I need some advice, serious problem (update 05/05/09)

[Lovin' Lorne]

Wow. I just read your whole story today. What a mess! It should serve as a word to the wise to anyone who thinks about renting points in the future. I know I'll be extra careful if I ever decide to try it.

Hopefully you'll be able to put this behind you, one way or the other.

 

[Dean]

Still here, still no refund. I am beyond bummed. Legal steps are going to be taken now.

Did you ever discuss with DVC? While I'd be very interested in having you deal with this issue legally, I'd give you two cautions. One is that to be careful you don't invest more than it's worth to you which would be easy to do and the other is to question whether you truly have a legal case. Reviewing the initial information I'm not sure you do from a legal standpoint. You should seek out an appropriate attorney that will give you an opinion on this question and will give you a limit or good faith estimate on your costs to pursue this. I'd suspect just getting an attorney to write a threatening letter is likely your best recourse.

 

[JimMIA]

Sorry to hear that he failed to keep his word...again.

I have this person's real name, so any prospective renters can PM me with the true name of the person they're renting from and I tell you whether you're dealing with this problem owner.

For those of you who have contacted me since this thread started, I've had his name from the start and I would have told you if he was the party you were dealing with. I have not had any inquiries on him so far.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Kelli, Dean makes good sense. You don't want this to cost you more. I agree that usually a well written letter by an attorney is all that is required.

 

[JimMIA]

An attorney would normally start the festivities with a demand letter, and that often gets the deadbeat off the dime because they realize you are serious.

However, not many attorneys would send that kind of letter without some assurance that their client was willing to follow through. The letter, after all, depends on the client's willingness and ability to continue if the letter doesn't work. Most attorneys won't make a threat they can't back up.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Hey guys. Without giving too much away, I will say that I think it's worth it for me to follow through legally. I wouldn't spend thousands to get the $1000back I am owed though. But, I will take any step possible without going broke in the process. There are different avenues I can explore in each state (FL, NH and MN) to help me as well. DVC is interested in his information and has almost everything now from me. Also, the IRS is interested in the income that he received. So, that's what I have at the present time. My final certified letter went in the mail today. I'm sickened that a person who was so good to me originally is doing this to me now. I've protected him and his information from the beginning because I am a kind, understanding person. Now I just feel run over.

 

[kdzgon]

Sorry to hear that he failed to keep his word...again.

I have this person's real name, so any prospective renters can PM me with the true name of the person they're renting from and I tell you whether you're dealing with this problem owner.

For those of you who have contacted me since this thread started, I've had his name from the start and I would have told you if he was the party you were dealing with. I have not had any inquiries on him so far.

At the threat of risking flames and/or a warning (or worse), I really need to ask something. First, what I think I understand so far:

I thought I had read earlier that the DIS board really does not get involved with what is essentially a private transaction. There is a contract between parties (I will agree I would never as an owner use that contract), renting of points does include some risk for both parties as well as some potential reward (owner gets cash for points; renter gets a much-lower-than-market room rate), the renter is the one that canceled the contract originally, the contract includes some ambiguous language re: "possible" refunds, the renter has tried to re-schedule and/or receive a refund, owner has been hard to reach but has made a few promises, thus far not kept. Said owner also rented successfully in the past and more recently, to another poster who had some difficulty getting responses from owner, but that rental did indeed complete as agreed, incl adding DDP and ME.

I think (but acknowledge I may have missed something) that you have had no direct contact with the owner/have not heard his account of the situation, but you have had contact with the potential renter, and that is the source of the majority of your information to date (re: this rental).

Based on all these assumptions/understandings, I have to say I am a little dismayed with the tone and comments within many of the posts here, including your disparaging comments (esp as a Mod) and intervention against this owner. Had this owner been smarter and done what many other owners that rent do, he would have make the contract final - case closed, no exceptions. (This would also have made it easier for the renter to have trip insurance coverage, a smart move with any vacation that includes non-refundable costs.) Let's face it - as an OP pointed out, had the renter not had a personal issue, she would have scored quite a nice "deal", paying approx 30% of the going rate for a Disney room!

