I think I want a divorce...

[Tiger926]

WOW, so now it is even HER fault for making the mistake of marrying him.
Lovely....

She wouldn't be the only young person who went into marriage looking thru rose colored glasses.... or just simply 'young and stupid'...

I was not all that young... And I def. don't consider myself to be stupid....
But, I can sit here and say, with all certainty, that what I got when I married my husband was NOT what I thought I was getting in the package. There were issues there that, even though there may have been some signs, I never really saw coming...

And, you know what, for the early years of my marriage, I also tried to commit completely, and 'be the good wife', by compromising, looking the other way, putting him first. 'helping', meeting his needs and desires in life, with not enough consideration for my own.

Yep, I have personally, and completely, BTDT. You will find be being the LAST person to cast stones here.
Just thank goodness, we continue to work and make progress on our marriage, and it didn't come down to leaving.
And, no marriage is perfect.

However, Believe it or not, you have finally said something, and touched on something, that I agree with, and that I posted in my last post....

So, you have actually hit on the point that I, and few others, who have pointed out that she has both HELPED, and enabled, this man.... She really needs to do some soul searching, and perhaps some personal counseling, to figure out why she has, for this long, chosen to put and keep herself in this position, and have children with him, etc...

I think that this is VERY important.

Like I said in my earlier post.
The hardest part for her, right now, probably IS seeing how she, herself, has to ask about her personal responsibility.

Does that mean that I feel she has any, teeny-tiny, obligation to this marriage. No... Not at all. But I feel like she may best know which way and how to move forward in her life by determining just exactly where she is right now, and how she got there.

OP, if you are still reading.
I am sorry that this thread has gotten derailed by personal arguments with a couple of certain posters here.

I think we all hope that you do what is best for you!!!
And we wish you well.

Please, don't say that I am arguing with anyone, as I am asking hard questions as someone who has been there, done that with marital depression.

I absolutely 100% have never blamed OP whatsoever, why in the world do you think I brought up the depression? I have recognized that she is showing conflict and guilt to herself, so I tried to show her that depression could be the problem, and in that respect, she is not to blame herself at all.

As I learned in my hard work of going through this, you do need to ask yourself why you married your spouse? If he was a selfish jerk before, then there must have been something else that she fell in love with, since as I've said a million times, we have not been given a snapshot into their courtship nor newlywed years at all. If he was always a selfish jerk, and she married him anyway, then this will help her in future relationships.

My posts have been very detailed (way more info than I have ever shared about myself), in the hopes that it would help the OP. I hope that she has found some of it useful...

Thanks, Tiger

 

[Tiger926]

I keep thinking that to. If he has been like this all along, why did you willingly marry him? I didn't see any mention of forced marriage.

If you willingly sign up for it, you know what you are getting. You can't call foul 15 yrs later when they are the way they were in the beginning.


It also has to be remembered we are only hearing 1 side of this story. There could be a lot of exaggeration and embellishment to the story. Like the trash bag, for all we know it was the last quarter of his favorite teams play off game. I mean why now all of a sudden? It isn't like she married him and within a year realized he wasn't going to change and broke up, she thought he was great enough to stay with for 15 yrs and have 2 not even 1 but 2 kids, so why now? Maybe her idea of a clean house is spotless and his is lived in?

Perhaps there is another interest and she is trying to make her self feel less guilty? The point is we don't know the whole story, just what she wants us to know.

I don't agree with this. I asked why she married him as a way for her to see what qualities she fell in love with, or for her to see that if he was always like that, then he absolutely is never going to change. I don't feel she should accept this for the rest of her life at all.

There has been conflict about when the behaviour started, but despite that, I don't agree that she should accept cruel behaviour.

