I am beginning to lose hope...

[Tarheel girl 1975]

Worked that way with the old system as well. If you had 5 people and they only had 3 FP's left you were out of luck then too. Disclaimer... the numbers I just used were made up. I am not sure if it makes any difference if it's for 5 people or 12. It's just that when they are out they are out, be it one or a thousand.

No, unless you were pulling the absolute last FP of the day, it didn't work the same way. With FP+, the kiosk only looks for a group of 4 FP slots for exactly the same time window. If it can't find 4, it will not show me that attraction as an option at all. Now if I split my group up and look for 2 sets of 2, I might find that I can get one set for 1:15-2:15 and one set from 1:30-2:30. I don't find FP+ as transparent as legacy FP.

 

[MrInfinity]

There are still a lot of clueless guests. I saw them in line at the kiosks.
Yes, Disney spams you with reminders, but only if you purchase tickets ahead of time and register on MDE. But what about all of the guests who purchase tickets on their arrival day?

Okay, well, appreciate them! Cuz the few clueless guests that remain are an opportunity for you (and me) to get more while they stand in line, just like we were happy they did back under FP-. You of all people should be out here on the Dis, WITH ME, trying to figure out how to use this new system to successful effect, not complaining about guests who don't know that are waiting in line.

I don't understand your point. Do you want all guests to be happy and get a fair share, or were you actually happier to have other guests waiting in lines while you found a better way?

One time you argue that FP+ sucks cuz it helps other guest get on more and does not help you get a competitive edge over the masses like FP- did.
Next time you argue that FP+ sucks cuz some guests didn't know how to use it. Which -- if they did, would see even less available for you.

I don't know what your ideal system is. I know what Disney's ideal system is. I think you and I should have similar goals... yet it seems we are at such odds.

My goal is to: Figure out how to use FP+ to get in as much awesomeness on my 2-year vacation at the most magical of vacation places in the world, especially while my kids are young. I get 0 benefit from complaining about what once was. It was great, awesome times, fastpass runner here, been there done that, loved it, it's history. I get why Disney did this, even tho the old system was easier to take advantage of. I'm going back in December, and I'm going to find a way to be a step ahead of the crowds, like I always do. What is so wrong in that? Should we just sit here and complain instead?

 

[Silock]

Does it matter? Disney believes they will make more money by getting all guests quickly onto 3 rides. Even tho some used to do 12 and others none. Even tho I was one of the few who used FP- well, I am trying to look beyond that in my analysis of FP+ as a system, to nod that yes, I see why Disney does this. It is not to "hose" the one guest who used FP- well, but to get 5 others to be happier, ride a few rides, and get back to swimming, eating and spending. Even tho the 1 hates it and does not swim or spend but spends his day disgruntled on the web. 5 other guests experience were made better, and Disney made more money from the combination of the 6.

I don't know if those numbers are accurate.

People will go to Disney whether they like FP+ or not. They were coming before and they'll be coming after it's passed on.

 

[BradChristian]

Soarin is in desperate need of an update- we haven't even bothered riding it the last couple of trips. An update and a 3rd screen would be nice. No matter one's opinion on Frozen coming to Epcot, I look for that to draw a huge crowd for a while at least- who can predict when and if that particular craze will slow down.

Considering the lines for Soarin' in EPCOT... seems everybody is happy with it. However - the long lines maybe be the lack of headliners in EPCOT.

 

[BradChristian]

With the implementation the way it is, it heavily gives an advantage to WDW

• They can provide good service around your first 3 attractions (albeit with tiering, and running out of popular attractions)
• They get strong analytics around your visit ahead of time - this helps with staffing, transportation, etc.
• They can 'manage' the crowds. By limiting FP+ availability, they can drive you where 'they' want you to be
• Any problems with scheduling FP+ are 'ahead-of-time' of your trip, and less time-sensitive. 4th FP+ are at a kiosk where there is a CM to assist.

Yes! I've noticed more changes in park hours... They scaled March 1st back to an 11pm closing, and considering the FPs I got 30 days out... I can see why!

 

[cakebaker]

Considering the lines for Soarin' in EPCOT... seems everybody is happy with it. However - the long lines maybe be the lack of headliners in EPCOT.

