I think Disney should start enforcing end times on fastpasses

[MikeandReneePlus5]

It's because WDW, like any business, has to offer good customer service. Can you imagine the delays and complaints when FP return person after FP return person starts with "but by MY watch I AM on time...your watch is 5 minutes too fast" or "But Little Johnny accidentally had milk and then puked all over his shirt so we had to go buy him a new one and we ran back here and tried to be here on time" or "We would have been on time but the standby wait time for Splash Mtn said 40 minutes but then turned out to be 60, so it is WDW's own fault that I'm late so you can't hold it against me and need to let me in"? And this is entirely different than stating no early arrivals, because they haven't 'voided' your benefit of using your FP, just made you wait a bit longer to use it. If they enforce the end time - they would be taking away a huge perk from the customer, and that customer is going to fight tooth and nail to keep it.

I, too, like going in to FP's late...but it is extremely OBVIOUS to me why Disney doesn't specify it one way or the other on the pass itself. It would leave the door way too open for customer service nightmares.

You are saying they don't specify you can come back late in an effort to avoid customer service problems from people who do come back late?

That makes no sense to me. But I bet 60% of the time, it works every time.

 

[cigar95]

Why not say "late arrivals happily accepted"?

At last, a question that's easily answered.

The system works best when *most* of the users come back in a timely manner. Which they presently do.

Without an "encouraged" return window, the actual returns might spread out enough that a change on return times would be needed, and we would end up with a return window of four hours that *would* be enforced.

 

[rie'smom]

Let me put it another way. On Space mountain, if there are 800 people in the stand by line and 200 in the FP line and 50 of those came in after there FP time expired, that means there are 50 people standing in front of me that shouldn't be. Over the course of an entire day, considering all of the other FP attractions that I would have used, quite a bit of my time has been taken standing behind people that shouldn't be there, and time that I could be enjoying other attractions.

You are not taking into account the 50+ people who notice they've gone past their return time and throw away the FPs thinking they cannot use them.

Disney says it's ok so I'll continue to arrive past the return time. You can choose to return right on time. We're both following Disney rules.

 

[brymolmom]

You are saying they don't specify you can come back late in an effort to avoid customer service problems from people who do come back late?

That makes no sense to me. But I bet 60% of the time, it works every time.

Actually, what I am really saying is that there are a lot of very valid reasons why someone would need to or inadvertently return past the return time or at least question a CM telling them that it is too late (as in the example with the watches showing two different times) and that if they started enforcing it, it would have to be across the board for everyone and the CM's would then be put into a very difficult position of having to say 'no entry' to those who do, indeed, have valid excuses. THAT is poor customer service. But it would also be poor service to allow some late entry and others not. It is a lose/lose customer service-wise, that is why I think they are doing the right thing business-wise by not specifying one way or the other.

 

[PrincessTiffany]

Because that's what's printed on your FP. The FP doesn't say come back between 1:30 and when ever you feel like it.

Sorry, but you are simply wrong and completely misinformed. I just couldn't resist, I must, must post my favorite quote from my favorite fastpass thread ever. . . .

Originally Posted by Diser, Dawgdad
WOW! This just always seems to rear it's ugly head. Now we have people wanting the "rules" enforced. Where do I start??? I always try to respond to these posts because I do feel like I have some worthwhile info that comes from actual Disney management (see below). First of all, if you don't believe you should use the FP's past the time, then don't. The fact is this: If I choose to not ride during the 2 hour window, it only means that someone else will fill my magical spot on the ride (someone from the standby line). If I did enter during the 2 hr time, that same person (theoretically) will ride AFTER me. You see, when I use my FP does not affect 1)the number of people in the park, or 2)the number of people who choose to ride a certain ride. This is not a rationalization, it is just basic theme park logistics. FP's do not expire (on that day, of course) and I know that for a fact.

My cousin, Scott Bowden works in Anaheim as a Senior Vice President in the Department of Planning, Revenue Management and Strategic Pricing (how would you like that on your business card?) We have spoken so many times on this subject that many times when I call him, the first thing he says is "Wassup, Fastpasses don't expire."

