I hate to say it , and I hope I'm wrong , but ...

[Eoghann]

Despise it all you want, but, sorry, that's not how restaurants work in the US. If that's your belief system, then feel free to only patronize the handful of restaurants in the industry that are charging service fees instead, or jacking up their prices 20-30% to pay minimum wage instead of having servers collect tips.

Did you bother to read what I wrote beyond the first sentence? I'm perfectly aware of how it works and what has to be done. It's all there in the post you quoted.

That doesn't mean I like it or think it should be that way.

 

[Nancyg56]

Hear, hear! Tipping is a crutch for companies, so that they can underpay their workers. And the phenomenon of tipping is completely out of control. Why have people accepted the notion that people in tipped positions are now "owed" 18-20%, when the norm used to be 15%? Why do people feed tip jars when they know the person behind the counter is not being underpaid in anticipation of tips?

Speaking of quaint notions, I thought tipping was optional and discretionary? I guess that went out the window. Now you're considered a scum if you tip less than 18%, even if you're making minimum wage and your waiter is raking in $30 per hour...and why is it that a waiter in an expensive restaurant should be tipped 18% based on the inflated price for the meal? They don't work harder than the waiter at Denny's, but they're really entitled to make 3-5 times more?

Generous tippers don't seem to have an understanding of basic arithmetic. At Disney, we know that the prices on the menu are particularly inflated, with a huge mark up. Tipping a reasonable amount, instead of the "obligatory" 18%, makes a lot more sense. If a waiter serves just one $100 meal to a table that dutifully pays 18-20% in tip, they're already doing better than a CM (and, given Disney's prices, $100 is a very conservative estimate). And in a busy place like WDW, it's a given that the tables will usually be full.

With all due respect, I have a pretty good grasp of basic math. I know that when I tip the server 18 to 20%, the server is sharing that money with the bus people, the bar tenders and the runners. The server probably has that amount already split and has no discretions as to how it is allocated. My DS was a server in FL and that was how it worked.

Now here is a little tidbit to ponder. Right now YOU have a choice about the amount of gratuity you give the server, well unless your party size is such that the restaurant adds an auto tip on the bill. Your server is not making minimum wage, so if in MA, where I run payroll, a server makes 2.35 per hour, the tips are counted to be sure that server at least makes a minimum wage. If not, the employer is responsible for making up the difference. This is the law.

I rather doubt that many employers could entice top notch servers for minimum wage, so I bet that cost would rise. And you and I will still pay...but we will have no choice in terms of the cost per item. Your $35 steak will rise dramatically, as will the price of every item on the menu. And your will not have recourse if you are not happy with the level of service, not unless the manager decides to reduce your meal costs.

 

[Eoghann]

With all due respect, I have a pretty good grasp of basic math. I know that when I tip the server 18 to 20%, the server is sharing that money with the bus people, the bar tenders and the runners. The server probably has that amount already split and has no discretions as to how it is allocated. My DS was a server in FL and that was how it worked.

Now here is a little tidbit to ponder. Right now YOU have a choice about the amount of gratuity you give the server, well unless your party size is such that the restaurant adds an auto tip on the bill. Your server is not making minimum wage, so if in MA, where I run payroll, a server makes 2.35 per hour, the tips are counted to be sure that server at least makes a minimum wage. If not, the employer is responsible for making up the difference. This is the law.

I rather doubt that many employers could entice top notch servers for minimum wage, so I bet that cost would rise. And you and I will still pay...but we will have no choice in terms of the cost per item. Your $35 steak will rise dramatically, as will the price of every item on the menu. And your will not have recourse if you are not happy with the level of service, not unless the manager decides to reduce your meal costs.

So how would you feel if the same system was applied to car dealers? Surgeons? We care about service there too don't we?

The system isn't actually about ensuring good service at all, it's a giant con, just like "resort fees" or airline fees (which now have to be shown up front) which people are so up in arms about. It's a way to disguise the real cost and make it seem cheaper than it is. That $35 steak never did cost $35.

 

[skier_pete]

I despise tipping as a system and have this quaint notion that companies who hire people should be paying them a reasonable wage in the first place, not relying on customers to subsidize just so they can pretend costs are lower than they really are. That said, recognizing how low the hourly wages can be for servers, tipping is pretty much essential.

