I finally saw Fahreinheit 9/11 last night

[OceanAnnie]

Originally posted by MJames41
Actually, yes it does matter what it is called. Remember the "documentaries" of the 1920's and 1930's in Germany? They were presented as fact, as documentaries, and some believed them. There are some today who would not have a problem believing them. After all, these were also well made for their time.

As for my comments about Michael Moore, except for this latest comment exactly which comment was about the movie? If someone lies to me once, why should I believe him the next time around?

George Stepanopolis (sp) from ABC was interviewing MM one Sunday and was questioning him about his portrayel of the Bin Laden's leaving the country. According to MM, he had it perfect, his version was correct, even though it was disputed by many journalists who researched it, the 9/11 commission, the FBI, Homeland Security, etc., etc. He was right, they were wrong. But, because it is listed as a documentary, do you really think people 5, 10 years from now are going to read the actual documents when they have this movie that says what they want?

Please tell me I'm wrong. Like I was wrong on the debate board thread when I brought up that people would believe the movie over reality regarding Ronald Reagon 10 years from now. I was told that I was being ridiculous, that no one would believe it was real, right? And then, a few weeks ago there was someone here who appeared to be referencing to a comment that was made in the movie that the screenwriter admitted he never said, that his closest friends said he didn't say, etc. as if it had actually happened. Yes, it does matter if it is listed as a documentary.

ITA!

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
ThreeCircles, you should really change your name to TwistedInCircles, as that's what you attempt to do whenever you're cornered without an answer.

 

[jennyanydots]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And your contention that President Bush has made money off this war is backed up by...?

isn't there a natural gas pipeline being built in Afghanistan right now? by a company whose former employee is now Afghanistan's Prime Minister? and the Bush family has investments int hat company...

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
isn't there a natural gas pipeline being built in Afghanistan right now? by a company whose former employee is now Afghanistan's Prime Minister? and the Bush family has investments int hat company...

Actually, no. And have we now switched from the war in Iraq being for profit to the war in Afghanistan being for profit? The war that was sanctioned not only by Congress but by the UN?

But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system. Yes, you've got it, another opinion of Brenda!

Hmmm...so someone that decries something (capitalism) while at the same time benefits from it isn't a hypocrite? Perhaps you should pull out a dictionary. Not an opinion at all.

And are you suggesting that anyone who disagrees with the capitalist system does not love the United States?

The United States was built on the capitalist system, and is extremely successful because of it. So yes, I believe that anyone that is trying to topple the capitalist system is against America.

Should MM then not work in a medium that has the potential or earning him money when he knows that it will be the best way to generate interest in his topic? That's actually a really complicated question- if you believe that he shouldn't, that money corrupts, then that in itself is a negative critique of capitalism. If money doesn't corrupt, then good for him.

There is absolutely no reason why Michael Moore shouldn't make his movies. But if he is as opposed to the capitalist system as he claims to be, why is taking any money from the movie? If it's all about getting out the message, he could do that without accepting the money, could he not?

As I said before, I have no problem with him making all the money he wants. I just find it to be the height of hypocrisy to decry capitalism while at the same time cashing the very checks and enjoying the fruits of the system.

 

[jennyanydots]

Unocal

unocal and the Taliban

more on the subject
additional info

interesting isn't it?

 

[AirForceRocks]

interesting isn't it?

Yes, it is. Of course the most recent article you linked to is more than 2 years old. You might to read something a bit more recent.

June, 2004:

Afghanistan as an Energy Transit Route

Due to its location between the oil and natural gas reserves of the Caspian Basin and the Indian Ocean, Afghanistan has long been mentioned as a potential pipeline route, though in the near term, several obstacles will likely prevent Afghanistan from becoming an energy transit corridor. During the mid-1990s, Unocal had pursued a possible natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan's Dauletabad-Donmez gas basin via Afghanistan to Pakistan, but pulled out after the U.S. missile strikes against Afghanistan in August 1998. The Afghan government under President Karzai has tried to revive the Trans-Afghan Pipeline (TAP) plan, with periodic talks held between the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Turkmenistan on the issue, but little progress appears to have been made as of early June 2004 (despite the signature on December 9, 2003, of a protocol on the pipeline by the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkmenistan). President Karzai has stated his belief that the project could generate $100-$300 million per year in transit fees for Afghanistan, while creating thousands of jobs in the country.

Given the obstacles to development of a natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan, it seems unlikely that such an idea will make any progress in the near future, and no major Western companies have expressed interest in reviving the project. The security situation in Afghanistan remains an obvious problem, while tensions between India and Pakistan make it unlikely that such a pipeline could be extended into India and its large (and growing) gas market. Financial problems in the utility sector in India, which would be the major consumer of the natural gas, also could pose a problem for construction of the TAP line. Finally, the pipeline's $2.5-$3.5 billion estimated cost poses a significant obstacle to its construction.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html

So in answer to your question

isn't there a natural gas pipeline being built in Afghanistan right now? by a company whose former employee is now Afghanistan's Prime Minister? and the Bush family has investments int hat company...

No, there isn't a natural gas pipeline being built in Afghanistan right now. Not by a company whose former employee is now Afghanistan's Prime Minister, or by a company in which the Bush family has investments, or by any other company for that matter.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
The United States was built on the capitalist system, and is extremely successful because of it. So yes, I believe that anyone that is trying to topple the capitalist system is against America.

The U.S. was founded on capitalism?! Wowzers!

I had no idea the pilgrims were running from England so that they could embrace capitalism!