Remember, FP's are not intended to move you to the front of the line, they are to allow you to spend your waiting time somewhere else (like buying food or merchandise). Disney is a business and people can not spend their money in line. FP is a win-win idea that reduces your standing in line time. When you use it does not affect the flow of the ride or the dynamics of the wait for ANYONE else. Now, there is one more thing. When we adopted our child from China 2 years ago, one of the other fathers in our travel group works for the company in Buffalo that (among other things) worked with Disney on the design and implementation of the fastpass. Trust me when I say that the idea was not to reduce your wait time, but to reduce your "non-buying" time in the parks. It is not an accident that the Fastpass does not specifically prohibit late arrivals. In the original patent for the fastpass (and machine), there is a specific statement that details this "late" use. It is not only OK, it has zero bearing on the flow of the park or the wait times for anyone. Yes, you could argue that if everyone held their fastpass for 1 hour then flooded the ride, there may be some fluctuations in wait times, but that is simply not realistic. Additionally, if everyone did that, many more standby riders than normal would get to ride earlier. Remember, how or when you use your FP does not affect the number of people in the park or how many people ride the ride.

Fastpasses DO NOT expire. If a castmember tells you otherwise, politely ask them to speak with a supervisor - you are not asking for a favor, you are asking for something that is specifically allowed under the fastpass.

Fastpasses DO NOT expire. [End Quote]


Also, in case I haven't posted enough fastpass jargin for ya'll yet, I also have verbage from the original Fastpass patent if anyone wants me to post it.

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

At last, a question that's easily answered.

The system works best when *most* of the users come back in a timely manner. Which they presently do.

Without an "encouraged" return window, the actual returns might spread out enough that a change on return times would be needed, and we would end up with a return window of four hours that *would* be enforced.

yes...I mused my way to a similar conclusion...system works best when most come back timely....that must be the case

which means people who complain that everyone should come back timely are helping (if anyone listens to them). SO from now on...if you are a pro-late FPer..when someone argues people should return in their one hour window you should SUPPORT that argument!

 

[PrincessTiffany]

Because that's what's printed on your FP. The FP doesn't say come back between 1:30 and when ever you feel like it.

Okay, I have found a post from Knox, The Canadian Guy, Moderator, from one of our many other Fastpass discussions and I think it gives a pretty good explanation as to the effects of late fastpass return:

(Quote)I read a very interesting internet article musing on the Fastpass system that analyzed how it works from someone with a background in economics and that whole "supply-demand" thing... he actually looked at this all from an scientific perspective... He used big words and talked about the 'supply-curve' and such. Of course I can't FIND it now that I need it.

In the article, he indicated that something like fifty percent of all fastpasses were used within their listed time window. Thirty percent were used "late" and twenty percent were never used at all. If what's being reported here is true, that I suspect those percentages might have shifted.

He further explained that using a Fastpass late really wouldn't affect the system because if you didn't use your FP during the alloted 1 hour window, then that meant that at least one rider from the standby or fastpass line (or depending on the size of your party - BOTH) got to ride "sooner" than they would have, had you been there to take your spot. And then everyone in line BEHIND them got to ride sooner too.

It's a zero sum game. It's worth noting that they don't send around an empty ride vehicle just because you didn't show up.(You're not royalty you know.. only Cinderella gets that treatment.)

So.. regardless if you show up or not, the ride still runs at full capacity.

Therefore.... for example, if your family of five wasn't there between 11:05am and 12:05pm .. then there are five people who FOR SURE got to ride sooner than you did.. and an untold number of people who were behind them in line who ALSO got to ride sooner than they would have otherwise... up til the moment you arrive to redeem your FP.

Another way to think of it is this .. Think of the queues like a clock... If you aren't there to fill your spot, the clock starts running fast. We don't perceive it as running fast because we don't see the numbers to tell us that "X" number of FP holders SHOULD have redeemed their rides by now but haven't. When a FP is used late, the clock starts to correct itself.

To the untrained eye standing impatiently in the stand-by line -- it might appear that those darned late-arriving FP users have delayed their riding... when in reality the standby folks would have likely ended up on the ride at the exact same time had the people used their FP's within the alloted window -- they just would have PERCEIVED it differently.

When you followed the math to its logical conclusion -- the Fastpass system doesn't really break down unless every FP holder on a given day wants to use their FP's at the exact same 15 minute window at the exact same attraction.

Perhaps that has been happening around meal times, parades and park closings?

Disney had made no secret of their liberal policy on return times.. so much much so that I think that the change to a firm return time policy might be very problematic for them in the near term.

Thanks.

Knox (End Quote)

 

[bumbershoot]

Let me put it another way. On Space mountain, if there are 800 people in the stand by line and 200 in the FP line and 50 of those came in after there FP time expired, that means there are 50 people standing in front of me that shouldn't be. Over the course of an entire day, considering all of the other FP attractions that I would have used, quite a bit of my time has been taken standing behind people that shouldn't be there, and time that I could be enjoying other attractions.

Those people, if they had used the FPs within the window, would have still been in front of you. You just wouldn't have SEEN them. But the line you entered would have been a bit longer, because of the people there on time throughout the day that you aren't aware of.