Now, NONE of this means I have no sympathy for the renter - I certainly hope she gets a rental before the owner-issued deadline, though I will agree that doesn't seem to be very likely. Life throws curve balls sometimes, and I certainly hope she manages to find some pixie dust in this issue. However, the owner could be having a life as difficult - or even more so - than that experienced by the renter. The difference is, if and when this owner's life gets set straight, his issues will continue to dog him in this arena thanks in large part to the opinions formed via this thread. Again, had he taken a harder line to start with, this thread would have absolutely no basis. Thanks to a more ambiguous contract (likely presented in order to be nicer to a potential renter) he has now been branded a "deadbeat", threatened with action via NH law officials (initiated by their family members and/or friends), and called many more names, yet few if any here even knows the "whys" behind the actions.

Maybe I am more sensitive to this issue, but my life has overwhelmed me in recent months. Beginning just days before Christmas, DH was pushed out of his job, we found out 1 DD is heading to Iraq for at least a yr (she had just had her first clear follow-up in Nov after a chemo course for cervical cancer) - her 1 son is already with us, and we may have 2nd son as well for duration, another DD is moving to Japan for 3 yrs to join her DH already deploying from there on a regular basis, another DD began having troubles with her pregnancy, eldest DD was diagnosed with Stage IV melanoma (entire lymph system, most bones, abdomen) - 3rd surgery on Fri, now out of clinical trial, DDIL was newly pregnant and just lost the baby yesterday. Our kids are spread out in four states, just to complicate this a bit more. Guess what: we are very behind in our everyday tasks, and had I rented points before last November odds are I would not have been very good at helping change things around. Truth is there are times we don't answer the phone if we don't know the caller - many more times, we don't answer because we aren't there, or maybe because we have collapsed due to exhaustion!

I realize my example is extreme, but I assure you it is all true. As overwhelming as life is lately (and I've only hit the major highlights) I'm sure I am not the only one. I certainly don't share these details with everybody, so I'm reasonably certain that if this person's life is as overwhelming as mine, he might not be up to sharing their travails with strangers!

Anyway, my real question is "are these posts (yours as well as those you moderate) and your involvement really appropriate considering the parameters of the DIS boards?" I know your heart is right and your intentions are likely well placed, but are all the posts on this thread really in compliance? Personally, I found some of the posts (in the thread, not yours per se) to be a bit disturbing at best.

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

Jim is not one of the board moderators...so why question his involvement? He's just trying to help, as have many of the others that have posted to this thread.

I know we've only heard one side of the story, but everything presented thus far indicates the owner has made several promises that he hasn't followed up on and is essentially stealing OP's money. Yes, he may have some circumstances we aren't aware of...but it doesn't sound like he's indicted any of that to the OP either. That's what's so crazy about all of this -- it would be so easy to take care of if the owner would just hold up his end of the deal.

kdzgon: I'm truly sorry that you've had such a rough go of it lately and hope things get better for you soon.

 

[luvindisneyworld]

I totally feel for her and her family who wouldnt? She has done everything possible to resolve this issue without any trouble.This has been going on for months and months. This is a Ridiculous situation and she she be compensated her money back. If it were me she has been alot nicer with the situation that I would have been. See if it were me I would have done what she is doing along time ago and I can tell you right now I would have not been as nice and I would not ever give up on this until this guy paid.

At the threat of risking flames and/or a warning (or worse), I really need to ask something. First, what I think I understand so far:

I thought I had read earlier that the DIS board really does not get involved with what is essentially a private transaction. There is a contract between parties (I will agree I would never as an owner use that contract), renting of points does include some risk for both parties as well as some potential reward (owner gets cash for points; renter gets a much-lower-than-market room rate), the renter is the one that canceled the contract originally, the contract includes some ambiguous language re: "possible" refunds, the renter has tried to re-schedule and/or receive a refund, owner has been hard to reach but has made a few promises, thus far not kept. Said owner also rented successfully in the past and more recently, to another poster who had some difficulty getting responses from owner, but that rental did indeed complete as agreed, incl adding DDP and ME.

I think (but acknowledge I may have missed something) that you have had no direct contact with the owner/have not heard his account of the situation, but you have had contact with the potential renter, and that is the source of the majority of your information to date (re: this rental).

