I finally saw Fahreinheit 9/11 last night

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Who? What people?

In the prior thread I posted excerpts from three reviews, each of which got the wrong impression. These were major US newspapers; the Washington Post, the SF Chronicle and the Detroit Free Press. And I found those reviews in a few minutes, I didn't have to do any serious digging.

But, truthfully, I think they got exactly the impression Moore intended.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Are you really saying with a straight face that Michael Moore has not been and is not a huge critic of the American capitalist system?

Um, I never addressed that issue. I addressed the fact that you claim he is unpatriotic and does not love his country because of his comments.

Come on, Brenda. Stay on topic.

 

[acepepper]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Same here. I've never been a fan of Michael Moore's, so why in the world would I put money in his pocket? It's what I call my "Michelin Tire Rule".

What's wrong with Michelin Tyres?

 

[BedKnobbery2]

Jenny, I saw it recently as well. I, like many here, am not a fan of Michael Moore but thought it was important to see the film. It made me think about things I hadn't thought about before, and most definitely moved me deeply. It really is an amazing work of film making. I can honestly say that I laughed, I cried, I was on the edge of my seat. I think what I found most poignant were the scenes with the mutilated soldiers; as I stated in another thread, people generally don't even think about the fact that perhaps those most hurt by war are it's survivors. It was truly heart-wrenching to see these young men with no limbs, mutilated faces, destroyed bodies.....I can't remember the last time a movie made me weep as this one did.

I'm glad that not all people who disagree with the views MM puts forth in this film are boycotting it. My best friend's parents, who are conservative republicans, were the first people I knew who saw the film. They've been telling everyone they know that they need to see it, and they've taken a lot of flak for doing so. They disagreed with some of it, but (like most people who've seen the film) they said it has really made them think.

 

[acepepper]

There are many people who refuse to see the film because there are so many truths in it that they cannot bring themselves to face up to.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

ThreeCircles

Can you explain why you might think MM loves this country?

I think he doesn't care about this country. I think he uses this country for his own rewards. I came to this conclusion by the way he talks about the average citizen, how he talks about the US. The US isn't perfect. NO country is perfect. I would not talk BAD about the AVERAGE CITIZEN of the US to another country, if I liked my country. MM has insulted all of us. So I am not paying him my money.

The government of the US is not perfect, but it is the best.

 

[infobahn]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system.

I believe that to be true of G.W.Bush. I don't believe he cares about this country at all, except for what money he can make off of it - killing people along the way is just part of business as ususal to him.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Um, I never addressed that issue.

Um, actually you did when you said that the following was "...nothing but opinion."

Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system.

So, I'll ask again, since you have said the above is "nothing but opinion". Are you really saying with a straight face that Michael Moore has not been and is not a huge critic of the American capitalist system?

Come on, Brenda. Stay on topic.

Come on, ThreeCircles, answer the question. You've stated that what I said was nothing but opinion, and I asked a question related to that statement. Care to answer?

What's wrong with Michelin Tyres?

There's nothing at all wrong with Michelin tires, other than the fact that Michelin is a French owned company. So, rather than give my money to a French company, I choose to give it to an American company. When it's feasible for me to buy spend money on comparable products without sacrificing my beliefs, I do so. And Michael Moore is just another example of that. I have no desire to my money in his pocket, so I don't see his movies.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by infobahn
I believe that to be true of G.W.Bush. I don't believe he cares about this country at all, except for what money he can make off of it - killing people along the way is just part of business as ususal to him.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And your contention that President Bush has made money off this war is backed up by...?

 

[infobahn]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And your contention that President Bush has made money off this war is backed up by...?

fact.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Brenda, Brenda, Brenda...

Really, don't change the subject. If you would rather retract your statement, fine. Bur backtracking away from a statement you made by switching the subject...

You stated that MM didn't love the country because of the things he has said. See:

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Yeah, I've always thought his comments about America committing so many acts of evil and oppression throughout the world demonstrated a real love of this country.

I said:

[Yeah, we all know that wanting to make the United States a better country is real unpatriotic and demonstrates lack of love for one's country!

I suppose those that condemned slavery when it was an institutionalized part of this country really didn't love the United States, huh Brenda?

It has always seemed to me that those that go blindly along with everything that their country is and does are not patriotic but nationalistic.

You reply:

Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system.

Which, as stated already, is nothing but opinon and fails to address your original statement, assertion, and opinion that MM doesn't love the country.

See, it's really pretty simple!

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And your contention that President Bush has made money off this war is backed up by...?

And your contention that MM doesn't love the country is backed up by...?

Oh, yes. We're still waiting on that one!

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by infobahn
fact.

Outstanding!! Let's see some of that "fact". Seriously, I can't wait!

 

[AirForceRocks]

ThreeCircles, you should really change your name to TwistedInCircles, as that's what you attempt to do whenever you're cornered without an answer.

You've copied the posts, and yet you still don't see where you addressed the issue of Michael Moore's hatred of capitalism. How can you possibly say that this:

Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system.

is nothing but opinion when Moore himself is on the record as badmouthing the capitalist system in the U.S.? Are you ready to answer that yet? Or are you going to try to twist some more? Can you say with a straight face that Michael Moore is not a hypocrite when he denigrates the very system that has made him a rich man? If you can't, then your contention that what I said is nothing but opinion is wrong. Not surprising in the least, but wrong nonetheless.

