I.Q.-Does it matter?

[komondorok]

My mother is a long-time school pyschologist, and now a well sought after psychologist in private practice.

Who are the majority of her clients? Kids who did not do well on the school test that determines the cut for the gifted and talented program. Because the schools don't have the time and/or resources to give a full IQ test to every student, they often cut corners and utilize guidance counselors as you mentioned and give abbreviated tests. These tests do not give you the full picture. The resources of the school pyschologists (at least around here) are dedicated to the kids with IEP's and other plans.

The schools around here actually refer their students to my mother if they think they are gifted and talented, but just miss the cut on the abbreviated school tests. And believe me, it is a booming business. She says that at least 75% of the kids she re-tests in the proper setting, with the proper tools make the cuts in spades - that is how inaccurate the g/t tests are around here.

First of all, I wouldn't accept the results of the test. The Kaufman is a "brief" intelligence test that only measures a few indicators. And the fact that it was administered by a guidance counselor and not the school psychologist would also make me question the results, due to the performance of your nephew.

I would either demand that the school pyschologist retest your nephew, using a standardized IQ test such as the Stanford Binet - and do the complete test, not just a few subtests. Or, if the school refuses, get him to a private child psychologist who is licensed and specializes in IQ tests. And most thorough examinations will not only be the IQ test, but many others to get the full picture of who the child is. Only when you have the complete picture - done with all the subtests - can you decide to worry or not.

But to quote my mother - IQ is just a measure of potential. It does not determine how well a child will do in school or life. And she bases that on her own experiences. As a child, they labeled her as very low intelligence. Well, she ended up graduating Summa Cum Laude from an Ivy League school, as a young European immigrant who didn't speak English as fluently as she does now. Pretty good for a child whose parents were told that she was borderline developmentally disabled.

Since your nephew is doing extremely well in school, there shouldn't be any worries over a stupid number. The number does not define the child, the accomplishments will define the child. And is sounds like your nephew is doing just fine in accomplishments

 

[joha]

I'm not sure it does... My son had terrible grades in the 2nd grade (well still does...) and the teacher had concerns of him having a learning disability. Well the psychologist tested him and low and behold his IQ is in the superior range (he did not give me a number, because he felt that he was not really focused while taking the test. He was 7 at the time (I was not suprised, I know he is a smart kid). However, he has a learning disability as well. The kiddo is smart, but laazzzyy!!!! He does the minimal work to get a passing grade, and I worry about him; on the other hand he has a good heart, and he is nice (most of the time, he is a teen now).

Thomas Alva Edison said: Genius 1% inspiration, 99% prespiration.
Dedication and hard work go a long way.

 

[Viki]

My DD's IQ is 74 and she's on her way to college, no worries!

(She's been tested as low as 65 and as high as 80 over 18 years; professional psychologists told us 10 years ago that she'd never do more than work in a workshop setting - she's been a stellar employee at BK for 3 years.)

 

[dcentity2000]

I don't give a sausage about IQ.



Rich::

 

[tw1nsmom]

First of all 94 is a perfectly normal IQ. All standardized tests hold a margin for error (standard deviation). That's why 90-110 is considered average, not just 100. Any of these other sites that try to predict exactly what kind of job a person will have based on an IQ of 94 are full of hooey. Here's an abstract of a study that says just the opposite:

Research Article
Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ in Predicting Academic Performance of Adolescents

* Angela L. Duckworth11Positive Psychology Center, University of Pennsylvania and
* Martin E.P. Seligman11Positive Psychology Center, University of Pennsylvania

*
1Positive Psychology Center, University of Pennsylvania

Address correspondence to Angela L. Duckworth, Positive Psychology Center, University of Pennsylvania, 3701 Market St., Suite 200, Philadelphia, PA 19104; e-mail: angela_duckworth@yahoo.com.
Abstract

ABSTRACT—In a longitudinal study of 140 eighth-grade students, self-discipline measured by self-report, parent report, teacher report, and monetary choice questionnaires in the fall predicted final grades, school attendance, standardized achievement-test scores, and selection into a competitive high school program the following spring. In a replication with 164 eighth graders, a behavioral delay-of-gratification task, a questionnaire on study habits, and a group-administered IQ test were added. Self-discipline measured in the fall accounted for more than twice as much variance as IQ in final grades, high school selection, school attendance, hours spent doing homework, hours spent watching television (inversely), and the time of day students began their homework. The effect of self-discipline on final grades held even when controlling for first-marking-period grades, achievement-test scores, and measured IQ. These findings suggest a major reason for students falling short of their intellectual potential: their failure to exercise self-discipline.


