I think I want a divorce...

[focusondisney]

I think there is a difference between it being (or allowing it to become) a standing habit, as so many helicopter parents do, and helping a loved one through a tough time. And I don't think it is a question of them not being smart enough to know better. I think depression gets in the way of grasping the obvious solutions, and that defensiveness and resentment get in the way of working out of that mindset.

I don't know the OP's entire situation, but I knew in mine that it was a temporary problem that just needed to be worked through - DH dreamed since he was very young of being his own boss and took it very hard when that dream didn't look like it would pan out because work is a huge part of his identity. Seeing our household income fall by half and finding himself suddenly "worthless" in the working world was something that hit him very hard. And the fact is, me dwelling on every thing he'd done or left undone that annoyed me was making the situation worse. If you'd asked me then I probably would have said he was always that way, just not as bad when he was working, but that would have been my frustration and anger talking.

I think that if the genders were reversed here the opinions would be very different. If it was the wife who, after some major life event that caused her to question her identity and undermined her self-worth, was withdrawn and not a functioning member of the household the chorus would be "Get her help", not "Leave her lazy butt". There is still very much a double standard when it comes to these things, with men expected to be tougher and being judged more harshly for not just sucking it up and going on with life.

The OP has given examples of his actions from before he lost his job. She has a 3 year old & when she was pregnant with that child, he wouldn't even hold a garbage bag open for her. He was 29 when they married & living home. This is not a man who suddenly lost his self esteem & is depressed. She said it herself.....he is LAZY. Someone who is so depressed he would let his children live in a filthy house is also too depressed to play on the computer & go to the track.

Belittling your wife for bettering herself and neglecting your children is not my idea of a nice person. The guy sounds like a lazy manipulator, not a nice guy tempoarily depressed. And if it was a woman, I'd think she was a lazy manipulator & advocate leaving her too.

 

[horseshowmom]

Get some dvd's for the kids, then cancel the cable and the internet.

For his 1 hour of job searching on the net every day he can head to the library.

Start leaving a note in the morning for the tasks that have to be done that day.

If you sit at the kitchen table with him and lay out that you are going to work, and he has to pick up some chores during the day, what is he going to say?

If he doesn't like it, what's he going to do, leave? That will put you exactly where you are expecting to be anyway, so give it a shot.

I agree with Bob about this. That takes away two of his time wasting activities. What's he going to do about it? You make the money and pay the bills.

She was working, taking care of the kids and the house, while he decided to screw up his life. When you have a responsibility (kids, a mortgage, etc) you need to step up or get out. He probably was suffering from depression, but there is only so much someone can put up with while ALSO taking on the responsibilities of a single parent. She did end up having to pay alimony (which she paid in a lump sum) but for her it was worth it to get her life back. And it's time for you to get YOUR life back.

He may or may not be suffering from depression, but he doesn't seem to be doing anything to get any help. This is a long term, ingrained pattern with him, and he's probably not going to change unless forced.

I am a firm believer in trying to save a marriage and family, but the OP's husband sounds like he needs some shock therapy. I see nothing wrong with a trial separation while she watches to see whether he actually does intend to make longlasting changes - if he's depressed, get treatment; look for a job and take whatever he can find; and be willing to become a contributing member of the the family and society. If he's not, he may not need to return home.

 

[minnieandmickey]

yep make sure your check is going to your account only then make positivialy sure your belly is full of this man and his issues or you will be back and forth and that is very hard on the kids...you know already he will not be paying support and in Indiana now they have living arrangements for those guys....many used to say well they can't pay if in jail WELL they weren't anyhow. and doubtful you would have to pay him alimony..that is for very wealthy people with huge assets and that rare. normally I would suggest counseling but you said he won't go but you still should as it helps us just to go alone. my ex blames the counsler for our divorce.. of course nothing was his fault. but I was doing same thing taking care of three kids and every thing plus him. the freedom was unreal. and always remember another person ONLY gets away with what they can----------------------------------------and it then becomes their life style

Alimony is not for very wealthy people. My brother is in the same situation as the poster and SHE wound up with the kids because he works, she got fired on a HIPA violation. She is now getting 40% of his income in child and spousal support; they were married 12 years when SHE left the household. He works as a pole climber for ATT. He is now living check to check and discovering all the wonderful credit cards she took out that with her low life mentor, uh I mean best friend, that he is responsible for 1/2! He also discovered the bag of bills that he thought she was paying. He has now idea where the money went! He has lost his house and is now having to file for bankruptcy. YET She is now receiving more in support than I do working full time; and he is still the one doing everything for the kids!

