I think Disney should start enforcing end times on fastpasses

[gojoe]

Okay, I have found a post from Knox, The Canadian Guy, Moderator, from one of our many other Fastpass discussions and I think it gives a pretty good explanation as to the effects of late fastpass return:

(Quote)I read a very interesting internet article musing on the Fastpass system that analyzed how it works from someone with a background in economics and that whole "supply-demand" thing... he actually looked at this all from an scientific perspective... He used big words and talked about the 'supply-curve' and such. Of course I can't FIND it now that I need it.

In the article, he indicated that something like fifty percent of all fastpasses were used within their listed time window. Thirty percent were used "late" and twenty percent were never used at all. If what's being reported here is true, that I suspect those percentages might have shifted.

He further explained that using a Fastpass late really wouldn't affect the system because if you didn't use your FP during the alloted 1 hour window, then that meant that at least one rider from the standby or fastpass line (or depending on the size of your party - BOTH) got to ride "sooner" than they would have, had you been there to take your spot. And then everyone in line BEHIND them got to ride sooner too.

It's a zero sum game. It's worth noting that they don't send around an empty ride vehicle just because you didn't show up.(You're not royalty you know.. only Cinderella gets that treatment.)

So.. regardless if you show up or not, the ride still runs at full capacity.

Therefore.... for example, if your family of five wasn't there between 11:05am and 12:05pm .. then there are five people who FOR SURE got to ride sooner than you did.. and an untold number of people who were behind them in line who ALSO got to ride sooner than they would have otherwise... up til the moment you arrive to redeem your FP.

Another way to think of it is this .. Think of the queues like a clock... If you aren't there to fill your spot, the clock starts running fast. We don't perceive it as running fast because we don't see the numbers to tell us that "X" number of FP holders SHOULD have redeemed their rides by now but haven't. When a FP is used late, the clock starts to correct itself.

To the untrained eye standing impatiently in the stand-by line -- it might appear that those darned late-arriving FP users have delayed their riding... when in reality the standby folks would have likely ended up on the ride at the exact same time had the people used their FP's within the alloted window -- they just would have PERCEIVED it differently.

When you followed the math to its logical conclusion -- the Fastpass system doesn't really break down unless every FP holder on a given day wants to use their FP's at the exact same 15 minute window at the exact same attraction.

Perhaps that has been happening around meal times, parades and park closings?

Disney had made no secret of their liberal policy on return times.. so much much so that I think that the change to a firm return time policy might be very problematic for them in the near term.

Thanks.

Knox (End Quote)

I think I will print this to read in line when 30 Brazilian tourist with expired Fast Passes get in line and my 30 min. wait time just shot up to 60.

 

[hookedonears]

Sorry, but you are simply wrong and completely misinformed. I just couldn't resist, I must, must post my favorite quote from my favorite fastpass thread ever. . . .

Originally Posted by Diser, Dawgdad
WOW! This just always seems to rear it's ugly head. Now we have people wanting the "rules" enforced. Where do I start??? I always try to respond to these posts because I do feel like I have some worthwhile info that comes from actual Disney management (see below). First of all, if you don't believe you should use the FP's past the time, then don't. The fact is this: If I choose to not ride during the 2 hour window, it only means that someone else will fill my magical spot on the ride (someone from the standby line). If I did enter during the 2 hr time, that same person (theoretically) will ride AFTER me. You see, when I use my FP does not affect 1)the number of people in the park, or 2)the number of people who choose to ride a certain ride. This is not a rationalization, it is just basic theme park logistics. FP's do not expire (on that day, of course) and I know that for a fact.

My cousin, Scott Bowden works in Anaheim as a Senior Vice President in the Department of Planning, Revenue Management and Strategic Pricing (how would you like that on your business card?) We have spoken so many times on this subject that many times when I call him, the first thing he says is "Wassup, Fastpasses don't expire."

