How would you reform the US Education system.

[golfgal]

Yep. You'd be surprised how many parents are in favor of tough standards, bringing back excellence, expecting students to toe the line . . . oh, but we'll be pulling Suzie out of class next week for a Disney trip, and Johnny set out to do a really great project, but he didn't finish it on time -- surely you'll grant an extension, won't you? You can't have it both ways: Either we have tough standards, or we don't.
I'm with you on the behavioral issues thing, but not on the inclusion. Inclusion allows students with minor learning problems to perform in a mainstream classroom. We cannot afford to "throw away" those kids. We need to educate them; the other option is to support them for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps you're thinking that inclusion kids are the ones who need help learning to button their shirts, etc? That's not realistic. The inclusion kids are the ones who need extra time on their tests, who can't quite keep up with taking notes in class, who need more graphic organizers. Also, the vast majority of our inclusion kids are successful in school.

The kids who aren't successful are the ones who WON'T DO their work.

I have to say that tracking I think is a good idea though. It is really hard on the kids that get the concept the first time to have to sit and listen to it reexplained 10 times for the kid or two that don't. We are REALLY doing a disservice to ALL kids when we trying to "balance" the classrooms. The child that needs more time then feels bad/stupid/whatever because everyone else gets it. Putting kids at a level in which they are comfortable but still challenged helps everyone.

 

[eliza61]

Time magazine has a great story this week on this very issue.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2016978,00.html

 

[eliza61]

Yep. You'd be surprised how many parents are in favor of tough standards, bringing back excellence, expecting students to toe the line . . . oh, but we'll be pulling Suzie out of class next week for a Disney trip, and Johnny set out to do a really great project, but he didn't finish it on time -- surely you'll grant an extension, won't you? You can't have it both ways: Either we have tough standards, or we don't.
I'm with you on the behavioral issues thing, but not on the inclusion. Inclusion allows students with minor learning problems to perform in a mainstream classroom. We cannot afford to "throw away" those kids. We need to educate them; the other option is to support them for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps you're thinking that inclusion kids are the ones who need help learning to button their shirts, etc? That's not realistic. The inclusion kids are the ones who need extra time on their tests, who can't quite keep up with taking notes in class, who need more graphic organizers. Also, the vast majority of our inclusion kids are successful in school.

.

not only that but I love the post where not only are the disser's pulling their kids out of school, they're pissed that the teacher won't accomodate little suzy or Johnny with the school work.

 

[MrsPete]

I have to say that tracking I think is a good idea though. It is really hard on the kids that get the concept the first time to have to sit and listen to it reexplained 10 times for the kid or two that don't. We are REALLY doing a disservice to ALL kids when we trying to "balance" the classrooms. The child that needs more time then feels bad/stupid/whatever because everyone else gets it. Putting kids at a level in which they are comfortable but still challenged helps everyone.

But this has nothing at all to do with inclusion. The instruction in a 9th grade math inclusion classroom should be identical to that in a 9th grade regular classroom. The inclusion students would receive any extra help that they need to "bring them up to speed". For some, that just means extra time on tests -- never on instruction. For others, it might mean a "study hall" class in which they review the instructions and get help with the math homework.

When inclusion's done right, it's a good program.
I'm not saying that all schools do it right.

 

[sturdypeasantstock]

- More emphasis on values and treating others respectfully

- A dress code

- Tolerance for people of other faiths and backgrounds, and students with disabilities

- More teachers and administrators that don't patronize and put down students with disabilities and their parents

- More parental involvement

- Making sure that the $$$ is spent on the kids, not on increasing the administrator's already huge salaries

- More art and music classes, and more respect for these disciplines (they are not frills!)

- More time spent in PE - we call it "gym" here - so many children are out of shape and will have huge health problems later in life. More exercising done in gym class to get kids in shape, less time spent on team games like dodgeball and kickball. They should exercise every day. Sadly, not every parent will encourage their child to get exercise after school or can afford to enroll them in sports programs.

- Zero tolerance for bullying

- More discipline and respect for authority

- Not "teaching to the test"

- More field trips and "hands on" learning

- Extracurricular activities and clubs. These encourage a sense of community in the school, help students form friendships and discover their talents.

 

[littlepeppers]

11 yrs as a public school teacher taught me a lot. Sorry about the rant, but there are a lot of repressed feeling in here.