You want to divorce the lazy bum yes, but please please please prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

 

[disneychic2]

First let me say how sorry I am that you are faced with this difficult choice. It is gut wrenching and scary. I am in favor of a trial separation. That will let him know you are serious and maybe give him the motivation to seek help if needed and a job as well. I agree that, as a man who lived at home until age 29, he was already displaying the need to be looked after and cared for. If he truly is clinically depressed, not just saying that as an excuse, then of course he needs to seek help. This separation may be the jump start he needs to get that help.

There was a guy in our church who lost his job as a chemical engineer due to down-sizing and he got a job delivering pizzas for Dominos. Was it beneath him? You bet. But he said he couldn't pass up an opportunity to provide for his family while waiting for another job in his field to materialize. I'm sure that was less than pleasant and very humbling. But he sucked it up and did it.

Op, please do something to change the situation you're in. Those boys don't need to see this example of manhood, parenting, marriage. By asking for a separation instead of a divorce, you have time to get your ducks in a row in case he doesn't make the necessary changes needed to be a productive member of society. I'm hoping and praying for the best for you, whatever you determine that is. Best of luck!

 

[Ilivetogo]

Of course he doesn't want a divorce, why would he when he has it so good?
You are a single parent, with two little kids and one big one, eating your food and as you said, making a dent in your couch.

IMO, you ned to jettison the dead weight...cut your losses and move on. I personally wouldn't bother with counseling, but if you feel you need to be able to say you gave it everything you got, tell him either he goes with you to counseling and makes a 180 degree change or his out on his butt. The only acceptable answer to that is "yes dear". Anything else, he's out the door.

But that's just me. I don't suffer fools at all, let alone gladly.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Wow.

I'm sorry OP.

I wish you the best in whatever you decide.

.

 

[mrsklamc]

Just because he plays on the computer and goes to the track does not mean he's not depressed. Those are both very 'escapist' activities that don't take a lot of brainpower or emotional investment. I agree with lots of suggestions here- cancel cable, cancel internet, get a trial separation- but OP says she has never believed in divorce so I think in order to be able to look herself in the mirror and say she did everything she could to avoid it, a trial separation would be a good idea.

There are also people making some serious judgments about this guy based entirely on OP's side of the story. I'm not saying she's wrong, but there are always at least two sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

I know of a pastor who tells the story of a woman who came to him with a bruise on her wrist and demanded he call her husband in to talk to him about the abuse. He brought the couple in and the husband acknowledged that he caused the bruise on his wife's wrist- he had grabbed her wrist because the attached hand was holding a knife that she was trying to stab him with.

No matter how clear cut the evidence seems, there is always another side.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I agree with Bob about this. That takes away two of his time wasting activities. What's he going to do about it? You make the money and pay the bills.

Yep, Bob has it right. It will begin the process of healing or getting divorced, both of which need to happen.

If he turns the stuff back on, then kick his butt out the door.

 

[Tiger926]

I shouldn't be surprised at the responses, but I still am...

The responses on here prove that some of you have no clue about how debilitating depression is, especially since our society expects men to be strong and focused on supporting for their family. You put chemicals in there that tell you the opposite, and you get what the OP is describing - lazy, unfocused and unmotivated.

There are several of us who have said we have been there. And temporary can be 5 or 10 years...it doesn't mean 10 mins. Not only have I been there in a marriage, but teach depressed children as well, and the symtoms she describes are the same there as well. Escaping in substances or video games are very common, so saying that someone who can play a video game musn't be depressed because that takes energy, shows a total lack of understanding of the disease that depression is.

As some of us have said, we would have given our spouses support, and not just divorce. And, I'll say it again: if OP's hubby had cancer, I highly doubt she would just divorce him.

And, I'll say it again, if OP were a man, and her spouse was a woman, the responses on here would be totally different.

There is a double standard in society and it is alive and well on the DIS for sure.