My point all along was with the depression, as it can turn someone into a totally different person. Like I said, been there, done that. In that case, you are going to get new behaviours, worse behaviours, scary behaviours, etc. that may or may not have been there before. Maybe they were there before, but in a mild form? Still doesn't excuse him from helping his pregnant wife with the trash, but again, I've been there, done that, while pregnant, and I knew that it wasn't my hubby talking, but the depression. His behaviours had suddenly changed, but that isn't the case here with OP.

I don't think there is any other interest either, as OP sounds exhausted and worn down. She has been fulfilling her duties and then some, whereas her hubby has not.

I do wish her well, but I am not blaming her at all for anything that she has presented here, which is as you pointed out, her side of events, but I have to take them for what they are, as we are in discussion with the OP, and not the hubby.

I do wish her well, and don't blame her at all for what has transpired, especially if depression is in there, as that is a huge demon to fight, especially in a marriage.

Tiger

 

[Wishing on a star]

... I don't think there is any other interest either, as OP sounds exhausted and worn down. She has been fulfilling her duties and then some, whereas her hubby has not.

I do wish her well, but I am not blaming her at all for anything that she has presented here, ....

I do wish her well, and don't blame her at all for what has transpired, especially if depression is in there, as that is a huge demon to fight, especially in a marriage.

Tiger

We are more on the same page here than I may have thought!

I just have to make this one comment...
Let's say, for example, that there is some clinical depression involved.

As anyone who has dealt with things like mental illness, addiction, etc... professional support programs, etc...
The BIGGEST lesson to be learned is that it is not the spouses, parents, or anyone else's demon to fight. It is not something that they should 'cover for'. That is not a healthy situation... It is not one that is going to solve the underlying problem. One can simply not be responsible for another adult. It is up to that person.

It sounds like the OP has been 'fighting' for a long, long, long, time.

Semantics, and before or after the wedding ceremony, etc.. etc... etc...
I am just not going there.

IMHO, perhaps it is time for the OP to know that it is okay for her to understand that she cannot fight and win that battle. If, somewhere, inside, she needs that understanding and that 'permission'.... then she is getting it from me.

Again, OP, we all wish you the best!!!

 

[Tiger926]

We are more on the same page here than I may have thought!

I just have to make this one comment...
Let's say, for example, that there is some clinical depression involved.

As anyone who has dealt with things like mental illness, addiction, etc... professional support programs, etc...
The BIGGEST lesson to be learned is that it is not the spouses, parents, or anyone else's demon to fight. It is not something that they should 'cover for'. That is not a healthy situation... It is not one that is going to solve the underlying problem. One can simply not be responsible for another adult. It is up to that person.

It sounds like the OP has been 'fighting' for a long, long, long, time.

Semantics, and before or after the wedding ceremony, etc.. etc... etc...
I am just not going there.

IMHO, perhaps it is time for the OP to know that it is okay for her to understand that she cannot fight and win that battle. If, somewhere, inside, she needs that understanding and that 'permission'.... then she is getting it from me.

Again, OP, we all wish you the best!!!

Ding, ding, ding!! This is what I have been trying to say all along.

You can't fight the depression demon and win on behalf of the afflicted person without that person getting the help for him/herself. But as I have mentioned, it does take lots of support, compassion and caring to work through daily struggles like extreme fatigue, unfocused behaviour and confusion. I was not willing to divorce my hubby just because he was extra crabby. Now, OP's hubby has manifested some pretty serious behaviours, and that is why I was concerned about depression as it can kill marriages and relationships...so I wanted to look at it from that angle. Not to excuse his behaviour, but to perhaps understand why he was like that? I don't want her to blame herself at all.

That is why I brought up depression in my very first post - to give her that permission that this may be something bigger than she herself has ever understood, but at the same time though, I have made mention of the fact that I did have to put my needs behind my husband's needs at times (never allowing abuse or anything serious like that), just like he has done for me along the way, and I was fine with that. My hubby was not like OP's hubby, but my point all along was for the OP not to blame herself, and to introduce her to the fact that hubby may have depression, and that is very difficult within a marriage.