 

[cigar95]

which means people who complain that everyone should come back timely are helping (if anyone listens to them). SO from now on...if you are a pro-late FPer..when someone argues people should return in their one hour window you should SUPPORT that argument!

Well, actually, . . . no.

For now, the system is working just fine. So whatever the fraction of those who return after their window is, it's presently small enough that we have no need to try to decrease it. Unless and until the fraction of post-window returners becomes substantially larger than it is now, the response would be "as you were."

The thing that will continue to make the system work is that a large number of people want to get on these rides as soon as they can - they are, after all, popular, which is why they have FP in the first place. So if their window opens at 11:15, a good fraction of the guests will be using their passes by 11:25.

OK, one might ask - if that's so, then why not remove the return time altogether? Well, now we're a bit into the human psychology of the whole thing. There will be another sector that needs the "nudging" of the return window to make them more likely to return promptly.

The simplest aspect of all of this is that things as presently configured are working well.

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

Well, actually, . . . no.

For now, the system is working just fine. So whatever the fraction of those who return after their window is, it's presently small enough that we have no need to try to decrease it. Unless and until the fraction of post-window returners becomes substantially larger than it is now, the response would be "as you were."

The thing that will continue to make the system work is that a large number of people want to get on these rides as soon as they can - they are, after all, popular, which is why they have FP in the first place. So if their window opens at 11:15, a good fraction of the guests will be using their passes by 11:25.

OK, one might ask - if that's so, then why not remove the return time altogether? Well, now we're a bit into the human psychology of the whole thing. There will be another sector that needs the "nudging" of the return window to make them more likely to return promptly.

The simplest aspect of all of this is that things as presently configured are working well.

ok, yep, I agree.

As you were.

that's the best approach.

(and we certainy shouldn't be advocating that more people come back late)

I am going to start keeping that tip to myself. Just like I always tell people the best place to see the MK Fireworks is Tomorrowland.

 

[cigar95]

(and we certainy shouldn't be advocating that more people come back late)

That cat may be gradually slipping out of the bag. Let's hope it doesn't slip out so far as to require action.

I agree that not advocating *more* post-window returns may indeed be a smart approach.

 

[k^2]

OK, one might ask - if that's so, then why not remove the return time altogether? Well, now we're a bit into the human psychology of the whole thing. There will be another sector that needs the "nudging" of the return window to make them more likely to return promptly.

The simplest aspect of all of this is that things as presently configured are working well.

It seems to me... if it's not Baroque, don't fix it! but seriously, most people come back in their window, which is good for Disney as it keeps traffic fairly constant, and they don't get complaints from people who miss their window and weren't let in. Those of us "in the know" I think are pretty few and far between

 

[tinkerbellfriend]

I understand people's frustration with fastpasses and why return times should be enforced. There is nothing worse than being in the standby line and watching others get ahead of you but I personally love and appreciate the fact that Disney does not enforce it. We all pay big bucks to visit Disney and we all know we do lots of walking and especially in the summer, it can be very exhausting. By not enforcing the return time, that gives everyone a little bit of magic so you can enjoy the park and not have to rush back over to that ride. To get from one side of the park to the other side can take a lot of time. I really think fastpasses are one of Disney's little joys and it makes our vacations so much more wonderful. Disney would not be the same without it...at least for our family. I know others don't use it and that is fine if that works for them.

 

[YodaGirl]

I understand people's frustration with fastpasses and why return times should be enforced. There is nothing worse than being in the standby line and watching others get ahead of you but I personally love and appreciate the fact that Disney does not enforce it. We all pay big bucks to visit Disney and we all know we do lots of walking and especially in the summer, it can be very exhausting. By not enforcing the return time, that gives everyone a little bit of magic so you can enjoy the park and not have to rush back over to that ride. To get from one side of the park to the other side can take a lot of time. I really think fastpasses are one of Disney's little joys and it makes our vacations so much more wonderful. Disney would not be the same without it...at least for our family. I know others don't use it and that is fine if that works for them.

I think that's where one of the major issues lie. The problem with that is perception. The guest perceives that the FP user is getting ahead of them.

In reality, the FP user was already in a virtual line. The FP just guaranteed his/her spot in line while (s)he did other things.

Basically, the person was already ahead of the standby guest.

 

[TerrytownGrl]

I regret starting this thread and wish it would die.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I got a chuckle out of your revised post!

 

[Robo]

I understand people's frustration with fastpasses and why return times should be enforced. There is nothing worse than being in the standby line and watching others get ahead of you...

That would happen exactly the same way if they DID enforce the one-hour window.

The point of the FP is that guests who choose them will be able to come back later and get to board ahead of those in the standby line.