Hopefully the OP doesn't take the advice of some of you and just kicks her hubby out. If some of us had done that, we would not have stuck around to see the people who now are with us today - people who got help and were allowed to heal. Does it take work each day? Yes it does, but in the OP's case, I don't see how she has helped her hubby besides enable him, which is common with depression as life must go on, dishes must be washed, kids to school and grass cut, but in all of that, should also come support for the spouse who is struggling.

OP is still showing confusion and guilt within her posts, so I think that she may one day regret just full on divorcing hubby, as she may be wondering if she did enough to help the situation? What healing has actually been done? Does this require that she do more than he? Sure it does, but based on the profile presented, her hubby has some serious issues. Based on that, there are some of us who are feeling that he needs more help than just being, "...kicked to the curb". Now, OP may not have energy for any of this, nor may have decided that it isn't worth it, and that is her choice to make, but based on what she has said, I still see doubts in her posts.

Of course this is all just my opinion, so I wish the OP well in her difficult work, Tiger

 

[jodifla]

I absolutely agree with the idea that there's a huge double standard here; the responses would be totally different if it was an unemployed wife.

I'm also struck that nobody seems to take wedding vows seriously anymore! It gets tough...you just leave (or throw the other person out). To me, this might be an option if you don't have kids, but once you have kids, that just nixes the whole idea of divorce to me unless there's some abuse/safety issue.

I actually do agree with a trial separation, as it might spur the husband to get the help he needs. Being unemployed for two years is an incredible blow to anyone, but particularly men. All that constant rejection can be just paralyzing.

Instead of couples counseling, I'd encourage my spouse to get individual counseling. I'd also make a list of all the things I did, vs. the things he did, and ask him to justify the discrepancy.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I shouldn't be surprised at the responses, but I still am...

The responses on here prove that some of you have no clue about how debilitating depression is, especially since our society expects men to be strong and focused on supporting for their family. You put chemicals in there that tell you the opposite, and you get what the OP is describing - lazy, unfocused and unmotivated.

There are several of us who have said we have been there. And temporary can be 5 or 10 years...it doesn't mean 10 mins. Not only have I been there in a marriage, but teach depressed children as well, and the symtoms she describes are the same there as well. Escaping in substances or video games are very common, so saying that someone who can play a video game musn't be depressed because that takes energy, shows a total lack of understanding of the disease that depression is.

As some of us have said, we would have given our spouses support, and not just divorce. And, I'll say it again: if OP's hubby had cancer, I highly doubt she would just divorce him.

And, I'll say it again, if OP were a man, and her spouse was a woman, the responses on here would be totally different.

There is a double standard in society and it is alive and well on the DIS for sure.

Hopefully the OP doesn't take the advice of some of you and just kicks her hubby out. If some of us had done that, we would not have stuck around to see the people who now are with us today - people who got help and were allowed to heal. Does it take work each day? Yes it does, but in the OP's case, I don't see how she has helped her hubby besides enable him, which is common with depression as life must go on, dishes must be washed, kids to school and grass cut, but in all of that, should also come support for the spouse who is struggling.

OP is still showing confusion and guilt within her posts, so I think that she may one day regret just full on divorcing hubby, as she may be wondering if she did enough to help the situation? What healing has actually been done? Does this require that she do more than he? Sure it does, but based on the profile presented, her hubby has some serious issues. Based on that, there are some of us who are feeling that he needs more help than just being, "...kicked to the curb". Now, OP may not have energy for any of this, nor may have decided that it isn't worth it, and that is her choice to make, but based on what she has said, I still see doubts in her posts.

Of course this is all just my opinion, so I wish the OP well in her difficult work, Tiger

Well, I don't agree with your opinion. We have depression, OCD, anxiety, and bipolar here. My MIL is schizophrenic.

Just because you have ANY of the above does not mean you sit there and enable someone to continue to do nothing.

And yes I am quite aware of the consquences of severe depression HOWEVER that does not mean you have to subject your family to it long term.

The person has to attempt help. What the OP described is more than depression, her dh is cruel to her. That should not be tolerated no matter if you are mildly depressed, bipolar, schizo, or severely depressed.

JMO

 

[Tiger926]

Well, I don't agree with your opinion. We have depression, OCD, anxiety, and bipolar here. My MIL is schizophrenic.