Many people on here disagreed with how much help is necessary here, but they aren't part of my marriage, and nor are any of us part of OP's marriage.

I wish the OP nothing but the best in the road ahead, Tiger

 

[LisaR]

I have nothing to add for the OP'er because I think it has all been covered. However, I do want to say that this situation that the OP'er is going through is why some of us WOULD interfere when our 20 y/o DD is thinking of marrying her 26 y/o boyfriend who still lives with his parents so they can have sex without guilt while continuing to live with his parents. 20 y/o don't always make the best decisions in life and if a parent can convince them to wait awhile (or run away quickly) that seems like a wise parenting move in my book. Good luck, OP!

 

[disneydee6]

I wonder how forgiving everyone would be if OP's husband were a drug addict or alcoholic? Those are diseases as well, but most people realize that when the detriment to the family becomes too much, you need to cut the person loose to sink or swim on their own. You can't allow one person to sink the entire ship. There's nothing worse than being made to feel like you're the life preserver for the entire family. At some point you need to chose who to save and let the rest fend for themselves.

This!!

While I am sure OP sees how many people are willing to give advice and knowledge on the facts of depression (and what wedding vows mean...), the fact of the matter is that it is a disease and if OP had said, "My DH is an alcoholic and lays around the house all day and plays on the computer," How many would have said, LEAVE HIM! When a spouse develops an addiction or a serious bout of depression, it leaves the other to make a serious choice for the family, sink or swim. Even if he is truly clinically depressed, like I said earlier, it is not an easy task to feel like a single parent AND have to deal with a spouse that is doing nothing to help the family or his failing relationship.
OP is facing a choice that is not easy, and many spouses of people with depression or addiction struggle with this every day. Do I stay with the hope that things will change? Or do I know deep down that this won't change and make the decision to leave? It's not fair for OP to take care of someone who won't take care of themselves. A marriage is a partnership, and to me, this does not sound like one. Hubby has been selfish in your care, and it's time for you to be selfish for the sake of your sanity! Do what's right for YOU OP!

 

[BensDaddy]

Geez. Judgmental crowd here on the Dis...

 

[goofyernmost]

Geez. Judgmental crowd here on the Dis...

And this is news to whom???? The thing is that when you ask for someones opinion you are automatically asking what their judgment is. Opinion and judgment are one and the same.

On occasion...well quite often actually...someones opinion will not connect with your own and at that point, the opinion becomes a judgment.

Another problem is when a poster does not explain themselves clearly enough or without enough information then others, using a discussion forum, will have no choice but to try and fill in the blanks on their own. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. It's all part of the package.

It boggles my mind how people will come into a discussion room that covers just about all the earth and not expect to read things that they don't agree with.

This particular OP was pretty clear and in spite of that folks went a little crazy. They read the posts and subsequent responding posts with whatever slant that they saw in it. I know I did. I even misread Tigers posts because initially they sounded like it was a stick with it regardless of how it affects you because the person is ill and needs you to stick it out. Later she became more clear in her intent and it came in line much closer to my thinking. At that point it went from righteous judgment to supporting opinion.

Anyway, I hope the OP finds the way to solve this problem even if it means leaving it behind. I have experienced this problem first hand and I know how devastating it can be both to her and the rest of the family. I threw away over half my life. I can never get it back. I might be a little overboard on trying to get that message out, but I really know not only how much better I am now, but I also totally aware of what I allowed to escape my life experience because I "stuck it out".

 

[Tiger926]

And this is news to whom???? The thing is that when you ask for someones opinion you are automatically asking what their judgment is. Opinion and judgment are one and the same.

On occasion...well quite often actually...someones opinion will not connect with your own and at that point, the opinion becomes a judgment.

Another problem is when a poster does not explain themselves clearly enough or without enough information then others, using a discussion forum, will have no choice but to try and fill in the blanks on their own. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. It's all part of the package.