We need to stop acting like all students are alike. They aren't & it is impossible for 1 or 2 teachers to address such a variety of students in one room. We need to bring back the Tracking System or Ability Grouping. The strong students can learn to thier potential, & those who need extra help can slow down & get it.

Not every job needs a person to be prepared for college. Bring back the trade schools. Since we try to prepare all students for collede, we end up teaching a vast majority of our students nothing at all because they shut down. Ever student should leave school w/ a skill. We shoud teach kids to be the best college student they can, or the best darn plumber they can, or the best secretary.......... We need all of these jobs filled to make the world go around.

Get rid of this Spiral Method teaching & bring back the drill & practice. We learned this way & we can think. If you don't tell students what type of problem is on the worksheet, they haven't a clue as to how to approach it. They can't think. If they didn't get it in 1st gd, they will shut it down in 2nd & 3rd gd. They don't just pick it up one year. We need to use a Mastery Based teaching method. We need smaller text books, with less information in them. You shouldn't learn addition in 3mos & then move on to subtraction. 1st gd should be addition, 2nd gd should be subtraction, 3rd, gd. multiplication, & 4th gd. division. Learn the heck out of them & then you will have a sound knowledge bank & the background necessasry to manipulate the information.

Let teachers TEACH!!!!!!!!!! We don't need you to check our plans all the time. Remember we needed a degree in education to get this job. We were trained to do it. Trust us & stop burdening us w/ CYA paperwork. We don't need to spend 1hr writing up dress code violations, tardies, checking to see if you have written 6 pre-referrals before you send an office refferal & only after verifying that it is in line w/ their behavior plan, attend 4 meetings when we should be running & grading papers, calling 15 parents per day for behavior issues to meet the pre-referral requirements.......

Administrators need to stop acting like they can't see the problems in the schools. I could tell you who was high, cutting class, dealing drugs, getting into a fight....... Listen to your faculty & take action. If a student is written up, deal with it. Don't lose the referral. I shouldn't have had to xerox referrals to make sure they weren't thrown away. Use that little camera in the hall. When I tell you that Joe walke the hall everyday at 4th period, check the camera. If the boys bathroom smells like pot, check the camera to see who has been in there during the last 20min.

I turned in my chalk 2 yrs ago because I was fighting a loosing battle. My students were paying the price of this broken system & I felt like I needed to be medicated to stay sane while trying to keep up. There weren't enought hrs in a day to do the job they asked. I always did what I needed to do to TEACH my student before I did all of the crazy paperwork. I often got in trouble for not having my paperwork in order, but my students could outscore the other classes. If I couldn't leave work, unmedicated, feeling like I actually did my job, then I wasn't going to do it anymore. I miss the students, but my family needed me too. I was a slave to the paperwork, & I had to put my family 1st.

This is why I homeschool my children now. I want them to learn how to think.

 

[Snoopymom]

Not every job needs a person to be prepared for college. Bring back the trade schools. Since we try to prepare all students for collede, we end up teaching a vast majority of our students nothing at all because they shut down. Ever student should leave school w/ a skill. We shoud teach kids to be the best college student they can, or the best darn plumber they can, or the best secretary.......... We need all of these jobs filled to make the world go around.

Get rid of this Spiral Method teaching & bring back the drill & practice. We learned this way & we can think. If you don't tell students what type of problem is on the worksheet, they haven't a clue as to how to approach it. They can't think. If they didn't get it in 1st gd, they will shut it down in 2nd & 3rd gd. They don't just pick it up one year. We need to use a Mastery Based teaching method. We need smaller text books, with less information in them. You shouldn't learn addition in 3mos & then move on to subtraction. 1st gd should be addition, 2nd gd should be subtraction, 3rd, gd. multiplication, & 4th gd. division. Learn the heck out of them & then you will have a sound knowledge bank & the background necessasry to manipulate the information.

wow, you said that....out...loud? Thank you! I was beginning to think I was crazy. Our school district is completely "Rah Rah" the opposite of this.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I do believe there is a college out there for DS.
The PROBLEM is the requirements for high school graduation are probably going to completely beat him down, so who knows if he will GET to college? As long as there is a college in existence that will take him with less than 4 years of high school math, then high school should not FORCE him into 4 years of math. Math is lovely. It is a delightful and useful skill. It is a skill DS does NOT possess, and will likely NEVER possess. His brain isn't wired that way. He doesn't get it. So what is he supposed to do? Take it and fail so his GPA is lower and he loses those credits? I bet the colleges LOVE that on a transcript.