Just because you have ANY of the above does not mean you sit there and enable someone to continue to do nothing.

And yes I am quite aware of the consquences of severe depression HOWEVER that does not mean you have to subject your family to it long term.

The person has to attempt help. What the OP described is more than depression, her dh is cruel to her. That should not be tolerated no matter if you are mildly depressed, bipolar, schizo, or severely depressed.

JMO

You don't need to agree with my opinion at all.

I didn't say for her to enable it nor accept it just because her hubby is depressed. And sorry, but people who are very depressed need help from the rest of us with their attempts to get well. Just assuming that they are going to wake up one day and snap out of it to get that help, is not understanding depression at all. And with depression comes cruelty and anger...that is how men usually manifest the depression. If you loved someone enough to marry them, why not love them enough to help them get well? I see so much of kick him out on this thread, as most threads on the DIS, and I feel that is just as cruel as hubby's behaviour.

Divorce is a way for the daily depression struggles within the household to go away, but is it the best solution to help the person who is struggling in that depression? Especially with men who have lost their jobs. Men kill themselves over their jobs, so I'm not sure why you would assume that a man can just snap out of it and walk into a hospital or counselling office and ask for help?

OP didn't mention anything about other options besides divorce, and that is my concern. And again, if her hubby had cancer, I highly doubt she would kick him to the curb.

When it comes to depression, people don't seem to have any patience, nor a true understanding of it. It changes lives, and so yes, it requires more than just, see you in divorce court, IMHO.

I have already explained this multiple times in this thread. I am not seeing anything else besides divorce as an option from the OP. Before I considered divorce, I would ask myself if I had truly done it all, and exhausted all options for saving my marriage? Perhaps OP feels this isn't necessary, or has already done this, but I haven't seen it here.

I truly wish her well in the road ahead as it sounds like she has been leading a difficult life, Tiger

 

[okeydokey]

I shouldn't be surprised at the responses, but I still am...

The responses on here prove that some of you have no clue about how debilitating depression is, especially since our society expects men to be strong and focused on supporting for their family. You put chemicals in there that tell you the opposite, and you get what the OP is describing - lazy, unfocused and unmotivated.

There are several of us who have said we have been there. And temporary can be 5 or 10 years...it doesn't mean 10 mins. Not only have I been there in a marriage, but teach depressed children as well, and the symtoms she describes are the same there as well. Escaping in substances or video games are very common, so saying that someone who can play a video game musn't be depressed because that takes energy, shows a total lack of understanding of the disease that depression is.

As some of us have said, we would have given our spouses support, and not just divorce. And, I'll say it again: if OP's hubby had cancer, I highly doubt she would just divorce him.

And, I'll say it again, if OP were a man, and her spouse was a woman, the responses on here would be totally different.

There is a double standard in society and it is alive and well on the DIS for sure.

Hopefully the OP doesn't take the advice of some of you and just kicks her hubby out. If some of us had done that, we would not have stuck around to see the people who now are with us today - people who got help and were allowed to heal. Does it take work each day? Yes it does, but in the OP's case, I don't see how she has helped her hubby besides enable him, which is common with depression as life must go on, dishes must be washed, kids to school and grass cut, but in all of that, should also come support for the spouse who is struggling.

OP is still showing confusion and guilt within her posts, so I think that she may one day regret just full on divorcing hubby, as she may be wondering if she did enough to help the situation? What healing has actually been done? Does this require that she do more than he? Sure it does, but based on the profile presented, her hubby has some serious issues. Based on that, there are some of us who are feeling that he needs more help than just being, "...kicked to the curb". Now, OP may not have energy for any of this, nor may have decided that it isn't worth it, and that is her choice to make, but based on what she has said, I still see doubts in her posts.

Of course this is all just my opinion, so I wish the OP well in her difficult work, Tiger

If the OPs husband had cancer, they would probably treat it. If the husband is unwilling to treat his depression, or to do anything at all to change his situation, that is his choice. It is her choice if she sticks around for the next 40 years watching him do nothing, or to do what she needs to in order to take care of her children.

