I just don't get this...

[locomania]

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38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
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That was a bit harsh!! I guess you don't mess with the lord.

 

[MrsKreamer]

I like to thru in some thoughts here.

1) I always thought that those who have the 'experience' make the best counselors. So in an organization whose hierachy are celibrate what makes them an authority in 'sex'?

Because in today priests are trained to be counslers. To help counsle married people one may have to discuss sex. Even though they are celibate, they can still discuss what the Catholic Church teaches.

2) Look at the history of the Catholic Church. There have been popes who sired children while Pope. They did not lose the job.

That was hundres of years ago...The Church as admitted to that being a dark time in our history....let it go.

3) Is celibracy based on actual 'words/preachings' or based on Jesus was most likely not married. Something from an historical point of view cannot be proven either way.

Celibacy with priests started b/c priests are not allowed to marry. They aren't allowed to marry b/c the Church feels that being a priest should be a complete devotion. The Church feels it would unfair to that family to have the priest completly devoted to the Church and not to the family(I hope that made sense). Since it is against the Church to have sex outside of marriage priest are celibate.

4) The idea of procreation as reason for 'sex' is supposed to be rooted in the 'spilling of seed' statements in the bible. However, The Torah has statements in it and elaborated on in The Talmud that 'sex' outside of procreation is a wonderful thing (my paraphrase).

Most of our teaching are traditional rather then strait from the Bible. Catholics believe that sex is a gift from God to married couples. Married couples can experience their love for each other and God through this. However the Church also wants you to be open to life coming from that gift.

5) Birth Control within a marriage. According to Jewish law (and I can cut/paste my source if anyone interested), male b/c is prohibited but not female b/c. Somewhat paternalistic I know. So since church's roots thru Jesus are in Jewish Law how did they jump to no b/c and who made that jump. Personally, I think it was done so as to increase the number of 'new' members in the Church.

First le me say that Jesus had many issues with Jewish law, so saying that early Church was based soley on the fact that Jesus was Jewish is flawed. The Church thinks that it isn't right to use artificial means of BC. Some agree some don't. Whatever personal feeling you have on the matter doesn't really matter at all b/c you are not Catholic it has nothing to do with you. I am not trying to be mean, just blunt.

 

[MrsKreamer]

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38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
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That was a bit harsh!! I guess you don't mess with the lord.

God was very spitful in the Old Testament.

 

[septbride2002]

How can someone not get touchy with people attacking their religion? Does it really affect you in any way what Catholics do? It's not like we go around telling everyone that they should be Catholic or they are going to Hell. Believe whatever you want to believe. All religions have made some mistakes, they are ALL MANmade. I like the Catholic faith because it is old and traditional, and to me that is comforting in a day and age with so much hate and anger. I don't badger you with questions filled with snide remarks or tell you your religion is wrong b/c of things done in the past. So I would appreciate, I am sure my fellow Catholics would as well, the same curtiousy.

But SOME present day Catholics do attack other religions. There was a great interview with Mel Gibson after he released "Passion of Christ" where he states that his Episcopalian wife will not be admitted to heaven because she is not Roman Catholic. How would you have liked it if he said that only Lutherans would go to heaven? There are many many many Roman Catholics who share the same belief as Mel. Not to mention the recent campaign that my diocese has been on stating that gay men and women are the downfall of today society. Printing false information in terms of the pro-life movement, and so on. And their recent attitude towards the elections has left a bad taste in people's mouth. I remember when the Catholic Church use to be about Catholics - now it seems to be more about pointing the finger.

Again this is not all Catholics - but it is usually the loud minority that gets noticed.

The Terri Schiavo case was dishearting to watch as a priest comes out and says that MS is a murderer, that those that supported MS are murders - well yea, that kind of love and compassion makes me really want to step into church on Sunday.

Our new arch-bishop has ordered that no political candidate that supports Pro-Choice should be allowed the sacrament of communion.

This is what is in the news - this is what people not of our faith know, and none of it looks very positive.

I grew up in the Catholic Church - I was an altar girl for Pete's sake! And I feel comfortable there, however I do not practice nor do I condone the recent actions taken by the church. There are some parishes that are very open and understanding, and there are those that are not.

~Amanda

 

[septbride2002]

Celibacy with priests started b/c priests are not allowed to marry. They aren't allowed to marry b/c the Church feels that being a priest should be a complete devotion. The Church feels it would unfair to that family to have the priest completly devoted to the Church and not to the family(I hope that made sense). Since it is against the Church to have sex outside of marriage priest are celibate.

