I am beginning to lose hope...

[Planogirl]

worst kicker in the behind is I have a son that really cant do amusement parks without front of the line passes. Walking and standing kills him. He was born with missing bones and cartilage. We always did fund raisers for his group home to go to Disney every couple of years. Now Disney has made it almost impossible for his group to go and be well.

I'm so sorry to see this. Is it hard for him to sit in a wheelchair or some other such thing too? I know that some people have trouble constantly sitting too.

 

[WillAustin]

We always did fund raisers for his group home to go to Disney every couple of years. Now Disney has made it almost impossible for his group to go and be well.

That's sad. Sorry to hear that.

 

[lauradis]

That's sad. Sorry to hear that.

its OK I'm a realist last time we took just him to Disney for couple of days we carried a folding chair for lines. It was actually comical. He really has physically grown out of it.

Now we do different vacation funds for his group home. We didn't just lose paper fast passes, we lost medical ones too from years pass.

 

[lauradis]

I'm so sorry to see this. Is it hard for him to sit in a wheelchair or some other such thing too? I know that some people have trouble constantly sitting too.

yea but he has had many fun years at Disney. he wouldn't last for full week trip at Disney or day, wheel chair or not. His replacement surgeries are going to happen in stages in next couple of years at 28-30 so they will last for while. He is happy old man. lol

Not to get side track, yes lots of us are sad, pissed about the fp+ situation, but we truly have no control over it. deal with it or leave it.

I'm positive the dis board or other Disney sites will find a way to make it better. If not I will be the one singing, joking, having fun like a crazy Disney person in line.

 

[lauradis]

I can't figure out how to tour MK the right way without showing up at rope drop. That one is giving me trouble and considering that MK is supposed to open at 8 AM (7 AM our time), I'm not exactly thrilled.

I'm old school commando tour girl. So setting the alarm clock and doing full day is my personal style. My husband is a sleep in do what ever he wants Disney person.

Im reformed after fp+ and I just keep telling my self we will be back again in couple of years relax and enjoy. Even with FP+ we did ride tot 4-6 times. I think I did three. they did 6.

 

[Planogirl]

I'm pretty much a commando person too but with these times, I figure that I'll have to get up at 6:30 to get to rope drop at MK. Eck.

That a lot of tot. What time of year was that? We are going during early spring break.

 

[lauradis]

Never go over a 4/5 time that was second week in oct 2013. Our next trip is first week in December 2015. I refuse to go during high season. This will be our last every other trip for while unless hubby and child really want to go. we are going to switch to other places. Now that my last child is getting older.

 

[whiporee]

http://www.aecom.com/deployedfiles/...conomics/_documents/ThemeMuseumIndex_2013.pdf

A lot of folks have said that Disney doesn't release attendance figures. Here they are from 2013. The Magic Kingdom saw 18.5 million people in 2013, up a million from 2012 and up 4.4 million since 2004. 18.5 million translates to about 52,000 people a day, up from 38,000 in 2002. That's a 30 percent increase in a decade, after only picking up two million in the 30 years before that. If you figure the resorts have 30,000 rooms and they average 3.2 people a room and 90 percent occupancy, that's 82,000 people a day just in the resorts. If you figure 38 percent of the overall WDW goes to the MK on any given day, that's 32,000 from just the resorts -- almost as many people come just from the resorts every day as used to be the overall attendance when FP debuted. So it's not surprising that the system they implemented doesn't work as well now as it did then. Heck, it's up 2.5 million from 2009 -- 6500 more people a day. That's a 17 percent increase in five years -- or an extra 15 minutes on a headliner, an extra five on a secondary.