I also agree with the poster who said that school personel often (not always) are not trained to give a full scale IQ test using all subtests. DS has a learning disability called Nonverbal Learning Disability. One of it's markers is a difference between verbal and performance IQ with verbal being higher. However, there are certain performance tests (picture identification) that DS does fine on. When the school tested him before kindergarten (he had already been tested and was receiving services at 3 yrs...it's routine to retest before entering kindergarten) the school psychologist didn't administer any of the subtests. He ended up with both an equal performance and verbal IQ. When I showed the school psychologist all of his previous testing she said she didn't have time to administer the subtests. We took DS to a pediatric neuropsychologist who did have time and confirmed the previous testing (not the school's), confirmed the diagnosis, and confirmed that DS's overall performance IQ was in the low 70's while his verbal IQ was around 105.


Even given DS lower composite IQ and the wide range of his scores, we have no idea how far he'll go or what he'll be capable of. He may live with us always and work in fast food. He may live with us, go to college and work with his father as a computer consultant (he's already a computer wiz). He may be completely independent and work in any unknown field (college professor, chemist, garbage man...?).

The one thing you sister can do to guarentee your nephews failure is to lower her expectations for him based on his IQ.

 

[stm61]

When I started 5K it was routine for all the kids to be tested during class time. I was tested, they notifed my mother they wanted to repeat the test. I restested, they wanted additional tests. At that point my mother figured, in her words, I was either a genius or the village idiot and she'd better find out which one it was because she already had 3 more at home. Turned out I had tested high. My parents and grandparents knew, but they never told me. I went thru school totally bored in reading and convinced I was an idiot in math. I was usually the kid looking out the window or counting the minutes until the bell. I never considered myself any smarter then most of the class, I thought I was in the middle.

Ds tested in the high 90's in school and is also ADHD and LD. He hates school and does as little as possible. He was retested a few years ago in the child psychologist's office. He scored between 140 and 160, depending on what subtest they were looking at. He continues to score D's, F's, and the occasional C in 8th grade.

DD's were preemies and went thru the public school preschool program. Initial scores put them at just over 100. One isn't into reading or books and brings home A's and B's. The other all A's. We moved over the summer and they were retested in the new district. Both girls somehow lost IQ pts over the summer. The one that struggles more tested higher then her sister in the low 90's. The one who continues to score straight A's is now borderline normal in the low 80's.

Do I believe the score's are accurate? Not at all! I previously taught special ed and, like a previous poster, was taught that IQ scores are simply a way to predict who will do better in school, not how well the kid will do in life. There are a lot of variables that also affect scores. In some districts testers aren't even psychologists, simply counslers (sp) or teachers. Scores can also be manipulated or deliberately scored low/high to keep kids out of special ed or get them into g/t classes. It all depends on the tester and the kid's attitude at that particular time.

 

[taximomfor4]

Ok, I won't say that IQ matters, but I won't say it doesn't, either. It's like IQ loads the gun, and personality and environment fire it. Honestly, WHO gave the test, and which test was it? At our school, they give the K-Bit (a 10 minute quickie test) before second grade. Then, in second grade, they give a group test CoGAT. NEITHER is a true IQ test.

If your sister wants/needs a true IQ test, she needs to do it independently. I took my daughter (she was 7) to a psycho-educational counselor. She gave an IQ test that my daughter hit the ceiling on. So she gave a different one that lifts the ceiling, and stopped the test when the number got crazy-high (took several days, so dd could have breaks). Then, told me about a specialist about an hour away who has authored many books, and is on the radio as well, about school and kids. She did another test, plus tests to see where my dd already was academically.

Anyway, my story is getting too long. I just wanted to say that lots of people give IQ tests -- and only some of them do it well and more accurately.

All an IQ measures is what the brain is ready to grasp. There are different levels of thinking, and MOST people reach those levels at certain ages. With HIGH or LOW IQs, the brain is reaching those capabilities at different times than average.

As for school performance, especially early on, many kids start out ahead because they are highly motivated, or just have more experience. Some of those kids truly are high-IQ, others are average. Often, the more average (or slightly above average, even) are the BETTER, more successful students. Quite a few high IQ people don't have the interest, the motivation, self-discipline, or the desire to excel in school. Truly, the very most intelligent person I know (I mean scary-smart, like almost photographic memory, etc) is a dry-cleaner delivery man.