He is a pretty smart guy, and talented at things OTHER than math. Why isn't there some acknowledgement that not every kid is a math/science genius? He can be successful if the schools can be REASONABLE about what they require.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

Yep. You'd be surprised how many parents are in favor of tough standards, bringing back excellence, expecting students to toe the line . . . oh, but we'll be pulling Suzie out of class next week for a Disney trip, and Johnny set out to do a really great project, but he didn't finish it on time -- surely you'll grant an extension, won't you?

I'm a parent that is in favor of tougher standards, and I will take my kids out for Disney. That is because we don't have tougher standards. If we did then my kids wouldn't be pulled out of school. My kids can miss a lot of school before they will even begin to fall behind. We took them out for 7 days for Disney last year, and a couple days for skiing. It didn't make any difference. It is sad that it didn't. That is part of the education problem. They are both at the top of their class still. The make up work was super easy for them. So why shouldn't I take them out? If I felt they would have a hard time making up the work, then I wouldn't do it. (I don't agree with your project example. We don't ask for extensions.)

 

[golfgal]

I do believe there is a college out there for DS.
The PROBLEM is the requirements for high school graduation are probably going to completely beat him down, so who knows if he will GET to college? As long as there is a college in existence that will take him with less than 4 years of high school math, then high school should not FORCE him into 4 years of math. Math is lovely. It is a delightful and useful skill. It is a skill DS does NOT possess, and will likely NEVER possess. His brain isn't wired that way. He doesn't get it. So what is he supposed to do? Take it and fail so his GPA is lower and he loses those credits? I bet the colleges LOVE that on a transcript.

He is a pretty smart guy, and talented at things OTHER than math. Why isn't there some acknowledgement that not every kid is a math/science genius? He can be successful if the schools can be REASONABLE about what they require.

Colleges DO make exceptions and knocking his GPA down because of one subject is going to have very little bearing on getting into college or not-unless of course you are of the mind that he HAS to go to an Ivy or nothing. DS18 got a D in Calculus, didn't hurt him one bit getting into college. If the rest of his grades are fine it won't hurt him at all. They DO look at their TRANSCRIPT, not just their GPA and yes, a college would prefer to see a lower grade in a harder class then a higher grade in an easy class.

If he REALLY does have a learning disability with math, it might be in your best interest to document that too.

 

[dejr_8]

11 yrs as a public school teacher taught me a lot. Sorry about the rant, but there are a lot of repressed feeling in here.

We need to stop acting like all students are alike. They aren't & it is impossible for 1 or 2 teachers to address such a variety of students in one room. We need to bring back the Tracking System or Ability Grouping. The strong students can learn to thier potential, & those who need extra help can slow down & get it.

Not every job needs a person to be prepared for college. Bring back the trade schools. Since we try to prepare all students for collede, we end up teaching a vast majority of our students nothing at all because they shut down. Ever student should leave school w/ a skill. We shoud teach kids to be the best college student they can, or the best darn plumber they can, or the best secretary.......... We need all of these jobs filled to make the world go around.

Get rid of this Spiral Method teaching & bring back the drill & practice. We learned this way & we can think. If you don't tell students what type of problem is on the worksheet, they haven't a clue as to how to approach it. They can't think. If they didn't get it in 1st gd, they will shut it down in 2nd & 3rd gd. They don't just pick it up one year. We need to use a Mastery Based teaching method. We need smaller text books, with less information in them. You shouldn't learn addition in 3mos & then move on to subtraction. 1st gd should be addition, 2nd gd should be subtraction, 3rd, gd. multiplication, & 4th gd. division. Learn the heck out of them & then you will have a sound knowledge bank & the background necessasry to manipulate the information.

Let teachers TEACH!!!!!!!!!! We don't need you to check our plans all the time. Remember we needed a degree in education to get this job. We were trained to do it. Trust us & stop burdening us w/ CYA paperwork. We don't need to spend 1hr writing up dress code violations, tardies, checking to see if you have written 6 pre-referrals before you send an office refferal & only after verifying that it is in line w/ their behavior plan, attend 4 meetings when we should be running & grading papers, calling 15 parents per day for behavior issues to meet the pre-referral requirements.......