I'm surprised I'd get a response arguing that Soarin' doesn't need an update. Thankfully, WDW thinks so and has plans to do so.

 

[cakebaker]

Here's what I don't get and never will. Ever since the implementation of fp+, a recurring complaint I read is that it requires too much planning and it kills spontaneity.

Since when has a WDW vacation ever been one that could be done without heavy planning? One of the tenets of having a successful vacation at WDW has always been- plan, plan, and then plan more. For veterans, it does get to a point where you know the ropes and it's easier, but for a newbie- if you just walk up to the gates, buy a ticket and walk in with no previous planning- your trip is probably not going to be great and you'll probably end up not liking WDW very much. This has been true since day 1.

We've had to plan adr's in advance for a long time. Reservations- especially if you're staying onsite, have to be made pretty far in advance. Special ticket events- OMG, best get those bought the second they become available. SWW fan? Good heavens, they start planning their days the day the current one ends plotting strategies and what if's. I'm already seeing posts about MVMCP and the F&W festival! WDW is extremely popular. If you want to go and enjoy it to it's fullest, you better plan. Nothing new here.

So the idea that somehow, because now you get the opportunity to sync your ride options with all these other activities you planned ahead for, the spontaneity is gone, always puzzles me.

I fully understand the frustration of those who knew legacy fp inside and out- who loved to re-ride certain rides many times a day. We've been known to do it ourselves a few times. It was a fun thing to do and they want it back. But other than those rare times when the park isn't crowded and you get to ride, get off and ride again...it's gone and it's not coming back. You can still visit WDW with no planning at all and your trip will probably be just as successful as it would've been had you done that under legacy fp, because with no planning you wouldn't have known what that was or how to use it either.

And that's my rant for the day. Thanks, I feel better now.

 

[grimley1968]

Build more rides.

That is at the heart of all of this. If Disney built more attractions, no ride-rationing system would be needed.

 

[flicx]

Fastpass plus makes money? Really? Wow!! Come on. It is a huge money suck. Had Disney spent a fraction of what they spent advertising plus on legacy everyone would know about it too! Disney is invested heavily in this mess now, unfortunately so much so that there is no turning back.

 

[flicx]

Well then it's good I didn't say that. I said FP+ makes money, FP- did not. So although FP+ costs more than FP- did up front, over the long run, FP+ will make back that and more money for Disney World. It is a capital expenditure. That is it is an asset the company is investing in, which will produce more revenue down the road than it costs now.

More speculation you are trying to pass off as fact. Will it make more money? Will it ultimately cost them more money? Who knows. Your guessing just like your guessing about satisfaction numbers. We all know different sources have shown different things about that too.

 

[Cormoran]

FP+ is a profitable system. FP- made nothing, but cost a lot. .

I disagree with this whole statement. You have no proof either way on FP+ being profitable, nor do you have any proof about what legacy cost.

Alright, so do you want reasons why it's maybe good to have it at midnight?

A) Midnight "just makes sense". When you say you can book Fast Passes online up to 60 days before your arrival date, you do not have to preface that with "at 8am". It's just "the date" and not a time on that date.

B) FastPass is done online, not via a CM. So unlike ADRs, there is no need to do this during business hours.

C) Because FastPass is a computer system, a natural goal is to load balance. If you make it 8am, a larger percentage of guests will get on right at 8am than will if you spread this out between 12 midnight and 8am.

D) 12 midnight is not really all that inconvenient. It's 11 where I live, and 9 in California.

E) For me selfishly, I kind of like it being at 12am, because I know not as many guests will get on right then to book theirs. Thus by me learning out here on the Dis a way to use FP+ better than everyone else, I know to go on at midnight.

F) It doesn't really matter. There is plenty of availability all throughout the month. The key is just to pick them sometime between 30 and 60 days, so you get your "Resort perk".



Well then it's good I didn't say that. I said FP+ makes money, FP- did not. So although FP+ costs more than FP- did up front, over the long run, FP+ will make back that and more money for Disney World. It is a capital expenditure. That is it is an asset the company is investing in, which will produce more revenue down the road than it costs now.

