer to wash points for 2042s as the clock runs down. See how much 10 years of FOMO is really worth.

 

[RoseGold]

For example, in May 2022, 58,000 points were purchased on the re-sale market:
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...oga-springs-animal-kingdom-and-bay-lake-tower

But 180,000 points were sold direct:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/i...ove-restrictions.3890040/page-2#post-64165336

So that would suggest, for WDW DVC, of all points sold in May 2022: 75% were purchased direct and 25% were purchased re-sale.

You are missing foreclosures. Especially now, when DVC (RIV + SSR) can be underwater easily, this is a factor. Even resale can be underwater with predatory financing.

 

[havoc315]

You are missing foreclosures. Especially now, when DVC (RIV + SSR) can be underwater easily, this is a factor. Even resale can be underwater with predatory financing.

Not missing foreclosures. I'm only looking at points that were purchased by private buyers and points purchased on the direct market.

Foreclosed points go back into the hopper to become direct purchase points.

 

[RoseGold]

Not missing foreclosures. I'm only looking at points that were purchased by private buyers and points purchased on the direct market.

Foreclosed points go back into the hopper to become direct purchase points.

No they don't, they are a public auction, which is the opposite of a private sale. Disney does buy many of them, but not all. There are plenty of companies who do business in these auctions. I rented points from one once.

 

[havoc315]

No they don't, they are a public auction, which is the opposite of a private sale. Disney does buy many of them, but not all. There are plenty of companies who do business in these auctions. I rented points from one once.

ok, apparently I misunderstand how foreclosure works. I haven't seen any auctions where a private individual buyer can buy DVC points on auction. It was my understanding that if you financed through Disney, then it is Disney that forecloses and takes ownership of the points.
It's re-sale points that get financed and foreclosed by third parties -- And then those third parties then re-sell the foreclosed points to an individual buyer, they fall into the numbers I discussed as they get reported to the comptroller. Or are you saying that there is a market where DVC deeds get auctions to private individual buyers and the sales don't get recorded by Orange County Comptroller?

So are you saying there are monthly public auctions of thousands of DVC points to private individual consumer buyers that aren't included in the deeds recorded by the Orange County Comptroller?
Have a link of where I can buy some of these secret foreclosed points?

 

[RoseGold]

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...ing-a-dvc-deed-via-public-foreclosure-auction

Yes, there are a lot of these auctions, and individuals have done this. But there are companies who specialize in doing this. They strip out and rent out the points and sell. Foreclosure is a public process, just like a house.

The forecloser in this example is Disney's finance arm.

 

[NVDISFamily]

VGC is the last points I would wash, because I would only use them at VGC.

The problem is us cheapskates over at SSR using our points at OMG RIV and RIV2.

I actually can see an offer to wash points for 2042s as the clock runs down. See how much 10 years of FOMO is really worth.

Yes agree. I really don’t want to use VGC points anywhere else so the downside for putting these in their own resale point bucket is low at the moment. Just thinking ahead 20+ years from now, who knows if I would want to change things up and use those points at VDH, Poly2, etc…..

Yes, there are a lot of these auctions, and individuals have done this. But there are companies who specialize in doing this. They strip out and rent out the points and sell. Foreclosure is a public process, just like a house.

The forecloser in this example is Disney's finance arm.

Now I fear you have opened me up to the rabbit hole of researching about these auctions

 

[Maria_Ohana]

Here is a crazy idea I suggested to my guide and I wonder what the community thinks. Despite being crazy enough to buy at RIV, I think the resale restrictions there and likely at VDH, Poly Tower, etc. suck. I hate the fact that if I wanted/needed to, I can't transfer some of the points I own over to my RIV contract to add an extra day at 7 months, upgrade to a bigger room, and such.

So what if they changed the restrictions to be removed on resale points as long as you owned at least as many direct points (50/50). Say you own 300 points at VGF direct and decide you want to buy 300 points at RIV resale. These RIV points could be called resale unrestricted points and you could still use the RIV points to book at other resorts at 7 months. Or if instead you added on another 300 points at VGF resale then you would be able to use all of your 600 points to try and book at the newer restricted resorts at 7 months.

My guide said it didn't sound completely crazy. I'm sure I don't have enough power to change anything. If enough of us like this idea and word get's out, perhaps this could change things? I would bet it would tempt more people who are resale only to grab a few points direct?

That's a very big lift for the lack of Disney IT knowledge. Can you imagine the issues members will run into?

 

[havoc315]

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...ing-a-dvc-deed-via-public-foreclosure-auction

Yes, there are a lot of these auctions, and individuals have done this. But there are companies who specialize in doing this. They strip out and rent out the points and sell. Foreclosure is a public process, just like a house.

The forecloser in this example is Disney's finance arm.

? So when someone buys foreclosed points, the deed exchange gets recorded by the Orange County Comproller. Meaning, it is included in the statistics I cited.

 

[RoseGold]

? So when someone buys foreclosed points, the deed exchange gets recorded by the Orange County Comproller. Meaning, it is included in the statistics I cited.

Those statistics say private sale, which is the opposite of a public, foreclosure sale, by definition.

 

[havoc315]

Those statistics say private sale, which is the opposite of a public, foreclosure sale, by definition.

Ok, I see the confusion --- They are defining "private" as any sale recorded by the Orange County Comptroller that is not being sold to Disney.
A "public auction" still results in a "private" (non-Disney) person/company buying the contract -- and then recording the deed with the Orange County Comptroller.

 

[Brian Noble]

They're not going to encourage people to buy resale and then buy up to direct at a total price lower than buying direct to begin with!

Maybe, maybe not. The effective price of Marriott resale is still below retail pricing, even after the junk fees. The profit-per-point might even be lower on the junk fees vs. a concrete sale. On the other hand, Marriott does basically no work to collect the junk fees. They do a lot of work to make a sale.

 

[Kjdisney]

I’ve spent a lot of time reading about DVC, and have been confused on a couple of areas. Was DVC legally obligated to keep resale points purchased prior to 2019 unrestricted or could they change policy and make all resale points ineligible at new resorts?

The same question in regards to contracts that are grandfathered in with benefits. Could DVD change things to make all owners blue card members and make benefits in tiers based on number of direct points owned? I know it wouldn’t seem fair to many, but would it be legal?