I will note though that other countries, particularly European ones don't do tipping on a regular basis so visitors may be genuinely unaware of the expectation.

Again the answer as far as I'm concerned, is pay people properly in the first place.

Just want to mention in 2012 we went to Australia for 2 weeks. While visiting ex-pat friends there, they went off on a rant about how terrible the american system is and how that just paying waitresses a living wage made for a better system.

After 3 weeks there I couldn't agree with them (or you) less. Our experience was:
1) Restaurants were extraordinarily expensive. Some of this is exchange rate I understand, but overall eating a meal in Australia was twice the cost it was here - and rarely was the food as good.
2) Low to mid range restaurants in the areas we went get away with not paying servers by not HAVING servers. Many restaurants had someone come and take your order, and then you got a number, and when your food was ready, they called your number and got your own food. Others didn't even have this - you go to a counter to order. In addition, all the food didn't come out at the same time, so you would often have one person served and the last person would wait 20 minutes for their meal. This was just about the worst in my view - when I am eating out, I want all my food coming out together.
3) When there were wait-staff, the service was mostly terrible. Waitstaff would disappear for 20-30 minutes at a time, and in general you couldn't get help when you wanted it.

If our experience is what tip-less dining means, please I will 100% stick with what we got and give the wait-staff their 18%. We couldn't wait to get back to the US and get decent service and dining options again.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Hear, hear! Tipping is a crutch for companies, so that they can underpay their workers. And the phenomenon of tipping is completely out of control. Why have people accepted the notion that people in tipped positions are now "owed" 18-20%, when the norm used to be 15%? Why do people feed tip jars when they know the person behind the counter is not being underpaid in anticipation of tips?

Speaking of quaint notions, I thought tipping was optional and discretionary? I guess that went out the window. Now you're considered a scum if you tip less than 18%, even if you're making minimum wage and your waiter is raking in $30 per hour...and why is it that a waiter in an expensive restaurant should be tipped 18% based on the inflated price for the meal? They don't work harder than the waiter at Denny's, but they're really entitled to make 3-5 times more?

Generous tippers don't seem to have an understanding of basic arithmetic. At Disney, we know that the prices on the menu are particularly inflated, with a huge mark up. Tipping a reasonable amount, instead of the "obligatory" 18%, makes a lot more sense. If a waiter serves just one $100 meal to a table that dutifully pays 18-20% in tip, they're already doing better than a CM (and, given Disney's prices, $100 is a very conservative estimate). And in a busy place like WDW, it's a given that the tables will usually be full.

So you're basically saying you're willing to pay Disney - a "souless, capricious company " (roy e Disneys words - not mine) - their ransom prices but draw the line against their large, moslty unskilled workforce?

That just seems backwards. The rising costs at wdw have little to do with rising employee costs - you want proof?

Because they don't even bother whining about it anymore. It's just cranking prices to feed stocks and other ventures...

I do agree that tipping is a system that is out of whack and needs to go away...as when the prices rise the employer provides a "benefit" to the tipped workers that they have no responsibility to provide...they just keep their extra revenue free and clear.

 

[Nancyg56]

Just want to mention in 2012 we went to Australia for 2 weeks. While visiting ex-pat friends there, they went off on a rant about how terrible the american system is and how that just paying waitresses a living wage made for a better system.

After 3 weeks there I couldn't agree with them (or you) less. Our experience was:
1) Restaurants were extraordinarily expensive. Some of this is exchange rate I understand, but overall eating a meal in Australia was twice the cost it was here - and rarely was the food as good.
2) Low to mid range restaurants in the areas we went get away with not paying servers by not HAVING servers. Many restaurants had someone come and take your order, and then you got a number, and when your food was ready, they called your number and got your own food. Others didn't even have this - you go to a counter to order. In addition, all the food didn't come out at the same time, so you would often have one person served and the last person would wait 20 minutes for their meal. This was just about the worst in my view - when I am eating out, I want all my food coming out together.
3) When there were wait-staff, the service was mostly terrible. Waitstaff would disappear for 20-30 minutes at a time, and in general you couldn't get help when you wanted it.