Remember, FP's are not intended to move you to the front of the line, they are to allow you to spend your waiting time somewhere else (like buying food or merchandise). Disney is a business and people can not spend their money in line. FP is a win-win idea that reduces your standing in line time. When you use it does not affect the flow of the ride or the dynamics of the wait for ANYONE else. Now, there is one more thing. When we adopted our child from China 2 years ago, one of the other fathers in our travel group works for the company in Buffalo that (among other things) worked with Disney on the design and implementation of the fastpass. Trust me when I say that the idea was not to reduce your wait time, but to reduce your "non-buying" time in the parks. It is not an accident that the Fastpass does not specifically prohibit late arrivals. In the original patent for the fastpass (and machine), there is a specific statement that details this "late" use. It is not only OK, it has zero bearing on the flow of the park or the wait times for anyone. Yes, you could argue that if everyone held their fastpass for 1 hour then flooded the ride, there may be some fluctuations in wait times, but that is simply not realistic. Additionally, if everyone did that, many more standby riders than normal would get to ride earlier. Remember, how or when you use your FP does not affect the number of people in the park or how many people ride the ride.

Fastpasses DO NOT expire. If a castmember tells you otherwise, politely ask them to speak with a supervisor - you are not asking for a favor, you are asking for something that is specifically allowed under the fastpass.

Fastpasses DO NOT expire. [End Quote]


Also, in case I haven't posted enough fastpass jargin for ya'll yet, I also have verbage from the original Fastpass patent if anyone wants me to post it.

I believe someone here needs to work on their people skills. One reason they do not have a specific (Don't be late statement) on the FP ticket is because people would be racing across parks, knocking over children and grandmothers to make their return time. People may be standing in a line waiting to give their ticket to the FP attendants and the time lapse. There would be disappointment, unhappiness and consternation, and Disney does not want that. They do, however want you to follow the rules, do what you're suppose to do, and the CM's should be given the flexibility to make decisions of turning away late FP tickets within reason and useing specific guidelines.

 

[hookedonears]

That is a curiosity, no way around it. On the back it says "Please enter the FASTPASS attraction between the times front" not you MUST enter during those times, but even so I agree it's curious why the FPs don't just flat out say "come back after xx:xx".

I can only conclude that WDW does not wish to advertise this policy. They definitely HAVE the poilicy....they just don't want to advertise it.

Why? Why doesn't WDW advertise the policy of allowing late FPs?

That is the enigma facing the pro-late FP crowd (like me).

I posted this on another response, but I really don't know, but one reason they do not have a specific (Don't be late statement) on the ticket is because people would be racing across parks, knocking over children and grandmothers to make their return time. People may be standing in a line waiting to give their ticket to the FP attendants and the time lapse. There would be disappointment, unhappiness and consternation, and Disney does not want that. They do, however want you to follow the rules, do what they're suppose to do, and the CM's should be given the flexibility to make decisions of turning away late FP tickets within reason and useing guidelines.

 

[Reddog1134]

I think I will print this to read in line when 30 Brazilian tourist with expired Fast Passes get in line and my 30 min. wait time just shot up to 60.

That must be the worst hourly capacity of any ride ever.

 

[fan1080]

I posted this on another response, but I really don't know, but one reason they do not have a specific (Don't be late statement) on the ticket is because people would be racing across parks, knocking over children and grandmothers to make their return time. People may be standing in a line waiting to give their ticket to the FP attendants and the time lapse. There would be disappointment, unhappiness and consternation, and Disney does not want that. They do, however want you to follow the rules, do what they're suppose to do, and the CM's should be given the flexibility to make decisions of turning away late FP tickets within reason and useing guidelines.

I believe someone here needs to work on their people skills. One reason they do not have a specific (Don't be late statement) on the FP ticket is because people would be racing across parks, knocking over children and grandmothers to make their return time. People may be standing in a line waiting to give their ticket to the FP attendants and the time lapse. There would be disappointment, unhappiness and consternation, and Disney does not want that. They do, however want you to follow the rules, do what you're suppose to do, and the CM's should be given the flexibility to make decisions of turning away late FP tickets within reason and useing specific guidelines.

Woah, Is there an echo in here......

I think I will print this to read in line when 30 Brazilian tourist with expired Fast Passes get in line and my 30 min. wait time just shot up to 60.

A large group entering the FP line will have the exact same effect on the line if they enter during the one hour window or after.

 

[Reddog1134]

They do, however want you to follow the rules, do what they're suppose to do, and the CM's should be given the flexibility to make decisions of turning away late FP tickets within reason and useing guidelines.

What guidelines would they be?

 

[hookedonears]

What guidelines would they be?

Don't know. What ever I said would get criticism one way or another.

 

[Reddog1134]

I said something similar to this in another thread.