The flow on a ride is static -- it takes time to load, time to unload, time for the ride. So lines are inevitable. What do people do then? They come to sites like this or buy one of the books and try to find a way to maximize they fun. I used to go to WDW in the 90s -- there was never a big crowd for rope drop then, but as people find out about a way to get more rides in -- and more people stay at the resorts that facilitate getting to the MK at opening (or make it easier to stay until 11 or midnight or 2 am) -- those things get crowded, too. Likewise with the different times during the year -- crowd calendars let the world know when things slow down, so why not take advantage of it? A 5 today has 40 percent more people than it did just a decade ago. Of course people drained the FP- kiosks -- they're spending 10 grand on a trip, they want was many rides as they can get.

And that's the fundamental problem that won't go away no matter what the mitigation system is. The MK has a max capacity of 100K, and the aforementioned 30,000 rooms need to be filled. WDW isn't going to actively reduce crowds, and without that, it doesn't matter what they do about lines. There are just too many people in the park. Just from '12 to '13, that's 2900 more people each and every day in the MK. It's not a matter of FP+ or FP-, it's just that most of the headliners aren't designed for the amount of traffic they see. And there's no way to fix that, either. More rides would mean more capacity and more people wanting to come -- you can't really refurbish any of the existing headlines to speed them up.

So OP, you're right to lose hope. Disney will never be what you (or I) remember. But it's not because of FP, or ADRs or throwaway rooms. It's because too many damn people want to come. And that's not going away.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

http://www.aecom.com/deployedfiles/...conomics/_documents/ThemeMuseumIndex_2013.pdf

A lot of folks have said that Disney doesn't release attendance figures. Here they are from 2013. The Magic Kingdom saw 18.5 million people in 2013, up a million from 2012 and up 4.4 million since 2004. 18.5 million translates to about 52,000 people a day, up from 38,000 in 2002. That's a 30 percent increase in a decade, after only picking up two million in the 30 years before that. If you figure the resorts have 30,000 rooms and they average 3.2 people a room and 90 percent occupancy, that's 82,000 people a day just in the resorts. If you figure 38 percent of the overall WDW goes to the MK on any given day, that's 32,000 from just the resorts -- almost as many people come just from the resorts every day as used to be the overall attendance when FP debuted. So it's not surprising that the system they implemented doesn't work as well now as it did then. Heck, it's up 2.5 million from 2009 -- 6500 more people a day. That's a 17 percent increase in five years -- or an extra 15 minutes on a headliner, an extra five on a secondary.

The flow on a ride is static -- it takes time to load, time to unload, time for the ride. So lines are inevitable. What do people do then? They come to sites like this or buy one of the books and try to find a way to maximize they fun. I used to go to WDW in the 90s -- there was never a big crowd for rope drop then, but as people find out about a way to get more rides in -- and more people stay at the resorts that facilitate getting to the MK at opening (or make it easier to stay until 11 or midnight or 2 am) -- those things get crowded, too. Likewise with the different times during the year -- crowd calendars let the world know when things slow down, so why not take advantage of it? A 5 today has 40 percent more people than it did just a decade ago. Of course people drained the FP- kiosks -- they're spending 10 grand on a trip, they want was many rides as they can get.

And that's the fundamental problem that won't go away no matter what the mitigation system is. The MK has a max capacity of 100K, and the aforementioned 30,000 rooms need to be filled. WDW isn't going to actively reduce crowds, and without that, it doesn't matter what they do about lines. There are just too many people in the park. Just from '12 to '13, that's 2900 more people each and every day in the MK. It's not a matter of FP+ or FP-, it's just that most of the headliners aren't designed for the amount of traffic they see. And there's no way to fix that, either. More rides would mean more capacity and more people wanting to come -- you can't really refurbish any of the existing headlines to speed them up.

So OP, you're right to lose hope. Disney will never be what you (or I) remember. But it's not because of FP, or ADRs or throwaway rooms. It's because too many damn people want to come. And that's not going away.

You know that Disney didn't release those numbers, right? They are estimates that TEA makes based on the percentage increases that Disney reports. There really are no hard numbers for this. Although, if we want to talk TEA attendance numbers, if I'm Disney, I'm wondering why the increase in attendance at MK isn't spilling over to my other parks.