It boggles my mind how people will come into a discussion room that covers just about all the earth and not expect to read things that they don't agree with.

This particular OP was pretty clear and in spite of that folks went a little crazy. They read the posts and subsequent responding posts with whatever slant that they saw in it. I know I did. I even misread Tigers posts because initially they sounded like it was a stick with it regardless of how it affects you because the person is ill and needs you to stick it out. Later she became more clear in her intent and it came in line much closer to my thinking. At that point it went from righteous judgment to supporting opinion.

Anyway, I hope the OP finds the way to solve this problem even if it means leaving it behind. I have experienced this problem first hand and I know how devastating it can be both to her and the rest of the family. I threw away over half my life. I can never get it back. I might be a little overboard on trying to get that message out, but I really know not only how much better I am now, but I also totally aware of what I allowed to escape my life experience because I "stuck it out".

Tiger

 

[bdcp]

Everyone needs to remember there are ALWAYS three sides to every story. His, hers and the truth. Each always thinks they're telling the whole story, but never really are. People don't tend to tell what doesn't make them look good or the victim or whatever. I never, ever immediately jump on the bandwagon of whoever gets to me first with their story. I'm not saying OP isn't telling the truth, but I am saying, it's only one side. He may very well be depressed. People can have varying degrees of depression for years. Or, he might not be, but we can't diagnose him from the OP's statements.

 

[BensDaddy]

I'm sorry but I doubt that the OP came here to suffer self righteous indignation of the anonymous peanut gallery.

 

[bdcp]

I'm sorry but I doubt that the OP came here to suffer self righteous indignation of the anonymous peanut gallery.

But, she did post on a public board and ask people she doesn't know for their opinions. It's the "peanut gallery" when it's unsolicited.

 

[esk]

OP, please move forward with the divorce.

My friend is in a similar situation....her husband hasn't worked in YEARS and has a graduate degree, but "can't find work". He lies on the couch all day although lately, she has gotten him to do some laundry, I think, and that was a victory. Her kids are 10 and 8; she was going to divorce him 8 years ago but found out she was pregnant and decided to stay because she thought being a single mom would be too hard, and he told her he'd take her to court and bleed her dry with palimony, joint custody, etc. She doesn't even make much, she's a teacher, and she covers ALL their expenses.

What hurts is to see her spend her life not miserable but not happy....they share the soccer carpooling, the dance recitals, the Christmas presents, but she isn't happy. She says the second the youngest is 18 she's out of there. (That's a long time from now) Her husband is content to laze around all day, although to be fair, he does save her on before/after school child care costs. She is paying for summer camp though (rather, her mom is) because they all agree he "can't handle" the kids home all day. She can't even trust him to go grocery shopping because he only buys ice cream, coke, chips, and is constantly running up the credit cards. If he is in charge of dinner, he orders pizza, another expense they don't need. The house isn't particularly clean so I'm guessing he is responsible for that. She has written the resume, sent the cover letters, she even applied on line for jobs in his name, but he blows every interview. I think he does it on purpose.

By the time she "gets out of there", she'll be 52. I'm not saying that's old, or life is half gone, or "over" she will have wasted 17 years of it just "going along to get along" because she thinks it's easier than making a break and going after actual happiness.

I don't know how old you are, but do you want to be unhappy for the next 10, 15 years and start over again later, when you know NOW that this isn't what you want?

And pull a Katie Holmes....don't let him know what you're doing until you've talked to a lawyer and have a plan.

 

[PinkLemonade7503]

I didn't read every reply, but I did want to offer my experience. I know I don't know the ins and outs of your life, and I place no judgement on whatever you decide. I just want to make sure you think of every angle.

My parents had a "good" divorce, and I can honestly say I would have preferred they stayed together and been unhappy. There is more to marriage than your happiness, your main objective now is to raise your children. It will pain them to watch you date, and unfortunately it is even harder to find quality people the second time around.