If they gave out 500 FPs over the course of the day and all 500 people returned to the FP line at the same late time, then "YES" it would probably have an impact on the line. But what are the chances of this really happening? It's very unlikely. How does Disney prevent this from happening? They print a 1 hour time frame on the ticket. Enough people return during the printed time so that it doesn't have a significant impact on the published wait time when others return late.

 

[fan1080]

Don't know. What ever I said would get criticism one way or another.

Disney's current guidelines are working fine, or they would make adjustments.

 

[DisFam95]

I would have been THRILLED to wait 30 min for TSM with a fastpass.

 

[rie'smom]

I think I will print this to read in line when 30 Brazilian tourist with expired Fast Passes get in line and my 30 min. wait time just shot up to 60.

If you see 30 people getting in line, you have a choice. Go do something else or wait in line. Your fast pass will still be good. That's one of the good things about not having to get in line right when your fast pass time is due.

 

[disneymom0104]

If you see 30 people getting in line, you have a choice. Go do something else or wait in line. Your fast pass will still be good. That's one of the good things about not having to get in line right when your fast pass time is due.

Exactly. And those 30 people getting in line at one time may not actually be late. You would not know- they do not have to show you their ticket. And if they were actually late, there could very well be 30 people due that hour that are not returning, or will return later, thus making it a completely zero sum. Maybe 15 of the 30 due that hour decide to return later. Same cycle over again. 15 of them never use the ticket they took in the morning- so even 45 people arriving late within the last hour don't make a difference to the stand by line, because that line has been operating at least 45 people ahead for the entire day, but likely more due to all the people that never return.

 

[damo]

When people use their fastpasses later it means that standby line went a little faster.You are actually just letting people ride ahead of you when you return late. To keep the fastpass line at a reasonable length at all times, the CMs just need to adjust the number of people from the lines that they are letting in. It really shouldn't be an issue if the CMs are doing their jobs.

If everyone kept their appointment time, the CMs wouldn't have to do much adjusting. If people return after their appointment time, the CMs just need to move that line a little more quickly. It shouldn't be an issue unless there are ride breakdowns.

 

[photo_chick]

What an awful analogy. Plenty of people have provided in depth explanations of why 200 people showing up late while you are in line does NOT make your wait longer. If they had shown up two hours earlier, YOU'RE STILL WAITING THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF TIME! Some people just refuse to think and understand.

Wow.. what an awful attitude. It's an analogy that's rooted in common courtesy and basic logic. I can see where it's lost on you.

There is no way to prove the effect enforcing or not enforcing the time window has on the lines. Blustering about it only makes you look silly.

 

[PrincessTiffany]

Wow.. what an awful attitude. It's an analogy that's rooted in common courtesy and basic logic. I can see where it's lost on you.

There is no way to prove the effect enforcing or not enforcing the time window has on the lines. Blustering about it only makes you look silly.

Post #167 of this thread explains it pretty well.

 

[Rip]

What guidelines would they be?

The guidelines that CMs are specifically trained in, such as allowing people to use their fastpasses after the window printed on them?

 

[Rip]

Wow.. what an awful attitude. It's an analogy that's rooted in common courtesy and basic logic. I can see where it's lost on you.

There is no way to prove the effect enforcing or not enforcing the time window has on the lines. Blustering about it only makes you look silly.

Actually, Disney has done its research and does know the effect it has.

 

[neoavatara]

Disney studies these things...I bet you they have multiple studies from multiple years done my engineers and mathematicians evaluating this stuff.

First and foremost: Disney's goal is TO MAKE MONEY. Not necessarily to save you time. However, the more time you spend in line not spending money is money they have lost. They would much rather you be doing something else. So it is in their direct best interest to have you not waste time in line.

Frankly, with the crowds you have, I just don't see the FP return issue as a major issue at all. First, I bet you the vast majority of people don't realize you can return outside your window, so they actually do that. The small percentage left over that come after the period are probably not significant enough to vary the time for the remainder of people by more than a few minutes.

So all this discussion basically...is about five minutes in line.

For the effort it would take Disney to adhere to strict time limits...five minutes is not worth their time. Period. End of story.

 

[photo_chick]

The OP had it right.

 

[KSDisneyDad]

The OP had it right.

Then write Disney and let them know as they obviously disagree.