 

[Cormoran]

You know that Disney didn't release those numbers, right? They are estimates that TEA makes based on the percentage increases that Disney reports. There really are no hard numbers for this. Although, if we want to talk TEA attendance numbers, if I'm Disney, I'm wondering why the increase in attendance at MK isn't spilling over to my other parks.

I'm so glad someone else said this. Disney does not release their attendance numbers. Every time I see someone provide numbers it's from an outside source and it's a guesstimate. It's funny, most of the time, when people talk about it being crowded, they are talking about MK.

 

[cakebaker]

I'm so glad someone else said this. Disney does not release their attendance numbers. Every time I see someone provide numbers it's from an outside source and it's a guesstimate. It's funny, most of the time, when people talk about it being crowded, they are talking about MK.

It's more than a guesstimate. Some of these sources are extremely reliable and it's quite a detailed method they use to arrive at the numbers. The industry itself relies on these numbers.

 

[Cormoran]

Let me repeat : Disney does not release their attendance numbers

 

[whiporee]

You know that Disney didn't release those numbers, right? They are estimates that TEA makes based on the percentage increases
that Disney reports. There really are no hard numbers for this.

Every time I see someone provide numbers it's from an outside source and it's a guesstimate.

So you dispute the numbers? You think TEA makes them up? Do you think Disney lies about their percentage increases?

Extrapolating from what is known is the way business and science works. You take the evidence you have and you project off them.

if you don't trust numbers, you don't trust numbers. Nothing anyone can do about that.

 

[Cormoran]

So you dispute the numbers? You think TEA makes them up? Do you think Disney lies about their percentage increases?

Extrapolating from what is known is the way business and science works. You take the evidence you have and you project off them.

if you don't trust numbers, you don't trust numbers. Nothing anyone can do about that.

I don't think Disney is lying about there percentage increase, they do not provide attendance numbers. So TEA is making a guess. It may or may not be accurate. Who's to say?

 

[cakebaker]

Let me repeat : Disney does not release their attendance numbers

Disney does not release their attendance numbers....for public consumption. But who they do release them to, if anyone, we do not know.

They're are several reputable sources that have very reliable methods for determining those numbers. You can dismiss them if you don't like them, but it's a very reliable source. If you don't trust those numbers, you probably shouldn't trust any numbers anyone releases.

If Disney did publicly release their numbers- because it happens with the numbers they do release- those that don't like the numbers just claim Disney is reporting false information. They can't win either way.

 

[Cormoran]

Let me repeat again: I believe Disney's report on % increases, it came from Disney. Let me say it again: Disney does not report their attendance numbers.

 

[cakebaker]

Here's how they come by their figures:
AECOM obtains the figures used to create the TEA/
AECOM Theme Index and Museum Index through a
variety of sources, including statistics furnished directly
by the operators, historical numbers, financial reports,
the investment banking community and local tourism
organizations, among others.

 

[cakebaker]

Let me repeat again: I believe Disney's report on % increases, it came from Disney. Let me say it again: Disney does not report their attendance numbers.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that they don't release attendance numbers in a format that the public can see.

Not sure why you feel the need to repeat it. No one argues that fact.

 

[goofyernmost]

Well for everyone that hates it because it's diffferent there are one or two that are OK with it. For example, I always have a Park Hopper and I always use it.

I decided on February 1st to take a quick trip to Florida on the 9th of February. I stay offsite and have a non-expiration ticket. I got on line that day and set up three days worth of FP's and two Dining APR's. I got everything I asked for except 7DMT. No hassle at all. I now have them on my phone ready to be used and I assume that my card will work fine. At least it did last time. (I don't like the bands mostly because since I am not staying onsite, they charge me for a Magic Band and the card works just fine and just as easy in my opinion)

My plan that took me the huge amount of time of about a half hour was to concentrate my FP's on my first of the day park, use the fastpasses and then go to my second park and head for the kiosk. Now for those that just love the old system, please tell me the difference between going to the old FP dispensing Kiosk areas and going to the kiosks. I see no difference at all. When you get to a second park there was always the risk that what you wanted a FP for was already maxed out anyway.