Take this with a grain of salt. I was told by my Aunt and Grandmother that in the early 1900's up to maybe the 1940's priest were allowed to marry. However it became a concern that if a priest and spouse were to divorce that the spouse would have right to church property. Therefore it became convient for them state priest could not marry.

Again - this is what I was told by family that have been practining Catholics since before I was born, but I don't know how accurate it is.

 

[julia & nicks mom]

But SOME present day Catholics do attack other religions. There was a great interview with Mel Gibson after he released "Passion of Christ" where he states that his Episcopalian wife will not be admitted to heaven because she is not Roman Catholic. How would you have liked it if he said that only Lutherans would go to heaven?

Amanda

ironically Pope John Paul II very much believed in religious tolerance and beleived it would be arrogant to believe that we are the only true church.

 

[DisDuck]

Since you want to be blunt so will I. What is The Old Testament? Never heard of it. In my book, The Torah, G-D is not spiteful.

Why should I not ask questions? That is how someone, at least me, learns. So who said that artificial b/c is wrong, if not from scripture? So if devotion to church would be unfair to family then the other religions that allow married clergy are being unfair to their families or maybe these married clergy are not devoted enough to their calling?

Sure some (or all) priests are trained in counselling. But what is this training? Do they get a degree in pyschology? Do they take training/degree in sex counselling? Do they undergo counselling themselves as part of their training to feel what the other side is feeling and if so, how could they for sex counselling as they are celibrate?

This is my fear/point in all the threads on religion I have participated in. That is if you are not a member of the group stay out since only our way counts. I am interested in learning. I am willing to change opinions if some mine is based on incomplete and/or erroneous facts.

 

[septbride2002]

ironically Pope John Paul II very much believed in religious tolerance and beleived it would be arrogant to believe that we are the only true church.

Yes he did, doesn't mean everyone noticed. And there are those dioceses who continue to preach it rather then moving forward on what Pope John Paul II believed.

Funny how some can teach religious tolerance, and some cannot. I saw a great bumper sticker the other day that said, "I am for seperation of Church and Hate."

~Amanda

 

[beattyfamily]

It was just a question - step off the soapbox now. Be careful - you might twist your ankle looking down on someone like that.

~Amanda

And I answered it didn't I? My, you sure can get nasty at times.

 

[septbride2002]

Since you want to be blunt so will I. What is The Old Testament? Never heard of it. In my book, The Torah, G-D is not spiteful.

Why should I not ask questions? That is how someone, at least me, learns. So who said that artificial b/c is wrong, if not from scripture? So if devotion to church would be unfair to family then the other religions that allow married clergy are being unfair to their families or maybe these married clergy are not devoted enough to their calling?

Sure some (or all) priests are trained in counselling. But what is this training? Do they get a degree in pyschology? Do they take training/degree in sex counselling? Do they undergo counselling themselves as part of their training to feel what the other side is feeling and if so, how could they for sex counselling as they are celibrate?

This is my fear/point in all the threads on religion I have participated in. That is if you are not a member of the group stay out since only our way counts. I am interested in learning. I am willing to change opinions if some mine is based on incomplete and/or erroneous facts.

Then I suggest you talk to those more open the Beattyfamily. Who in my opinion is behaving exactly like most Catholics I know - judgementally.

~Amanda

 

[septbride2002]

And I answered it didn't I? My, you sure can get nasty at times.

Right back at ya! You've had an attitude from the first post on this thread. You could have answered my question nicely, instead you did it with venom. If you didn't intend it that way, then maybe you should work on your people skills.

~Amanda

 

[beattyfamily]

Then I suggest you talk to those more open the Beattyfamily. Who in my opinion is behaving exactly like most Catholics I know - judgementally.

~Amanda

Excuse me, how am I judging anyone? I've answer questions, that's all. I haven't told anyone here that they're going to hell for using B/C. I'm so confused by your attitude toward me. Why are you so nasty? Why are you calling me judgemental? Could you quote me please and show me where?

 

[orangeblossom]

I don't completely understand this myself. The OP asked an excellent question.

 

[beattyfamily]

Right back at ya! You've had an attitude from the first post on this thread. You could have answered my question nicely, instead you did it with venom. If you didn't intend it that way, then maybe you should work on your people skills.

~Amanda

I think you should take your own advice about working on people skills. I didn't personally attack anyone.

What was wrong with my first post? I'm totally shocked by your attitute. I guess you didn't like that I corrected you.

 

[simpilotswife]

Agreed - but because some people aren't as devout as others, the Church should change its teachings to cater to the less devout?

No I am saying that the church should change it's teachings so that spouses are not subject to the less devout.