Based on all these assumptions/understandings, I have to say I am a little dismayed with the tone and comments within many of the posts here, including your disparaging comments (esp as a Mod) and intervention against this owner. Had this owner been smarter and done what many other owners that rent do, he would have make the contract final - case closed, no exceptions. (This would also have made it easier for the renter to have trip insurance coverage, a smart move with any vacation that includes non-refundable costs.) Let's face it - as an OP pointed out, had the renter not had a personal issue, she would have scored quite a nice "deal", paying approx 30% of the going rate for a Disney room!

Now, NONE of this means I have no sympathy for the renter - I certainly hope she gets a rental before the owner-issued deadline, though I will agree that doesn't seem to be very likely. Life throws curve balls sometimes, and I certainly hope she manages to find some pixie dust in this issue. However, the owner could be having a life as difficult - or even more so - than that experienced by the renter. The difference is, if and when this owner's life gets set straight, his issues will continue to dog him in this arena thanks in large part to the opinions formed via this thread. Again, had he taken a harder line to start with, this thread would have absolutely no basis. Thanks to a more ambiguous contract (likely presented in order to be nicer to a potential renter) he has now been branded a "deadbeat", threatened with action via NH law officials (initiated by their family members and/or friends), and called many more names, yet few if any here even knows the "whys" behind the actions.

Maybe I am more sensitive to this issue, but my life has overwhelmed me in recent months. Beginning just days before Christmas, DH was pushed out of his job, we found out 1 DD is heading to Iraq for at least a yr (she had just had her first clear follow-up in Nov after a chemo course for cervical cancer) - her 1 son is already with us, and we may have 2nd son as well for duration, another DD is moving to Japan for 3 yrs to join her DH already deploying from there on a regular basis, another DD began having troubles with her pregnancy, eldest DD was diagnosed with Stage IV melanoma (entire lymph system, most bones, abdomen) - 3rd surgery on Fri, now out of clinical trial, DDIL was newly pregnant and just lost the baby yesterday. Our kids are spread out in four states, just to complicate this a bit more. Guess what: we are very behind in our everyday tasks, and had I rented points before last November odds are I would not have been very good at helping change things around. Truth is there are times we don't answer the phone if we don't know the caller - many more times, we don't answer because we aren't there, or maybe because we have collapsed due to exhaustion!

I realize my example is extreme, but I assure you it is all true. As overwhelming as life is lately (and I've only hit the major highlights) I'm sure I am not the only one. I certainly don't share these details with everybody, so I'm reasonably certain that if this person's life is as overwhelming as mine, he might not be up to sharing their travails with strangers!

Anyway, my real question is "are these posts (yours as well as those you moderate) and your involvement really appropriate considering the parameters of the DIS boards?" I know your heart is right and your intentions are likely well placed, but are all the posts on this thread really in compliance? Personally, I found some of the posts (in the thread, not yours per se) to be a bit disturbing at best.

 

[JimMIA]

kdzgon -- I don't think you need to worry about flames or warnings. There is nothing in your post that would warrant either. Your questions and comments are perfectly legitimate, although you have one important fact wrong.

As mentioned above, I am NOT a mod, so please don't hold the DISboards responsible for something I post! If someone wants to take issue with something I post, that's fine -- but don't take it out on the poor mods!

I also have not really been involved very much in this situation, other than to make a few comments and suggestions along the way. My comments are my own, not from anyone else, and many of them are similar to comments by other posters.

I recognize that there are at least two sides to this story, and I am only aware of part of one of those sides. My issues with this owner are simply that he has repeatedly made promises to the OP which he has not kept. If he'd just keep his word, I think a lot of his problems would go away.

Unfortunately, I also know of three additional DIS members who have had significant problems with this same owner. None of them lost any money, and all of their vacations eventually were fulfilled, but they went through a lot of aggravation and stress because all communications seemed to cease as soon as they paid in full. And, in some cases, there was also a pattern of broken promises, just like OP had.

So, if someone asked me if I thought they should rent from this guy, I would certainly tell them no. This guy's virtually a guaranteed nightmare to do business with. That's just my opinion, of course -- certainly not the opinion of the DIS management.

 

[robinb]

IIRC the owner was sent a link to this thread. He could have easily stated his side of the transaction.

 

[JRDisneyClan]

Kelli, I'm sorry to hear about what you've been going through & hope that things get resolved to your satisfaction.

We do only have 1 side, but I have no reason to doubt that OP would escalate this situation without first contacting the member in any number of ways & I don't think it's unreasonable to expect follow-up contact & follow through to anything that may have been promised.