Nobody should worry about your nephew if he is doing fine!! Just praise him for his effort, and love him for who he is. That has more effect on his future successes, I think, than IQ ever will.

Beth

 

[rayelias]

IMHO, IQ is only one factor for a person's success - and a small one at that.

Perseverence, common sense, hard work, charisma, leadership - MUCH more important.

 

[OceanAnnie]

There are many variables that come into play. Age, maybe you DN was having a bad day, maybe he was distracted, were there interruptions?, how were the directions given verbally or written? Was he familiar with the terms of the test?, was it timed?, did he finish the test?. Maybe he's not a great, "test taker" in out of the norm environments.

I'd recommend that your DSIS make an appt. to talk with the guidance counselor/test administrator and review the test and evaluation together. It would be a good follow up. I imagine the administrator would've written a few notations about how DN did during the testing and his/her impressions. A conference would clear up any questions.

Did your DSIS ask her DS his impression of the test? She may find out some information that way. I'd just encourage her to keep the conversation short and open-ended.

I think my biggest concern would be the score would be part of his permanent school records. If it was a complete shock and not in alignment with his portfolio of abilities, I'd probably have it redone. That's just me.

I'm sure your DN will continue to excel, ETA- whether he is in a gifted and talented program or not. I would want assurances that he will be challenged.

 

[bluesaturn]

In my cognitive development class we discussed the fact that many "gifted" children (throughout elementary school up to high school) have much difficulty once they get to college, because they have never learned the perserverance and dedication needed to study and work hard. Many were able to "coast" in school, and can't handle the new methods in college where more effort in neccessary. I do not mean this is always the case, not at all, just that it has been observed in some circumstances. Considering that, just because a child is not labeled gifted does not mean they won't succeed significantly in college.

A psychologist named Dweck, I believe, proposed that there are two theories of intelligence. The child with an entity theory of intelligence believes their intelligence is fixed, and will not increase. If they cannot do something they beleive it is because they are not smart enough, and that no amount of effort will make them able to do it. Children with the incremental theory of intelligence believe that intelligence can increase with hard work and learning. This theory of intelligence would be more beneficial for a child to have because when they face an obstacle they are more likely to work hard and perservere, because they think their abilities will increase with more effort. I think these theories may be interesting to your sister considering her fears.

I near had an IQ test before and I turned out fine. I really can't believe they would deny a child advanced placement because of their IQ. Isn't performance a much better indicator of who deserves advanced classes?

 

[HSMndLKfan92]

In my opinion, I.Q.s don't matter. They only meausre one's intelligence level in two intelligence areas: linguistic and logical-mathematical. Granted, there are people out there who excell in both areas, but what about those who are gifted in musical and spatial intelligence? Those people are being tested in areas that aren't really measuring their intelligence.

Also, there are children who don't "do well" when taking conventional exams. Once again, this is what an I.Q. test is. These children can, for example, write elaborate essays, draw outstanding pictures, compose songs using mnemonic devices, etc.

I.Q.s are useless, in my opinon. They're not measuring all [I think there are] 8 different intelligences. These children are being scored in areas that they're not exactly suited for.

It's shocking that a school has forced a young child to take an I.Q. test, and then deny him in a spot in the GATE program.

I hope that, in a way, this made any sense.

 

[OceanAnnie]

In my opinion, I.Q.s don't matter. They only meausre one's intelligence level in two intelligence areas: linguistic and logical-mathematical. Granted, there are people out there who excell in both areas, but what about those who are gifted in musical and spatial intelligence? Those people are being tested in areas that aren't really measuring their intelligence.

Also, there are children who don't "do well" when taking conventional exams. Once again, this is what an I.Q. test is. These children can, for example, write elaborate essays, draw outstanding pictures, compose songs using mnemonic devices, etc.

I.Q.s are useless, in my opinon. They're not measuring all [I think there are] 8 different intelligences. These children are being scored in areas that they're not exactly suited for.

It's shocking that a school has forced a young child to take an I.Q. test, and then deny him in a spot in the GATE program.

I hope that, in a way, this made any sense.

I think what you wrote makes a lot of sense! I agree with you. I think the criteria for gifted and talented should be an assessment of the whole child. Admission shouldn't boil down to one test!

 

[joha]

"Ds tested in the high 90's in school and is also ADHD and LD. He hates school and does as little as possible. He was retested a few years ago in the child psychologist's office. He scored between 140 and 160, depending on what subtest they were looking at. He continues to score D's, F's, and the occasional C in 8th grade."