I'm not assuming anything of the kind - I'm simply saying that they need to either decide as a couple to work within the framework of the Church or not to do so. If the more devout member of the couple can't in good conscience use condoms and can't in good conscience divorce, then it seems that he or she would be making the decision to remain celibate. That is the choice of the individual. Whether you or I think that is a good choice or a valid choice is irrelevant - it's up to the individual. To expect the Church to waive the rules just because we don't like them makes no sense to me.

And what does the spouse do who has a partner that forces sex on them? At least condoms would provide some measure of protection.

 

[septbride2002]

I think you should take your own advice about working on people skills. I didn't personally attack anyone.

What was wrong with my first post? I'm totally shocked by your attitute. I guess you didn't like that I corrected you.

#1) there was nothing to correct - I was asking the question because I wasn't sure? The fact that you felt the need to "correct" me rather then inform me is why I felt you had attitude.

#2) Here is your answer to me:
This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but there's plenty of evidence to refute what you brought up about Pope Pius XII BUT I quoted Pope Pius XI, different Pope entirely.

I really don't want to debate this. I only want to answer sincere questions and correct any errors I think I see written.

Why not just say, "No that is not the same pope and there is evidence to show that the pope you are thinking of Pope Pius XII that he was not invovled in that way of thinking."

Why bring up "debates" I'm not trying to debate anything. And why mention that you only want sincere questions - it was a sincere question! But thanks for judging my sincerity.

#3) Here is your response to another poster:
That was what I found (for you) with a quick search trying to help you out. Why should I do the work for you and what's the point anyway? I don't believe your questions are sincere.

That's nice - this person is asking questions and you give them - why should I help you? Your questions aren't sincere manta. Are you a mind reader?

That is why the attitude with you - because you seem to be dishing it out.

~Amanda

 

[rkrivas]

I have heard a lot of people denounce the pope for being against condoms and contraception...

Hopefully, I won't get too flamed for this, but going back to the OP, I think one of the reasons that the Church is denounced for being against BC is that there are third world countries with large Catholic populations where families adhere to this rule and are having more children than can be supported. With education opportunites not being as advanced or available to these regions, it might be harder to spread the word about NFP.

 

[beattyfamily]

#1) there was nothing to correct - I was asking the question because I wasn't sure? The fact that you felt the need to "correct" me rather then inform me is why I felt you had attitude.

#2) Here is your answer to me:
This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but there's plenty of evidence to refute what you brought up about Pope Pius XII BUT I quoted Pope Pius XI, different Pope entirely.

I really don't want to debate this. I only want to answer sincere questions and correct any errors I think I see written.

Why not just say, "No that is not the same pope and there is evidence to show that the pope you are thinking of Pope Pius XII that he was not invovled in that way of thinking."

Why bring up "debates" I'm not trying to debate anything. And why mention that you only want sincere questions - it was a sincere question! But thanks for judging my sincerity.

I guess I didn't understand your point in the first place. What does that Pope's stand on the holocaust have to do the the subject of this thread (Birth control). So I thought you were trying to start something with me, for that I'm sorry. But I did answered your question.

When I said: "I really don't want to debate this. I only want to answer sincere questions and correct any errors I think I see written." it was in general to everyone posting to this thread, not just you.

I really only came here to answer questions and possibly correct things posted that I think are not correct teachings of the Church. That's all. I don't want to debate though. I don't want to argue with anyone and if I said something to offend you, or Disduck, then I'm sorry. I just don't understand why people (in general, not you) come here and ask questions like these and then don't like the answers and continue to argue or try and pick apart the answer given. Why not do the research yourself (in general, not you)? I don't get it. I just get so tired of all these threads that almost always end up bashing a Church (and a Pope) that I love dearly.

There's yet another new Catholic thread started that I'll certainly try to avoid. It's such a waste of my time.

OT: They had to stop the line to see the Pope as it's 24 hours long. So amazing to me. Wish I could be there. I'll be up at 4:00a Friday though.

 

[RitaZ.]

BeattyF.~ I rarely post to religious threads, I don't even open them. I noted your tone when you replied to my question. I didn't ask you or anyone else to do any "research" to provide me with an explanation to my VERY sincere question. Not sure why you would think it wasn't sincere... I thought that since this was an exchange of opinions/questions that someone would address my question and provide an answer. Typically, that's the normal flow of conversation.

Trust me, I like to be informed and I'm very capable of doing my own research. I guess I was looking for a meaningful answer to my question and didn't get one. In the future, please don't burden yourself with having to do the work for me.

Enjoy your day!

 

[6_Time_Momma]

And what does the spouse do who has a partner that forces sex on them? At least condoms would provide some measure of protection.

Quite honestly, I think if a partner forced himself on his wife, then more than likely, he really wouldn't take time to put on a condom.