As for reputation, yes, a no refund policy would've made all of this moot, but ultimately, that wasn't what was offered so the member has made the bed that they now have to lay in. You might be able to question one problem rental as a difference of opinion between 2 people (not that this is what appears to be happening), but when there are 2 (what we know, confirmed by the renters themselves) or more problems (communication or otherwise) reported, that's a pattern which can't be discounted at this point.

kd, I hope things only get better for you & your family and godspeed to those in your family in harm's way.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Thanks everyone for the support! I appreciate all of the advice, your kind ears and listening to me cry. Believe me, I would rather not be posting here. I could have mentioned his name and did other things to make this owner look bad if that was my intention. But I haven't. I've done everything possible to make it easy for him to fix this. I just wish he would. That's it.

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

Kelli -- I think the majority of us realize you have been an absolute saint throughout this entire thread. We're all pulling for you!

 

[kdzgon]

Jim is not one of the board moderators...so why question his involvement? He's just trying to help, as have many of the others that have posted to this thread.

I know we've only heard one side of the story, but everything presented thus far indicates the owner has made several promises that he hasn't followed up on and is essentially stealing OP's money. Yes, he may have some circumstances we aren't aware of...but it doesn't sound like he's indicted any of that to the OP either. That's what's so crazy about all of this -- it would be so easy to take care of if the owner would just hold up his end of the deal.

kdzgon: I'm truly sorry that you've had such a rough go of it lately and hope things get better for you soon.

Thank you for your kind words. I thought long and hard about posting the details of my life, but I wanted to show people that life really can get that overwhelming that quickly.

As to Jim, so sorry! I thought Jim was a moderator - I guess it is just because he is so helpful so often.

I do still feel the offer to confirm the owner's info is beyond the protocol of these boards, though. In a post-9/11 world, sharing of an individual's personal information is much more sensitive than it once was, and I am a little surprised to see an open offer on a public thread. Remember, unlike the prior situation (where an alleged owner took the funds and never delivered the reservation) there is not a clear-cut violation or fraud here. This is a situation where there was a contract, money and reservations exchanged hands, and then one party to the contract withdrew from the agreement. Even if you believe the owner is unequivocally required to make a new reservation, there is no time line set out in the contract so he has not yet defaulted. (And, yes, I believe it is an awful situation for the renter, but that doesn't make the personal attacks OK in my book! JMHO)

As to the owner's side of the story, I don't think he should have an obligation to air his personal situation (if indeed that is even the issue) on these boards just to counterbalance the conclusions and/or allegations that have been posted by people not party to the contract or even privy to the terms.

As to the comments (not just yours) of him "essentially stealing [the] OP's money", I don't agree that is a "given" based on what the contract says. It is somewhat ambiguous with terms that are not quantifiable but rather are subject to interpretation - and again, had the owner simply made the transaction final (as recommended by a number of owners, incl Jim, I believe), none of this would even be an issue.

I think the original request for help and much of the responses are appropriate - I don't have a problem with lovemy3babes trying to get something for her points, or asking for help here, etc, even if she is the one that originally moved to cancel the contract. In fact, I think the right thing for the owner to do if at all possible is to re-book something with those points, especially due to the contract he chose to use, but then that is a general opinion based more on my belief of right and wrong and karma than a legal opinion of any sort.

I NEVER said lovemy3babes doesn't deserve or shouldn't receive support - and assistance, where possible. I just believe some posts have gone overboard and are inappropriate based on the rules and regs of the DIS. I believe it is possible to support, sympathize and even assist without the disparaging remarks and/or veiled threats. Do you all really think there have been no "personal attacks" to/about an individual with whom most of us have had no personal experience?

 

[luvindisneyworld]

Are you not understanding that the owner did not make it final? So he is obligated to do what he is suppose to for the renter. If it was final then that would have been a diffrent story but it is not.
Yes he had the chance to come and give his side of the sstory but he knows what he did is wrong and thats that. He is a Dis member and I am so sure that he has even looked at this thread many times and chose not to give his side of the story so that is his problem not ours. So why should we not think that he just took her money I know if it were me I would be on this thread in a minute explaining myself.

So I dont feel sorry for hime whatsoever and he deserves everything thats coming to him.