I am thirty now, and still have to deal with effects of their decision. I am having a baby blessing for my new baby, and it is such a juggling act of who will come, and who will stay where and when, etc. I wish I didn't still have to deal with the repercussions of their decision. They both regret getting divorced. I couldn't have both my parents see my daughter the day she was born, bc I live a few hours away, and it would have been awkward for all if we had all been together.

You may think he is a bad example for your kids, but what about the people he may date? What kind of example will they be? They will be disciplining and helping to raise your children too. You will have a lot less control over their futures.

And, about the depression... Although unemployment is a very common reason for depression, if he is depressed now, he has probably had depressive tendencies all a long. It is a sickness, and it is treatable. The thing about depression is that the depressed person will not see they are depressed for a long time. He wasn't hiding it, he just ddn't know. For some people, it manifests differently. At first it just feels like you are having a lazy day, and want to relax in front of the tv. Next thing you know you have been doing that for weeks, months or years.

Mental health issues are so hard, bc they really affect the whole family, and can be so subtle. He probably feels very overwhelmed. I believe him when he says that he wants to make things better. He probably doesn't know how to, though. Perhaps break it down for him in little steps, and let him know that the house being picked up is important to you, etc. you will have to take the initiative to set up counseling. He just isn't there right now, although I am sure he would like a happier marriage, too.

And, I know the comment about picking one- picking up or job hunting was rude, but a lot of men like to do things one at a time. My husband is the exact same way, and he is a doctor. If I ask him to do something while he is doing something else, he gets quite flustered. Over the years we have figured this out, and now I try not to ask him to do several things at once, and when I do, he tries not to freak out.

Good luck! I know you have lots of hard work ahead of you, no matter which direction you choose.

 

[okeydokey]

My friend had a husband like this. The funny thing is that HE initiated the divorce, and convinced her to pay him alimony. Once on his own, he was perfectly able to get a job. He collects his check, her alimony money and is off the hook for child support. He doesn't know it yet, but she has a lawyer ready to renegotiate the alimony because she is not making ends meet financially.

OP, your husband will take care of himself when he has to, and not a moment before.

 

[Disney Doll]

This wasn't my position, but I must then ask again: why did she marry him?

Tiger

I'm guessing because she was 20 when they married an like most 20 year olds, not too well-versed in the ways of the world, he was older, maybe stabler at the time, maybe she thought she could change him, maybe she had an unhappy home life with her parents and wanted out.

There are lots of reasons why a 20 year old would do things that a 35 year old wouldn't.

 

[Andtototoo]

OP, please move forward with the divorce.

My friend is in a similar situation....her husband hasn't worked in YEARS and has a graduate degree, but "can't find work". He lies on the couch all day although lately, she has gotten him to do some laundry, I think, and that was a victory. Her kids are 10 and 8; she was going to divorce him 8 years ago but found out she was pregnant and decided to stay because she thought being a single mom would be too hard, and he told her he'd take her to court and bleed her dry with palimony, joint custody, etc. She doesn't even make much, she's a teacher, and she covers ALL their expenses.

What hurts is to see her spend her life not miserable but not happy....they share the soccer carpooling, the dance recitals, the Christmas presents, but she isn't happy. She says the second the youngest is 18 she's out of there. (That's a long time from now) Her husband is content to laze around all day, although to be fair, he does save her on before/after school child care costs. She is paying for summer camp though (rather, her mom is) because they all agree he "can't handle" the kids home all day. She can't even trust him to go grocery shopping because he only buys ice cream, coke, chips, and is constantly running up the credit cards. If he is in charge of dinner, he orders pizza, another expense they don't need. The house isn't particularly clean so I'm guessing he is responsible for that. She has written the resume, sent the cover letters, she even applied on line for jobs in his name, but he blows every interview. I think he does it on purpose.