No you did not say " FP+ makes money, FP-did not." You said FP-cost a lot of money! You don't know whether FP+ will end up being profitable for the company, nor does anyone else. In 5 years, maybe you will be right. But don't you think it's just speculation?

You still avoid addressing the question. Other venues such as ticketmaster allow people to buy tickets for popular concerts starting at 10am EST. Why can't Disney do the same thing? There is not plenty of availability for Anna and Elsa, 7DMT, or TSMM Throughout the month. But again, you defend the inconvenience that Disney has imposed. I just don't understand your defense of an absurd policy. Customer service is no longer a priority.

 

[Hokie2000]

Fastpass plus makes money? Really? Wow!! Come on. It is a huge money suck. Had Disney spent a fraction of what they spent advertising plus on legacy everyone would know about it too! Disney is invested heavily in this mess now, unfortunately so much so that there is no turning back.

I'm not going to try to say that FP+ makes money, because I have no way to know for sure.

However, aren't they advertising MM+ as a whole, with FP+ as a component? Most of the marketing I've seen has been more focused on the Magicbands. Once you book your trip they feature FP+ in the booklets they send out, but haven't they always sent out print media after booking? I have always been impressed with their marketing, I can't begin to imagine the kind of budget it takes, but does anyone know for sure how much more FP+ is costing in that department?

I guess since they have added it to ads where they hardly ever talked about FP- it has had an impact, but in the larger context of MM+ I wonder if the impact is significant.

 

[Cormoran]

Back in the 2006-2009 range I used to be in a group that did surveys for WDW. There were surveys on FP changes, what about web/mobile, would we like it, would we use it, etc., etc., etc. I had a preview into some of the ideas they were considering before the major MDE implementation.

What is surprising to me now is how extensive they made the change: in other words, they didn't just create an 'automated FP system', but rather they created an entirely new MDE process that accounts for your hotel experience, your park entrance experience, store payment experience, dining payment experience, FP experience, and I'm sure I have missed a few things.

The cost to implement these changes were significant, obviously. And the cost to change or maintain them is also significant.

I also work as a solution architect for a very large corporation. I would be the lead technical person responsible for overseeing the design, solution and implementation of a system like MDE - I am not in the theme-park industry, but I do work with business & technical teams to solve big problems.

I would expect the limitations around changes to be:

1) physical limitations - i.e. capacity restrictions on rides, numbers of guests
2) network accessibility - granting tens of thousands high quality wi-fi is very difficult.
3) support concerns - supporting technical systems is costly and challenging

• Believe me, whether to grant 3 FP or 4 initially is not a technical issue. It is a limitation elsewhere (#1)
• Adding a 4th or 5th via mobile app is probably related to #2 & #3 - it's just easier for them to have kiosks than 20K+ entry points
• It would create a nightmare for them to have to support tens of thousands of people, many of which may have complaints and don't know how to connect to a network to the wi-fi networks. What do you do if you can't get it to work? You call somebody, and now they are dealing with problems they don't want and are time-sensitive.

I think the FP+ system component is more complex than people think too. Our recent visit uncovered some surprising things:

1) There are different types/buckets of FP that can be allocated:

• Inventory (the ones we pick from)
• Non-Inventory (the ones Guest-Relations can provide because of issues, etc.)

2) When attractions are down during the FP timespan, new rules seem to be assigned to the FP

• You can use your FP at another attraction
• You can use your FP later in the day

3) The ride / line operator have great influence over the process

• They have an 'app' on a nearby tablet/iPad which gives them statistics to make decisions: how many SB vs. FP+ to let into the ride loading area
• They will grant people access who do not have a FP (some in the group did not have valid FP but were let in - we saw this a lot last week)
• They can speed-up / slow-down the loading process & attraction speed significantly

The point is, the system must account for a lot of factors which are continually influenced, in real-time, by changing conditions. So at the end of the day, they are probably not willing to have you 'over-plan' your trip - because it could fall apart really easily.