If our experience is what tip-less dining means, please I will 100% stick with what we got and give the wait-staff their 18%. We couldn't wait to get back to the US and get decent service and dining options again.

IIRC, many years ago there was a group of restaurants in CA that tried to do away with tipping. It was a disaster.

 

[jade1]

Just want to mention in 2012 we went to Australia for 2 weeks. While visiting ex-pat friends there, they went off on a rant about how terrible the american system is and how that just paying waitresses a living wage made for a better system.

After 3 weeks there I couldn't agree with them (or you) less. Our experience was:
1) Restaurants were extraordinarily expensive. Some of this is exchange rate I understand, but overall eating a meal in Australia was twice the cost it was here - and rarely was the food as good.
2) Low to mid range restaurants in the areas we went get away with not paying servers by not HAVING servers. Many restaurants had someone come and take your order, and then you got a number, and when your food was ready, they called your number and got your own food. Others didn't even have this - you go to a counter to order. In addition, all the food didn't come out at the same time, so you would often have one person served and the last person would wait 20 minutes for their meal. This was just about the worst in my view - when I am eating out, I want all my food coming out together.
3) When there were wait-staff, the service was mostly terrible. Waitstaff would disappear for 20-30 minutes at a time, and in general you couldn't get help when you wanted it.

If our experience is what tip-less dining means, please I will 100% stick with what we got and give the wait-staff their 18%. We couldn't wait to get back to the US and get decent service and dining options again.

I have no problem just paying the servers $80K and no tips (earlier numbers on this thread), although many/most would be replaced with the best applying (many from around the country) but the service would be excellent IMO.

That said, its not my business, so I will gladly continue to tip very heavily-esp for exceptional service.

However-our Australia trip was exactly as you described.

Edit

Found a pic of our most expensive meal. It was right on Sydney Harbor across from the O House so partly to blame. But it was higher than Yachtsman or Shula's and you can see it was not super impressive. It was tasty though.

 

[Nancyg56]

So how would you feel if the same system was applied to car dealers? Surgeons? We care about service there too don't we?

The system isn't actually about ensuring good service at all, it's a giant con, just like "resort fees" or airline fees (which now have to be shown up front) which people are so up in arms about. It's a way to disguise the real cost and make it seem cheaper than it is. That $35 steak never did cost $35.

I never said I thought that this system is the best answer, although I must say that I much prefer to control my costs in terms of servers. I am a generous tipper and base the % on the quality of service I receive.

We actually do have a huge upcharge on surgeons, and I am very glad for that. WE may not refer to it as a gratuity , but that cost is not consistent across the board. My DH had brain surgery recently and I was not at all unhappy to be paying that bill the surgeon sent. No issues for me, and I sure do not want to price shop them.

I am not trying to change your mind. You get to think the way that you think. I just believe that while you are able to hold to your beliefs. you probably should not tell those of us who do understand how it works and can use math that because we are okay with the present system we have no idea how to apply the math,

 

[Davey Jones II]

So you're basically saying you're willing to pay Disney - a "souless, capricious company " (roy o Disneys words - not mine) - their ransom prices but draw the line against their large, moslty unskilled workforce?

That just seems backwards. The rising costs at wdw have little to do with rising employee costs - you want proof?

Because they don't even bother whining about it anymore. It's just cranking prices to feed stocks and other ventures...

I do agree that tipping is a system that is out of whack and needs to go away...as when they prices rise the employer provides a "benefit" to the tipped workers that they have no responsibility to provide...they just keep their extra revenue free and clear.

We mostly eat counter service, plus snacks we bring into the parks. We certainly can't afford Disney's high prices for table service restaurants, plus tips. We draw a line by spending less, and extracting the most value that we can from our vacations. And this year, we will probably not go to Disney at all.

Disney could certainly afford to pay all their employees properly, without the whole system being subsidized by tipping. Lots of enterprises could. Tipping certainly is a giant con, but it's become so institutionalized that people just passively accept it. Sometimes companies and restaurants are the big beneficiaries, and other times, waiters make 80K (okay, that doesn't happen at Disney...anymore. Or much).

In any case, the consumer is the one who gets screwed, as usual. Is there any evidence that businesses pass on the cost savings to consumers??