God! I think he is my son's twin (also in eight grade), I forgot to mention that my son also has ADHD (as well as a learning disability).

What do you do? It worries me...he is a good kid, but I'm afraid that he is going to have a rough life, no motivation yet...I'm still hopeful that one day he will turn around and start liking school (no luck yet).

 

[Tinkerbelle'sMOM]

He will take IOWA testing this year and they can use those scores for going into GATE. IQ tests aren't really reliable at this age. When they take the IOWA they are graded against a national average and many schools use this as an indicator for "gifted". My one daughter, in first grade, scored 99% on language arts, math and social studies. She was placed in GATE the next year. I wouldn't worry about the IQ test. They will reeval that with the IOWA when they do the CoG.

She is now in the 5th grade and is still high, but she has to maintain greater than 96 on the scores to stay in the GATE program. Also, the mom can also insist on further testing.

 

[taximomfor4]

He will take IOWA testing this year and they can use those scores for going into GATE. IQ tests aren't really reliable at this age. When they take the IOWA they are graded against a national average and many schools use this as an indicator for "gifted". My one daughter, in first grade, scored 99% on language arts, math and social studies. She was placed in GATE the next year. I wouldn't worry about the IQ test. They will reeval that with the IOWA when they do the CoG.

She is now in the 5th grade and is still high, but she has to maintain greater than 96 on the scores to stay in the GATE program. Also, the mom can also insist on further testing.

Not all districts use IOWA criteria. Our district's GATE program only does academic-type enrichment, not arts. So they ONLY use IQ, and it has to be above 135 to get in. If they went with the IOWA tests here, 1% of students would get in with a 99% score cutoff. The way it is now, far less get in.

Beth

 

[jrmasm]

She is now in the 5th grade and is still high, but she has to maintain greater than 96 on the scores to stay in the GATE program. Also, the mom can also insist on further testing.

That seems odd to me. And potentially damaging. Sorry kid, you used to be Gifted and Talented but you're not any more.

 

[Tiffer]

OP, I didn't read the entire thread, but there is obviously something inconsistent with the grades and the IQ test.

My first question would be was it the stanford-Binet and who administered it?

Then I would guess that if the IQ test is in fact accurate, then the school system the child is in is sub standard, as he is getting honor roll grades with a 94 IQ!

OR

That the test was improperly administered an/or interpreted. Or the boy just had a bad day. And then re-take the test.

It can't be a good school system (as he is getitng straight A's) AND he legitimately has a 94 IQ. It doesn't add up.

 

[nannerbadnanner]

Motivation will get you further than IQ ever will.

 

[Nascia]

OP, I didn't read the entire thread, but there is obviously something inconsistent with the grades and the IQ test.

My first question would be was it the stanford-Binet and who administered it?

Then I would guess that if the IQ test is in fact accurate, then the school system the child is in is sub standard, as he is getting honor roll grades with a 94 IQ!

OR

That the test was improperly administered an/or interpreted. Or the boy just had a bad day. And then re-take the test.

It can't be a goos school system (as he is getitng straight A's) AND he legitimately has a 94 IQ. It doesn't add up.

I would have to disagree with you here. It may be that the test was inappropriately administered, but 94 is really not a low IQ. It's in the normal range, not even on the low end either. I know many kids that tested in the average range, sometimes lower. They always made the honor roll when I didn't, because they worked harder and were much more motivated than I was.

 

[Disney Doll]

Tell your sister to get a grip. Once she gets a grip, tell her to use her IQ to figure out why it's so important to her that her "happy, calm, cooperative, loves to read, good in math at age 7 child" be in the G&T program, or have a higher than average IQ, because that's what this is about. It's about your sister's reaction. The kid sounds fine. He sounds like he likes school, he sounds like he's a happy, well-adjusted child. Of course, with Mom going around boo-hooing because she won't be able to brag to all the other mothers how "little Johnny is gifted" I am sure that eventually he'll pick up on that and live down to her expectations.

Leave the kid alone. There are a million reasons why he may not have done well on the test, all of which have been discussed ad nauseum here. I wasn't in the G&T programs at school, I have no idea what my IQ is, I got into college, have been an RN for 24 years, haven't killed anyone, and am a contributing member of society, own my own home, got married etc.

As someone who couldn't have children, reactions like your sister is having to something as ridiculous as an IQ test adminstered to a 7 year old really annoy the crap out of me. Tell her to be thankful to have a happy, well-adjusted, pleasant child who likes school. I'd give my eyeteeth to have that.