4 people at least have had a hard time with him.

I am so glad that DVC and the IRS knows about him and I really would be doing the same thing that the OP is doing.

Also Jim is not giving their name out to anyone you cannot PM him and ask him to give you the name but you can PM with the name if a renter that you are wanting to use and he can tell you if thats the one or not.
So I have finished with this conversation we will just have to cheerfully agree to disagree on this.

Thank you for your kind words. I thought long and hard about posting the details of my life, but I wanted to show people that life really can get that overwhelming that quickly.

As to Jim, so sorry! I thought Jim was a moderator - I guess it is just because he is so helpful so often.

I do still feel the offer to confirm the owner's info is beyond the protocol of these boards, though. In a post-9/11 world, sharing of an individual's personal information is much more sensitive than it once was, and I am a little surprised to see an open offer on a public thread. Remember, unlike the prior situation (where an alleged owner took the funds and never delivered the reservation) there is not a clear-cut violation or fraud here. This is a situation where there was a contract, money and reservations exchanged hands, and then one party to the contract withdrew from the agreement. Even if you believe the owner is unequivocally required to make a new reservation, there is no time line set out in the contract so he has not yet defaulted. (And, yes, I believe it is an awful situation for the renter, but that doesn't make the personal attacks OK in my book! JMHO)

As to the owner's side of the story, I don't think he should have an obligation to air his personal situation (if indeed that is even the issue) on these boards just to counterbalance the conclusions and/or allegations that have been posted by people not party to the contract or even privy to the terms.

As to the comments (not just yours) of him "essentially stealing [the] OP's money", I don't agree that is a "given" based on what the contract says. It is somewhat ambiguous with terms that are not quantifiable but rather are subject to interpretation - and again, had the owner simply made the transaction final (as recommended by a number of owners, incl Jim, I believe), none of this would even be an issue.

I think the original request for help and much of the responses are appropriate - I don't have a problem with lovemy3babes trying to get something for her points, or asking for help here, etc, even if she is the one that originally moved to cancel the contract. In fact, I think the right thing for the owner to do if at all possible is to re-book something with those points, especially due to the contract he chose to use, but then that is a general opinion based more on my belief of right and wrong and karma than a legal opinion of any sort.

I NEVER said lovemy3babes doesn't deserve or shouldn't receive support - and assistance, where possible. I just believe some posts have gone overboard and are inappropriate based on the rules and regs of the DIS. I believe it is possible to support, sympathize and even assist without the disparaging remarks and/or veiled threats. Do you all really think there have been no "personal attacks" to/about an individual with whom most of us have had no personal experience?

 

[crisi]

kdzgon, I agree with you and think you have been quite eloquent.

Keep your chin up - when it rains it pours. We went through a brother in law getting divorced, a best friend having a daughter with severe birth defects, a sister getting out of an abusive relationship we didn't realize was abusive, then taking three trips through rehab over a year, and another sister going through chemo for breast cancer, and my mother in law going through brain surgery to prevent a massive stroke in about a two year period. Not as spine chilling as yours, but I do wish sometimes I was eight years old again.

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

Again, I think there might be some confusion...it is my understanding that Jim is not disclosing the owner's name, just confirming whether the name given to him by renters is the same person.

Also, I still feel the owner has taken the OP's money and not provided the goods paid for -- which in my book is "stealing".

 

[bavaria]

Are you not understanding that the owner did not make it final? So he is obligated to do what he is suppose to for the renter.

It was my understanding from the very first post that the OP cancelled the reservation, and the contract did not suggest that she would receive a full refund.

Some owners are more likely to work to rebook than others; if the owner was dealing with 'life' they may not have time to check various dates. I suspect that the owner may have offered or agreed to do so as a goodwill gesture. The intent of the contract may not have required him to find alternate dates, and at some point he may just have decided that he could not extend the goodwill to do so.

 

[crisi]

Also, I still feel the owner has taken the OP's money and not provided the goods paid for -- which in my book is "stealing".

Well, we are given to understand he was willing to provide the good she paid for - then she changed the terms by cancelling the trip. He contracted some sort of "best effort" to reschedule - but we really don't know what sort of effort he made or what he even meant by best effort.

Granted, he should have just put "final, non-refundable" in his contract and then he wouldn't be in a situation of looking unethical (whatever his situation is).