 

[Eoghann]

I never said I thought that this system is the best answer, although I must say that I much prefer to control my costs in terms of servers. I am a generous tipper and base the % on the quality of service I receive.

We actually do have a huge upcharge on surgeons, and I am very glad for that. WE may not refer to it as a gratuity , but that cost is not consistent across the board. My DH had brain surgery recently and I was not at all unhappy to be paying that bill the surgeon sent. No issues for me, and I sure do not want to price shop them.

I am not trying to change your mind. You get to think the way that you think. I just believe that while you are able to hold to your beliefs. you probably should not tell those of us who do understand how it works and can use math that because we are okay with the present system we have no idea how to apply the math,

On no occasion did I ever reference your (or indeed any other individual's) mathematical abilities.

It is never the less a con and it is used to lower the visible pricing because a substantial majority of people don't factor in tips until the end of the meal. That's how cons work. They don't fool everyone, they fool enough people.

 

[snayak]

IIRC, many years ago there was a group of restaurants in CA that tried to do away with tipping. It was a disaster.

So I just listened to a Freakonomics podcast episode where they discussed this.

Apparently its a huge issue, not because of the tips or the minimum wage, but because tips cannot be shared (by law, in NY at least, I believe) between tipped and non-tipped workers (i.e. servers & cooks)

So there is a huge issue staffing the back of the house - everybody wants to work front of house so they can get tips and make a better wage.

They had a NYC restaurateur Danny Meyer talk about how he got rid of tipping at one of his places and did some profit share thing for the servers and gave back of house a 20% raise and it seems to be working. Prices for the customers were roughly equal.

Anyway, super interesting listen - I dislike tipping, only because I feel I'm not rewarding everybody for a good meal (which would be the server and cooks, perhaps the bartender or som who likely do get a percentage) - the front of house reaps all the benefits.

As an aside, I feel it should at least be disclosed to customers if state law mandates the full minimum wage before tips - that may not affect how much I tip, but its nice to know they're already making full wage before tips.

 

[beer dave]

With all due respect, I have a pretty good grasp of basic math. I know that when I tip the server 18 to 20%, the server is sharing that money with the bus people, the bar tenders and the runners. The server probably has that amount already split and has no discretions as to how it is allocated. My DS was a server in FL and that was how it worked.

Now here is a little tidbit to ponder. Right now YOU have a choice about the amount of gratuity you give the server, well unless your party size is such that the restaurant adds an auto tip on the bill. Your server is not making minimum wage, so if in MA, where I run payroll, a server makes 2.35 per hour, the tips are counted to be sure that server at least makes a minimum wage. If not, the employer is responsible for making up the difference. This is the law.

I rather doubt that many employers could entice top notch servers for minimum wage, so I bet that cost would rise. And you and I will still pay...but we will have no choice in terms of the cost per item. Your $35 steak will rise dramatically, as will the price of every item on the menu. And your will not have recourse if you are not happy with the level of service, not unless the manager decides to reduce your meal costs.

And, if the tipping to the server is low, they may be out of pocket to pay the tip outs on the other service people, because most of the time the others are payed on a percentage of the bill........ so.....

 

[Meandnevaeh]

How are you getting a $254 value for the deluxe dining plan for 2 adults 2 kids? In my (recent) experience, the food doesn't cost that much even at MK.

It's about $65/day per adult, and almost $40 per child that's $220, not 245, but still a lot of money per day, like everyone is saying, a 15-20% off of a value resort only equates to about a $30 off per night, hence the dining plan is a much bigger savings, and say you go with the room discount, you then still have to fork over money to eat, so dining plan is a much better deal in these situations, it's clear math. But if you have 2 people in a deluxe resort(regular rate over $350/night) at 35% off the savings on a room only discount is $122.50, while the dining plan would be a savings of $130, so still more of a break even point, unless it's one adult and one child, or your deluxe room is one of the even nicer ones like $500-$60 night, which the room discount would be a better discount, but then u still have to pay for meals, even if you do it on the cheap you still have to spend money on food

 

[Meandnevaeh]

So I just listened to a Freakonomics podcast episode where they discussed this.