 

[Colleen27]

Thank you for reiterating that. To me that makes the difference. It's temporary. In OP's case (and in mine) it has been going on for YEARS. And I think that's where the breakdown comes. As someone else mentioned re the OP, he can find time to whatever he wants, but nothing else. Picking and choosing when to use his excuses. With a track record of years, it's hard (and I believe foolish) to believe it will ever change. Again, I'm very happy it worked out for your, your husband, your marriage and your family. Unfortunately not everyone gets that happy ending.

Well, that's why my original response was loaded with "if" and "just my experience" type disclaimers. I know that when things were their worst in my marriage, venting in an anonymous forum like this probably would have painted a very bleak picture that went on forever, because when I was upset about the situation at hand it was very easy to look back over the years and see every golf outing when there was something that needed done at the house, every late night playing Warcraft when I'd rather he get up early to help with the kids, and view it all as a pattern leading to where we were at. It is hard to remember, much less give credit, for the good times and good things about your spouse when your mind is in that place.

Now, that may or may not be the case for the OP; certainly there are men that are just lazy and unmotivated by nature, and only the OP knows which is true of her husband. But I'm reading her as reluctant to take the final step of divorce, and several of us are just pointing out other angles that might help her either fix her marriage or move on at peace with the knowledge that she's done everything she can.

 

[Tiger926]

If the OPs husband had cancer, they would probably treat it. If the husband is unwilling to treat his depression, or to do anything at all to change his situation, that is his choice. It is her choice if she sticks around for the next 40 years watching him do nothing, or to do what she needs to in order to take care of her children.

Not talking about the treatment of cancer. I'm talking about the immense work that comes with supporting and caring for your spouse through days of depression, anger, horrible treatments, medical testing, etc. I have watched several family members lovingly nurse spouses through terminal cancer, despite the patients becaming hostile, angry and depressed, and they did not divorce their spouses.

My point is that many people don't feel depression is an illness, as evidenced on this thread. If depressed people were just able to snap out of it and get help, there wouldn't be suicide, failed marriages, collapse of companies, etc.

OP's title was, "I think I want a divorce." She isn't sure, and so with that, she asked for advice. My concern is that most of the advice is to just kick hubby out and get divorced. Venting in this type of forum seems to get a lot of negative responses in regards to the marriage itself. For me, this shows a lack of respect for marriage, as well as compassion for her spouse who is mentally struggling, but it is not my decision to make. So, just like everyone else on here who has given their opinion, I gave mine, as someone who has experienced depression within a marriage.

We all make choices, and come to those choices differently, so I wish OP strength and clarity in going what is best in her situation.

Tiger

 

[Jennasis]

If he's depressed then he has to WANT to get better. He has to WANT the change. He has to WANT the help and ACCEPT the help. Like an alcoholic. OP can't force him to get help or make him better.

 

[Tiger926]

If he's depressed then he has to WANT to get better. He has to WANT the change. He has to WANT the help and ACCEPT the help. Like an alcoholic. OP can't force him to get help or make him better.

Sure, but OP still hasn't mentioned anything about help. Has she offered to help her hubby with going to the doctor, active job searches, marital counselling, etc.? Maybe she hasn't because she doesn't want to, and that is fine, and in that case then, divorce would seem to be the only option for her.

Help comes in many forms, and sometimes emotional help in the form of support, compassion and caring does wonders to assist difficult situations like this.

They both seem lost, and when you are lost, your mind, body and soul are exhausted, and so offering help and accepting the help isn't so easy...

Tiger

 

[The Mystery Machine]

You don't need to agree with my opinion at all.

I didn't say for her to enable it nor accept it just because her hubby is depressed. And sorry, but people who are very depressed need help from the rest of us with their attempts to get well. Just assuming that they are going to wake up one day and snap out of it to get that help, is not understanding depression at all. And with depression comes cruelty and anger...that is how men usually manifest the depression. If you loved someone enough to marry them, why not love them enough to help them get well? I see so much of kick him out on this thread, as most threads on the DIS, and I feel that is just as cruel as hubby's behaviour.

Divorce is a way for the daily depression struggles within the household to go away, but is it the best solution to help the person who is struggling in that depression? Especially with men who have lost their jobs. Men kill themselves over their jobs, so I'm not sure why you would assume that a man can just snap out of it and walk into a hospital or counselling office and ask for help?

OP didn't mention anything about other options besides divorce, and that is my concern. And again, if her hubby had cancer, I highly doubt she would kick him to the curb.