Real-life example: The day before I recently left for WDW - all of my FP+ reservations were gone. They were mistakenly deleted, not by me, but somehow were lost. It took me 1 hr 40 min on the phone w/ Guest Relations for them to help me reschedule my FP+ selections. There is a cost for WDW to too heavily rely on this process. If all rides have to go through MDE, then there is a very high cost to making that happen. It is always easiest and less-expensive to have people simple do SB lines. They cannot afford to help too many people with 'technical issues'

With the implementation the way it is, it heavily gives an advantage to WDW

• They can provide good service around your first 3 attractions (albeit with tiering, and running out of popular attractions)
• They get strong analytics around your visit ahead of time - this helps with staffing, transportation, etc.
• They can 'manage' the crowds. By limiting FP+ availability, they can drive you where 'they' want you to be
• Any problems with scheduling FP+ are 'ahead-of-time' of your trip, and less time-sensitive. 4th FP+ are at a kiosk where there is a CM to assist.

I think we can expect small, incremental changes. Not significant, major retooling of the process or rules they are using today.

Just my thoughts.

I'm sorry, do you have a source for this statement?

What was the cost of paper/ink at the old kiosks? How much money did it take to maintain the old kiosks vs. the new ones? How much are they spending in IT for FP+ specifically? (Not MM+ items unrelated to FP+) How much more are they paying people to man the FP+ kiosks?

These are all questions that I would love to find the answers to, just b/c it would be really interesting to know. I find the whole thing pretty fascinating!

Sorry , Im trying to get used to the boards and sometimes I hit a button prematurely. Here you go on the IT stuff I was referring to. Now FP+ requires IT support fro the time you make your FP+ reservations 60 days out. The old kiosks had one person manning the kiosks for each FP ride. Now each Kiosk area has several support people armed with pads.
I can't tell you about how much the ink and paper in the legacy machines cost, but I think Disney's biggest expense is their employees. Just like every other large company. So now that there are more employees stationed at all of these kiosks and at the rides, I would imagine it's costing a lot more than ink and paper.

 

[flicx]

Customer service is no longer a priority.

Sad sobering but in my opinion true!

 

[jeffbear]

Fastpass plus makes money? Really? Wow!! Come on. It is a huge money suck. Had Disney spent a fraction of what they spent advertising plus on legacy everyone would know about it too! Disney is invested heavily in this mess now, unfortunately so much so that there is no turning back.

I would propose that once they invested in the final design and rollout of the new system, there was really no turning back.

Nor do I really think Disney wants to turn back. And I'm not at all convinced of how many of their customers really want to go back to the old days either. I've seen polls in various settings that all look a lot like the ones here. And those are people that are pretty well invested in the process. When I talk to people who are new to the whole thing, they generally roll with it. I think it's easy to lose focus of just how many of the parks' customers honestly have no clue of any other this stuff until they show up to purchase a trip ... or sometimes show up at the front gate.

 

[Hokie2000]

Sorry Fuzzy, but this is the stupid statement:
I don't think anyone ever spent 1 hour and 40 minutes on the phone with the Disney IT department because there paper FP's were lost. They're doing that now! FP+ is costing Disney a lot more in IT support than FP ever cost!

Your statement that FP+ is costing more in IT support than FP ever cost is not supported by the quote you referenced.

It is clear that creating/implementing MM+ costs more than not implementing MM+ and keeping FP-. But are they spending more on IT support for FP+ than FP- ever cost?

 

[MrInfinity]

Fastpass plus makes money? Really? Wow!! Come on. It is a huge money suck. Had Disney spent a fraction of what they spent advertising plus on legacy everyone would know about it too! Disney is invested heavily in this mess now, unfortunately so much so that there is no turning back.

Yes why is this so hard to grasp. FP+ is a system that can be monetized. FP- was not.

FP-: 1 guest rode Soarin 5 times, waiting 20 min each time. 4 guests rode 1 time, waiting 60 min each time. Total time waited: 340 minutes. Ride was ridden 9 times.
FP+: 5 guests ride Soarin once, waiting 20 min. Original guest wants to ride 4 more times, but must wait 60 for each one. Total time waited: 340 minutes. Ride was ridden 9 times.

Under FP+, the one guest who used to ride all day long via FP- gets hosed. But the other 4 guests each got to ride in 40 min less time.

You've now: Prevented one user from consuming all the value of the rides, and facilitated others who previously got little, to get some.