Very few guests use their FP's outside the one-hour window, anyway.
Most want to ride the FP attraction ASAP, and many will wait at the FP Return door near the earliest point of the Return Time window until the very second that the CM will admit them.
At that point, those FP guests will pass-by the guests waiting in the Standby Line and board the attraction.

How else could FP work?

 

[KSDisneyDad]

That would happen exactly the same way if they DID enforce the one-hour window.

The point of the FP is that guests who choose them will be able to come back later and get to board ahead of those in the standby line.

Very few guests use their FP's outside the one-hour window, anyway.
Most want to ride the FP attraction ASAP, and many will wait at the FP Return door near the earliest point of the Return Time window until the very second that the CM will admit them. At that point, those FP guests will pass-by the guests waiting in the Standby Line and board the attraction.

How else could FP work?

And the bolded is a topic for another thread altogether! We found this quite frustrating at times as we had a valid FP for the current time, but couldn't even reach the front of the queue as it was being blocked by rude guests waiting for their FP start time.

 

[brerrabbit]

This really boils down to logistics and simple math. Look at it this way, a ride can handle say 500 riders per hour (this is all hypothetical numbers) and the park is open from 9 am till 9 pm or 12 hours. All things being equal that means ride capacity for tha day is 6,000 people. So the decision is made based on some linear programming model to allow 3,000 fast passes for the day and by default hope for 3,000 standby riders in a day. The 3,000 FP's are distributed eqaully over the day allowing 250 riders per hour. Now if everyone uses their FP in their 1 hour window then the wait time for the ride given that the stand by que remains relatively the same length for the entire day will mean the stand by wait time will remain constant throughout the day. If late returns start to pile up then the early stand by que riders are advantaged while the later stand by que riders are disadvantaged because of the late arriving FP holders. So rather than whine about a policy that Disney is monitoring and saying that late arriving FP's users are okay, just use this to your advantage. Hit the park early ride as much as you can as fast as you can in the standby ques and maybe an hour into the day get a FP. Then continue your standby oddessy till things slow down and if the first FP time has arrived get another one since you can because ride time for the first FP has passed. Then start using FP's where you can to decrease wait times while still searching for opportunities in stand by ques.

Obviously some of these rules vary for the most demanded rides and the FP will have to be gotten earlier. What we have found is if we are at rope drop at DS we can go straight to RnRC stand by, hit ToT stand bye and get to TSM and get a FP for about 4:00. Take some time to hit other rides stand bye and in 2 hours get a FP for something else.

Instead of complaining about the FP people flashing by you, use the system to your advantage because believe it or not your knowledge of the system from your participation on this board surpasses what 80% of the people going to WDW knows.

Knowledge is power!! Use it!!

 

[KSDisneyDad]

This really boils down to logistics and simple math. Look at it this way, a ride can handle say 500 riders per hour (this is all hypothetical numbers) and the park is open from 9 am till 9 pm or 12 hours. All things being equal that means ride capacity for tha day is 6,000 people. So the decision is made based on some linear programming model to allow 3,000 fast passes for the day and by default hope for 3,000 standby riders in a day. The 3,000 FP's are distributed eqaully over the day allowing 250 riders per hour. Now if everyone uses their FP in their 1 hour window then the wait time for the ride given that the stand by que remains relatively the same length for the entire day will mean the stand by wait time will remain constant throughout the day. If late returns start to pile up then the early stand by que riders are advantaged while the later stand by que riders are disadvantaged because of the late arriving FP holders. So rather than whine about a policy that Disney is monitoring and saying that late arriving FP's users are okay, just use this to your advantage. Hit the park early ride as much as you can as fast as you can in the standby ques and maybe an hour into the day get a FP. Then continue your standby oddessy till things slow down and if the first FP time has arrived get another one since you can because ride time for the first FP has passed. Then start using FP's where you can to decrease wait times while still searching for opportunities in stand by ques.

Obviously some of these rules vary for the most demanded rides and the FP will have to be gotten earlier. What we have found is if we are at rope drop at DS we can go straight to RnRC stand by, hit ToT stand bye and get to TSM and get a FP for about 4:00. Take some time to hit other rides stand bye and in 2 hours get a FP for something else.

Instead of complaining about the FP people flashing by you, use the system to your advantage because believe it or not your knowledge of the system from your participation on this board surpasses what 80% of the people going to WDW knows.

Knowledge is power!! Use it!!

Well said!!

 

[Goofy_Girl]

I can see the argument from both points but to be honest it doesnt really bother me either way. I always return on time but that's mainly just because I am too chicken to do otherwise ( I would hate to get the one CM that turns me away) XD