When it comes to depression, people don't seem to have any patience, nor a true understanding of it. It changes lives, and so yes, it requires more than just, see you in divorce court, IMHO.

I have already explained this multiple times in this thread. I am not seeing anything else besides divorce as an option from the OP. Before I considered divorce, I would ask myself if I had truly done it all, and exhausted all options for saving my marriage? Perhaps OP feels this isn't necessary, or has already done this, but I haven't seen it here.

I truly wish her well in the road ahead as it sounds like she has been leading a difficult life, Tiger

Ok, now you are not reading posts. I said I clearly understand depression and it's consquences.

It does not mean you have to live with cruelty.

 

[cm8]

If he's depressed then he has to WANT to get better. He has to WANT the change. He has to WANT the help and ACCEPT the help. Like an alcoholic. OP can't force him to get help or make him better.

Sure, but OP still hasn't mentioned anything about help. Has she offered to help her hubby with going to the doctor, active job searches, marital counselling, etc.? Maybe she hasn't because she doesn't want to, and that is fine, and in that case then, divorce would seem to be the only option for her.

Help comes in many forms, and sometimes emotional help in the form of support, compassion and caring does wonders to assist difficult situations like this.

They both seem lost, and when you are lost, your mind, body and soul are exhausted, and so offering help and accepting the help isn't so easy...

Tiger

She stated she signed them up for counseling and he went for 2 sessions and stopped He is grown, you can't make adults do anything they don't want to. She led the horse, he didn't want a sip.

 

[Tiger926]

She stated she signed them up for counseling and he went for 2 sessions and stopped He is a grown, you can't make adults do anything they don't want to. She led the horse, he didn't want a sip.

I saw that, and counselling really is difficult for most men, but 2 sessions really isn't enough to base a whole divorce on it, IMHO. As I and others have suggested, there are other ways to help, besides counselling.

Ok, now you are not reading posts. I said I clearly understand depression and it's consquences.

It does not mean you have to live with cruelty.

No, I can read and comprehend all posts.

Based on some of your statements, I don't feel you truly understand it, but that is my opinion based on the experiences I went through. You have had different experiences, and that is ok.

As for cruelty, has every right to stand up for herself and demand better treatment. Absolutely! It's a two way street though as to some of us, it's cruel to walk away from a marriage without much attempt to save it. To some of us, it's cruel to walk away from someone who is ill.

We don't know if this pertains to OP, as she mentioned an initial counselling session, and that is all. She is confused about whether divorces is the right solution to this, or else she wouldn't have posted as she did.

Tiger

 

[Disney Doll]

Speak to a lawyer.
Speak to a counselor.
Speak to a finanacial planner.
Get your information and your ducks in a row before you do anything.

Give him one last shot at fixing himself and see if he takes it. Take the advice of the PP who said that she became actively involved in her DH's situation.

You need to tell him the things he needs to do to save his marriage:
~Go to an MD and get medication for his depression
~Go to a counselor on a regular basis
~Job search daily and provide you with proof of 5 jobs that eh applied for
~Complete this list of chores/responsibilities (including household and childcare) daily since he is home and you are working
~Meet with you every 2 weeks to discuss how the new plan of action is working
~Create an end date. He has 6 months to show progress and imporvement (psych meds can sometimes take a couple of months to really "kick in")

And then try your best to be supportive of his efforts, if he makes any.

This will accomplish several things. It will give him tasks and goals upon which to focus. You will be having regular discussions so that the two of you will now exactly where the relationship stands. That way, neither of you will be blind-sided at the end of the 6 month period. You will be secure ion the feeling that you did everything you could to save the marriage.

At the end of the 6 month period, you re-evaluate. If things are the same, you start divorce proceedings. If things have imporved, you re-evaluate your goals, his goals, your goals as a couple & family.

This plan also buys you some time to prepare yourself for the possibility of being divorced.
Start saving money somehow,and ideally having it be insomeone else's name (parent, sibling, trusted friend).

I have a pretty good idea of how I think it will end up, but you can say you tried.

Be aware that you might seriously end up paying alimony for a while, and if we women want equality, then it has to go both ways.

Make this decision very carefully, because it will have huge financial and emotional impact on your family.