And we're still waiting on that proof that MM hates his country...

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles


The U.S. was founded on capitalism?! Wowzers!

I had no idea the pilgrims were running from England so that they could embrace capitalism!



And we're still waiting on that proof that MM hates his country...

You're a real riot tonight TwistedInCircles...care to answer the question that I've asked, what, three times now? Is it or is it not a fact that Michael Moore has decried capitalism while at the same time benefiting from it?

Also, could you please point out to me where I said the country was founded on capitalism? I said it was built on capitalism, which it was. Or do you believe that the Founders were socialists?

I've already told you why I believe that Michael Moore hates his country. Are you having a hard time reading tonight?

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Also, could you please point out to me where I said the country was founded on capitalism? I said it was built on capitalism, which it was. Or do you believe that the Founders were socialists?

I've already told you why I believe that Michael Moore hates his country. Are you having a hard time reading tonight?

Founded... built... It seems you resort to semantics whenever you cannon back up the ideas you put forth. (Which is more often than not! )

In regards to MM "hating" his country, you've given nothing but your opinion. That's far from fact! While one's opinion may be enough to justify a war in which thousands have died for the administration you support, it fails in regards to this discussion. Just because Brenda feels that MM hates his country does not make it so. (Welcome to the real world! )

It seems that anyone who disagrees with Brenda is soon labeled as anti-American and anti-U.S. Hmmm... Oddly enough that sounds quite familiar for one who supports the shurb administration! I wonder if this is what the founders had in mind when they spoke of the great society... Doubt it!

Wait... Where's the proof that MM hates his country... I'm sure it's coming Brenda and we're all waiting!

 

[AirForceRocks]

In regards to MM "hating" his country, you've given nothing but your opinion. That's far from fact!

Yep, and I stated it as such. Would you like to see it again?

ITA on all counts, and my opinion of Michael Moore's "love of country" has nothing whatsoever to do with his opposition to President Bush or his opposition to the war. It does however have everything to do with statements he has made about this country, about how stupid Americans are, about how we've created more misery in the world than any other nation on Earth, etc.

It seems that anyone who disagrees with Brenda is soon labeled as anti-American and anti-U.S.

Really? Would you care to point out where I've said that about anyone other than Michael Moore?

And while you're at it would, are you ready to answer the question I've asked four times now? You remember, right? The one about Michael Moore being a hypocrite?

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Yep, and I stated it as such. Would you like to see it again?





Really? Would you care to point out where I've said that about anyone other than Michael Moore?

And while you're at it would, are you ready to answer the question I've asked four times now? You remember, right? The one about Michael Moore being a hypocrite?

Ahhh... Yet another attempt to change the subject!

 

[ThreeCircles]

Still waiting on that proof that MM hates his country Brenda...

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Ahhh... Yet another attempt to change the subject!

Feeling the pressure from all of the twisting?

Let's see the progression here...

I state my opinion and why I have that opinion.

You ask for me to back up what (you claim) I stated as fact.

I point out that I didn't state it as fact, but rather as opinion.

You say I'm changing the subject.

You're losing it TC, but keep trying to get it together. It's quite entertaining!

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Still waiting on that proof that MM hates his country Brenda...

I've stated repeatedly why I think (that's what an opinion is) he hates his country. Would you like for me to copy and paste them all in one post so that you can re-read them?

 

[ThreeCircles]

Ah! We finally agree! You've posted nothing more than unfounded opinions!

That's all I asked for!

 

[kaekae]

Right on AirforceRocks! I agree with all that you have said. Sometimes people are so bull headed they fail to see the correct answer even though it's there right in front of them, it's sad
but true.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Feeling the pressure from all of the twisting?

Let's see the progression here...

Your twisting, you mean? Not at all!

You see, you have offered nothing to this debate but unfounded accusations. You calim they're nothing but your misguided opinions after the fact because you provide no substantial proof to back them up.

Must be an air force technique!

 

[grinningghost]

I saw it last night for the first time. I consider myself to be moderately conservative and I enjoyed the film. It does make you think. In order to make informed decisions, you really need to listen to all sides.

 

[jennyanydots]

Usually you're better at supporting your opinions, Brenda. You haven't given us anything factual to support your opinions here.

I'm glad you liked the film, grinningghost. you have to admit, it's an incredible bit of filmmaking. when he presneted the WTC destrcution sequences, it was so understated. and yet I sat in the theater biting my fist to keep from crying.

 

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
Usually you're better at supporting your opinions, Brenda. You haven't given us anything factual to support your opinions here.

I'm glad you liked the film, grinningghost. you have to admit, it's an incredible bit of filmmaking. when he presneted the WTC destrcution sequences, it was so understated. and yet I sat in the theater biting my fist to keep from crying.

What I found interesting was the information on the Saudis. I now have a better handle on WHY they are such good friends of ours.

 

[jennyanydots]

the information on the Saudis didn't shock me.

do you remember a film in the mid 1980's, it was called "Rollover"? Jane Fonda and ...I think it was Kris Kristoferson.

the premise was that the Saudis pulled all of their money invested in American stocks and created an economic collapse in the US.

fiction, of course, but based on the extent of Saudi investment at that time.

(BTW, the scenes where Fonda goes to Saudi Arabia were actually filmed in Albany, NY -- some in the Legislative Office Building adjacent to the NY State Capital, and others on the campus of the State University of NY at Albany.)

so the info Moore presents on the Saudis did not surprise me in the least.