It is obvious that it is set up the way they want it to be therefore limiting the vast number that some used to get and allow others that may have not been able to get one to have a chance as well as limit the numbers that just go to one ride (the popular one) It may have been something that some individuals don't like but, there are a lot of individuals in the park and one persons desire cannot rule out the desires of the rest.

Did I mention that I did all that only 9 days in advance?

I don't usually quote myself, but, I thought I would do a quick followup.

I am now back and this is how it went down. My first day I went to DHS (mostly because I was excited to see the current state of destruction of the BAH. It was very rewarding. I used my three FP's with no problem, rode some other rides and then took the boat to Epcot. Since my plan was to just do WS, I didn't attempt any other FP's because, frankly, they were not needed. I did use my ADR at Nine Salamander's** in China. All paperwork was there and no hangups at all. (There were other problems but nothing to do with MM+.)

Second day... Epcot in the morning! Used my three FP's with no problems then got to every attraction that I wanted to see before leaving for a few hours to rest my, by then, extremely aching old joints. Returned later at around 6 PM to MK. Got a bonus because after boarding the tram from the parking lot, while waiting I glanced to the right just in time to see the rocket launch from Cape Canaveral. Score! Entered MK and went to the FP+ kiosk. I sheepishly told the CM that I was hoping for a miracle that there might be a FP+ available for the 7DMT. We all had a good laugh and I decided that I would try my theory and attempt to ride during the parade. (I hate parades anyway) When that time rolled around I headed for the ride. The external wait time sign was 70 minutes. Even my phone app. for wait times said 60 minutes. I decided to bite the bullet and hit the line because otherwise I would not have been able to ride it. From the time I entered the queue until I cleared the exit in actuality was exactly 30 minutes. Yet another score! BTW, if you can, do ride the 7DMT. It is old time Disney detail, yes, on the short side. But everything that everyone has been clamoring for Disney to get back too.

Third day.... MK day! Arrived at the parking lot with about 45 minutes to spare to get to my first FP. (Peter Pan) Boarded the tram and waited and waited and waited. It appears that some poor lady with two small children, a stroller and what appeared to be 4000 bags had left something in the car. Which, BTW, was almost at the other end of the row. Now that normally wouldn't matter except this was the last tram that was going to stop at that lot (Simba) because now the lot was absolutely full. While we were waiting the lady CM was doing her best to keep everyone amused. She started singing "Do you want to build a Snowman" and other ad-lib's (quite amusing really) until the lady finally arrived. We had lost 20 minutes just waiting for her. In the meantime people that arrived much later then we did were already in the park or very close to it. I never had that happen before. Quite different. When she did finally get on the tram, her little boy threw a fit because he wanted to ride on the seat next to the door which of course is against the rules. It was only about 10 something AM and the woman already looked like she had been forcibly pulled through a knothole. He got his way and the CM's ignored it because they were afraid that any further delay would have caused a riot like reaction. We got to the TTC with no further incidents. By the time I got on the ferry over to MK I was swiftly running out of time on my FP window. I did make it with about 3 minutes to spare.

Anyway the rest of the day went as planned. All FP's worked like magic and my lunch time ADR at Liberty Tavern was again ready and waiting. Again a place that I wasn't impressed with based on what it cost for lunch, but, that is another story for another thread. In short, everything worked flawlessly with only a 9 day advance. I am an old timer with 31 years of visits to WDW and in spite of the fact that I have hated FP for what it has done to the parks overall, found that if I had to choose between the two, I would vote for the new one. It was just plain easier.

** Yes, I know it's Nine Dragons, but, that was how unimpressed that I was with the place.

 

[cakebaker]

Thanks for the report! Nice to hear it worked well for you!