By the time she "gets out of there", she'll be 52. I'm not saying that's old, or life is half gone, or "over" she will have wasted 17 years of it just "going along to get along" because she thinks it's easier than making a break and going after actual happiness.

I don't know how old you are, but do you want to be unhappy for the next 10, 15 years and start over again later, when you know NOW that this isn't what you want?

And pull a Katie Holmes....don't let him know what you're doing until you've talked to a lawyer and have a plan.

My mother waited until she was 50 to leave my father. She died at the age of 58 (just turned 58). She had 30 unhappy years and only 8 good years before she died. I truly hope no one portions out their lives like that. One lesson it taught me was that life is not a dress rehearsal. It's the real thing, the only thing you've got. Don't waste it.

I know one reason she stayed with him was for the kids and it makes me sick to think of her being a human sacrifice like that. As her child, I would have never ever wanted her to sacrifice her LIFE based upon the idea that we would have been better off with them married instead of unmarried.

After she left my father, she turned into a different person -- one of her old friends said to me, "That's the woman I used to know. I thought she as dead and buried. But it was just him holding her down. I'm so glad she's found happiness again." And the truth was, she was a much better mother when she was happy too.

Interestingly enough, my sister married a man just like our father. She was going down the same exact path as our mother when our mother died so young. It was a huge wake up call for my sister, when she realized my mother had only had 8 good years as an adult. She basically went from the funeral to a divorce lawyer and got out before she'd wasted 30 years. I applaud her for making that choice.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

I'm guessing because she was 20 when they married an like most 20 year olds, not too well-versed in the ways of the world, he was older, maybe stabler at the time, maybe she thought she could change him, maybe she had an unhappy home life with her parents and wanted out.

There are lots of reasons why a 20 year old would do things that a 35 year old wouldn't.

Amen baby. Heck, there are things I put up with at 35 that make me wanna puke at 49. You live, you learn. Things change, you realize you don't have to put up with his/her **** anymore, so...you don't.

Best of luck honey.

 

[chloelovesdisney]

I would not work and financially support a man, and a lazy one at that. He's not even doing his fair share at home. I would have left him long ago, you have a lot of patience and a kind heart. I don't know what state you are in, but even if he is entitled to alimony, in many states it's for a limited time. My friend got it for only three years and was a SAHM for the ten years she was married and had four kids (the child support does continue). You would still be better off paying the three years of alimony, rather than continuing to support him till the end of time.

I'm very sorry for these troubles and wish you future happiness. You do deserve better. Don't let anyone tell you that you should be forced into a lifetime of misery because you made a bad choice long ago. You only live once, make the most of the time you have left.

 

[disney junky]

If you want to get out of the marriage, you are going to do it regardless of what anyone tells you. The vast majority of posters here are telling you to kick the lazy bum to the curb. A few have suggested that a marriage vow is a unique and sacred commitment to be taken very seriously. Most have stories from their own experiences or have shared the experiences of someone they know. Heck, even Tom and Kat have been mentioned.

If you came here to get support for your decision, you got it. It appears you have grown weary of the man and your marriage. You are tired of supporting the entire family. Sorry it's worked out like that for you.

I'm kind of old. I'm a man. And I've had some ups and downs in my 30 years of marriage. Here is my two cents, and then I'm done. You say he's a good man. That alone says to me that you haven't lost all hope. You have children. My parents divorced when I was 17 and I still resent some of the selfishness that caused it on BOTH sides. You have two children. Don't underestimate the emotional toll on them. Don't buy the quality over quantity argument. It sounds good but it's really just words. I look at a marriage as the most sacred of commitments because we change over the years (think mid-life crisis and menopause). If we view it like a job and I'm working harder than my spouse, then it's easy to get a new job. If we view it as a means to happiness, we will be disappointed, because I truly believe that happiness is fleeting and love is an action. If you determine to love your husband not because of who he is but in spite of who he is, you can save this. Easy...no way.