Apparently its a huge issue, not because of the tips or the minimum wage, but because tips cannot be shared (by law, in NY at least, I believe) between tipped and non-tipped workers (i.e. servers & cooks)

So there is a huge issue staffing the back of the house - everybody wants to work front of house so they can get tips and make a better wage.

They had a NYC restaurateur Danny Meyer talk about how he got rid of tipping at one of his places and did some profit share thing for the servers and gave back of house a 20% raise and it seems to be working. Prices for the customers were roughly equal.

Anyway, super interesting listen - I dislike tipping, only because I feel I'm not rewarding everybody for a good meal (which would be the server and cooks, perhaps the bartender or som who likely do get a percentage) - the front of house reaps all the benefits.

As an aside, I feel it should at least be disclosed to customers if state law mandates the full minimum wage before tips - that may not affect how much I tip, but its nice to know they're already making full wage before tips.

Yes, the guests that regularly tipped 20% are still paying about the same amount, but for the 1000's of people out there that always come up with a reason not to tip are now actually paying more for there meal, those are the people that would have a fit about the raised prices, maybe not true in higher end upper class neighborhoods(because they were tipping to begin with) but regular everyday restaurants would struggle

 

[Arctic Stamp Queen]

I was a server for many years and in my experience a buffet service was much more work than a traditional table service meal.

I am genuinely interested in knowing how those meals are more work as a wait staff. Hubs insists on only tipping 1-2 dollars per person at a buffet. I really want to understand, so I can re-think this.

 

[Nancyg56]

I am genuinely interested in knowing how those meals are more work as a wait staff. Hubs insists on only tipping 1-2 dollars per person at a buffet. I really want to understand, so I can re-think this.

People are often under the impression that they are waiting on themselves during a buffet, but there is a difference between getting your own food, and taking care of your table. Someone still has to be sure your have beverages, and that your table is clean. During a typacal meal the server will take your order and hen depending on how the establishment us, either will bring the beverages, or will have then delivered, Then someone, many times a runner will bring appetizer, bread and salad. Your server will clear and make room for entrees. Runners bring entrees,and the table s cleared again. Dessert and coffee follow. This is if you order full meals. During a buffet, your table mates are up and down multiple times, and your table needs to be cleared. Often. Folks will take advantage of the many items to try, some they eat but a lot is tried and set aside, and you go back for more. You come back and the dirty dishes are gone.

The next buffet you go to, just pay attention to the servers adn how they care for the table. IF your server left the piles of dirty dishes you would notice. I used to crawl home afte our Brunch that we offered on Sunday's.

 

[Jake]

Free dining is not worth it at deluxe, much better off with 20% discount

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Free dining is not worth it at deluxe, much better off with 20% discount

It really depends on the party mix...

A party of 4 usually breaks for the consumer...a party of 2 for the rat

 

[Lee Matthews]

Free dining is not worth it at deluxe, much better off with 20% discount

I think it can be for International guests. We upgraded from Port Orleans Riverside to Old Key West for about $500 and went from QSDP to the regular DDP plan which i thought was good value

 

[akl2004]

My family of four did free dining in Oct of 2014. It was great because we ate a TS everyday and honestly, it was too much food. I did the math versus the room discount at the time and if I recall correctly, the room discount worked out slightly in our favor. But we opted for the free dining because we have never vacationed and not been frugal with eating out. From that standpoint, it was awesome, steak every day. We don't eat like that at home. LOL. Between then and our Dec trip we purchased a DVC contract via resale. When planning our Dec 2015 trip, I seriously considered purchasing the DDP. We opted instead to have groceries delivered to our resort and have 1 reservation a day, paying for that out of pocket. Turns out, we all preferred to eat our "normal food" in the room. We ended up cancelling all but 3 TS reservations and saved ourselves a TON of money. I set aside the money we would have used to pay for the DDP and paid cash for all of our meals, the groceries, snacks, souveniers and managed to bring several hundred dollars home. That was the first time we ever did a vacation within our budget, let alone under budget. Moral of the story, as lockedoutlogic said, is the party has a lot to do with what works. We have done both and both have worked out well for us, but in different ways at different times. And by the way, the 15-20% tips came from the cash originally allocated for the DDP.