And your contention that MM doesn't love the country is backed up by...?

Read his own words - we've perpetrated more evil than any other country in the world, all Americans are stupid (except for him, apparently), etc. Are these the words of a man that loves and cares about his country? Disagreeing with policies is one thing, but Moore has gone far beyond that.

 

[MJames41]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Does it really matter what it is called? If so, then you will be interested to learn that 9 out of 10 movie reviewers gave this documentary ( their words ) a thumbs up.

Actually, yes it does matter what it is called. Remember the "documentaries" of the 1920's and 1930's in Germany? They were presented as fact, as documentaries, and some believed them. There are some today who would not have a problem believing them. After all, these were also well made for their time.

As for my comments about Michael Moore, except for this latest comment exactly which comment was about the movie? If someone lies to me once, why should I believe him the next time around?

George Stepanopolis (sp) from ABC was interviewing MM one Sunday and was questioning him about his portrayel of the Bin Laden's leaving the country. According to MM, he had it perfect, his version was correct, even though it was disputed by many journalists who researched it, the 9/11 commission, the FBI, Homeland Security, etc., etc. He was right, they were wrong. But, because it is listed as a documentary, do you really think people 5, 10 years from now are going to read the actual documents when they have this movie that says what they want?

Please tell me I'm wrong. Like I was wrong on the debate board thread when I brought up that people would believe the movie over reality regarding Ronald Reagon 10 years from now. I was told that I was being ridiculous, that no one would believe it was real, right? And then, a few weeks ago there was someone here who appeared to be referencing to a comment that was made in the movie that the screenwriter admitted he never said, that his closest friends said he didn't say, etc. as if it had actually happened. Yes, it does matter if it is listed as a documentary.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Brenda...

Here we go again...

The issue that I brought up was the fact that you stated MM does not love this country. Then you attempt to switch the topic to his position on capitalism. See, the two don't relate.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion of how MM feels about this country but it's totally unsurported by anything you've brought into this discussion.

It would seem to be that his voicing of his opinions of what this country has done wrong, who we have harmed, and how we have negatively impacted the world is very patriotic. You seem to think that the United States has never done anything wrong, has never harmed anyone, and has never had a negative impact on the world! If you believe that, I'd love to live in your world!

The fact of the matter remaines that by denying that the United States has made mistakes and has harmed people and nations because of those mistakes means that we want to preserve the status quo (you) and don't want to improve the country through positive changes (not you).

As for your remarks on MM position on capitalism, let me explain again, that was not the point I originally addressed with you.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Let's see...

Definiton of opinion: "a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter; belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge"

Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. Yes, an opinion of Brenda.

His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. Yes, another opinon of Brenda.

And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. Ah ha! Yet another opinion of Brenda!

But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system. Yes, you've got it, another opinion of Brenda!

And what do all of these opinions have in common? Yes, folks, you have it figured out. They lend no support (other than opinion) to Brenda's original assertion that MM hates his country!

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
is nothing but opinion when Moore himself is on the record as badmouthing the capitalist system in the U.S.? Are you ready to answer that yet? Or are you going to try to twist some more?

Brenda! Perhaps you can show me where I stated anything (in support or in opposition) to MM's view of the capitalist system???

And are you suggesting that anyone who disagrees with the capitalist system does not love the United States?

 

[MJames41]

Whether or not someone thinks MM hates his country would also be an opinion, in my opinion.

Personally, I think MM loves his country - because he is able to get really rich telling us how terrible the rich in this country are - except him. His attitude shows a complete disdain for anyone who is not him, at least any of the times I have seen him on TV.

He is very good at what he does, just like Goebles was, doing exactly what Goebles did.

 

[rcyannacci]

Although I'm sure I'll regret this later, I'll take up the issue of MM and capitalism (and hope it won't be seen as too much of an intrusion).

I won't presume to read MM intentions in making F911, but I think it's worth considering that he's motivations might not have been about his own monetary gain (if anyone can provide information or a quote from MM that says he intended from the outset of the film to get rich, then I'll certainly back off).

We are so accustomed to thinking of film as a Hollywood product. Many (if not most) Hollywood movies are being made with the intent of making the maximum amount of money, so they employ well known performers, invent stories that appeal to broad demographics, etc. Everyone is shocked when an independent film succeeds at the box office, and then come up with reasons why it worked...those artists must have "sold out" in their search for a bigger paycheck. Original intentions become suspect as soon as an artist makes some money. Who's ever heard of a rich artist? If they're any good, thier poor and starving.

But filmmaking doesn't always have to be about capitalism. MM uses film as his medium of choice because he knows he will reach the maximum amount of people. Do I think MM is suspect of American capitalism? You bet. This is a film that examines the potential for corruption when government policy follows the lead of big business. Capitalism has a long history of inequality, of destroying the lives and landscapes of some to make way for the good of others. And Americans have benefited from this legacy.

Should MM then not work in a medium that has the potential or earning him money when he knows that it will be the best way to generate interest in his topic? That's actually a really complicated question- if you believe that he shouldn't, that money corrupts, then that in itself is a negative critique of capitalism. If money doesn't corrupt, then good for him.

Some will interpet this disconnect between his political beliefs and his medium of expression as a contradiction. But it could also be interpreted as fighting fire with fire, so to speak. To make an effective statement that points to the negative effects of capitalism he might just have to work within that system.