The one guest will not wait an hour for each riding. instead, he only rides 2 or 3 times. Which opens up the ride for now a 5th and 6th guest to get one. So now, the 9 ridings end up divided up among 7 or 8 people, which is clearly better.

This is a profitable plan.

Unless you can show me why Disney is better off giving any one person 5 FPs and 4 other guests none, you have no case to argue that FP- was a better system than FP+.

I get that YOU were the person put out by this. But you have to look at what is best in the big picture... getting you on a ride 5 times, or you and 4 other guests on once.

 

[flicx]

I'm not going to try to say that FP+ makes money, because I have no way to know for sure.

However, aren't they advertising MM+ as a whole, with FP+ as a component? Most of the marketing I've seen has been more focused on the Magicbands. Once you book your trip they feature FP+ in the booklets they send out, but haven't they always sent out print media after booking? I have always been impressed with their marketing, I can't begin to imagine the kind of budget it takes, but does anyone know for sure how much more FP+ is costing in that department?

I guess since they have added it to ads where they hardly ever talked about FP- it has had an impact, but in the larger context of MM+ I wonder if the impact is significant.

They are talking about MMplus in the ads, but they really have put an emphasis on being able to reserve a ride in advance. I feel had they spent the same time and effort on legacy people would use it just as much. They could have gone with the MMplus system and a hybrid of legacy and probably gotten by with less cost and more efficiency.

 

[cakebaker]

Fastpass plus makes money? Really? Wow!! Come on. It is a huge money suck. Had Disney spent a fraction of what they spent advertising plus on legacy everyone would know about it too! Disney is invested heavily in this mess now, unfortunately so much so that there is no turning back.

You have no more facts to back this up than anyone else does to say fp+ makes money. We're all guessing. If we look at profits, business is better than ever.

Here's mine- FP+ cost a fortune on start up. They're probably still running at a loss on it. Long term, it will be hugely profitable for all the reasons they have always claimed- it encourages onsite stays, longer stays, less time in the parks allowing for more guests at the parks.

I don't buy for a second this a sinking ship they're going down with because they can't afford not to. If they didn't believe it was going to make them profits, they'd cut it loose. Maybe they're wrong but if I have to bet based on opinions from people who just don't like the way fp+ works and the powers that be at WDW, my money is going with WDW.

Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean it's not one that works and makes profit for the company. I never see posts from anyone who likes it, yet thinks it will fail. It's only those who don't who make the leap from- it doesn't work for me to it's disaster and a huge mistake they should've never done. It's just a mistake for them- not the majority and not WDW.

 

[Josh Hendy]

That is at the heart of all of this. If Disney built more attractions, no ride-rationing system would be needed.

Everyone knows that in many businesses, some of their products/services have higher profit margins than others. McDonalds makes very little on hamburgers, but makes a TON of money on fries and an even HUGER profit on drinks (at least according to popular legend).

But McDonalds doesn't have a bunch of beancounters and suits trying to come up with ways to limit hamburger sales on the assumption that this must inevitably lead to more profitable sales of fries and drinks, cashing in on their supposed market dominance. They know that it's the hamburgers that are the one and only real reason to visit their restaurants ... err, McCafés. Nobody at McDonalds would be so stupid as to impose a limit on the number of hamburger sales or to invent a computerized "tier" system in which you can only get a second quarter pounder if you also buy a large Coke beforehand. They don't make you reserve your hamburger a week in advance even though that would help them to plan staffing levels in advance. That would be completely stupid, because it would show extreme ignorance of why people come to McDonalds in the first place, and what they expect to happen there. So what if a few cheapskates come in and order 2 regular cheeseburgers and a glass of water? The next group in line will be a bunch of teenagers ordering 6 large soft drinks and 6 large fries. If they started to hassle and interfere with the guy ordering 2 (or 10) plain hamburgers, and furthermore to give this policy the slogan "Hamburgers Your Way [TM]" then the vibe that they would give to all of their customers is just plain wrong.

The existence of a few people who are thrilled to be able to reserve their hamburger in advance and get a ready-made, balanced (sic) meal all ready-made for them on a tray doesn't change the essential fact that McDonalds means hamburgers ... and WDW means rides.