Administrators need to stop acting like they can't see the problems in the schools. I could tell you who was high, cutting class, dealing drugs, getting into a fight....... Listen to your faculty & take action. If a student is written up, deal with it. Don't lose the referral. I shouldn't have had to xerox referrals to make sure they weren't thrown away. Use that little camera in the hall. When I tell you that Joe walke the hall everyday at 4th period, check the camera. If the boys bathroom smells like pot, check the camera to see who has been in there during the last 20min.

I turned in my chalk 2 yrs ago because I was fighting a loosing battle. My students were paying the price of this broken system & I felt like I needed to be medicated to stay sane while trying to keep up. There weren't enought hrs in a day to do the job they asked. I always did what I needed to do to TEACH my student before I did all of the crazy paperwork. I often got in trouble for not having my paperwork in order, but my students could outscore the other classes. If I couldn't leave work, unmedicated, feeling like I actually did my job, then I wasn't going to do it anymore. I miss the students, but my family needed me too. I was a slave to the paperwork, & I had to put my family 1st.

This is why I homeschool my children now. I want them to learn how to think.

Excellent post!

 

[Hoodie]

11 yrs as a public school teacher taught me a lot. Sorry about the rant, but there are a lot of repressed feeling in here.

We need to stop acting like all students are alike. They aren't & it is impossible for 1 or 2 teachers to address such a variety of students in one room. We need to bring back the Tracking System or Ability Grouping. The strong students can learn to thier potential, & those who need extra help can slow down & get it.

Not every job needs a person to be prepared for college. Bring back the trade schools. Since we try to prepare all students for collede, we end up teaching a vast majority of our students nothing at all because they shut down. Ever student should leave school w/ a skill. We shoud teach kids to be the best college student they can, or the best darn plumber they can, or the best secretary.......... We need all of these jobs filled to make the world go around.

Get rid of this Spiral Method teaching & bring back the drill & practice. We learned this way & we can think. If you don't tell students what type of problem is on the worksheet, they haven't a clue as to how to approach it. They can't think. If they didn't get it in 1st gd, they will shut it down in 2nd & 3rd gd. They don't just pick it up one year. We need to use a Mastery Based teaching method. We need smaller text books, with less information in them. You shouldn't learn addition in 3mos & then move on to subtraction. 1st gd should be addition, 2nd gd should be subtraction, 3rd, gd. multiplication, & 4th gd. division. Learn the heck out of them & then you will have a sound knowledge bank & the background necessasry to manipulate the information.

Let teachers TEACH!!!!!!!!!! We don't need you to check our plans all the time. Remember we needed a degree in education to get this job. We were trained to do it. Trust us & stop burdening us w/ CYA paperwork. We don't need to spend 1hr writing up dress code violations, tardies, checking to see if you have written 6 pre-referrals before you send an office refferal & only after verifying that it is in line w/ their behavior plan, attend 4 meetings when we should be running & grading papers, calling 15 parents per day for behavior issues to meet the pre-referral requirements.......

Administrators need to stop acting like they can't see the problems in the schools. I could tell you who was high, cutting class, dealing drugs, getting into a fight....... Listen to your faculty & take action. If a student is written up, deal with it. Don't lose the referral. I shouldn't have had to xerox referrals to make sure they weren't thrown away. Use that little camera in the hall. When I tell you that Joe walke the hall everyday at 4th period, check the camera. If the boys bathroom smells like pot, check the camera to see who has been in there during the last 20min.

I turned in my chalk 2 yrs ago because I was fighting a loosing battle. My students were paying the price of this broken system & I felt like I needed to be medicated to stay sane while trying to keep up. There weren't enought hrs in a day to do the job they asked. I always did what I needed to do to TEACH my student before I did all of the crazy paperwork. I often got in trouble for not having my paperwork in order, but my students could outscore the other classes. If I couldn't leave work, unmedicated, feeling like I actually did my job, then I wasn't going to do it anymore. I miss the students, but my family needed me too. I was a slave to the paperwork, & I had to put my family 1st.

This is why I homeschool my children now. I want them to learn how to think.

Will you teach my son?

 

[NotUrsula]

I do think that tracking is USUALLY a good thing for learning. What sometimes is not good about it is when a child gets locked into a track for his entire school career, and that can happen when the bureaucracy is given the responsibility for approving the track.

Give the first-line placement authority to the teachers. If Mrs. X has little Johnny-Track-3 in her science class and realizes he is up for harder work, then let her transfer him to the Track 1 class as long as there is room, and by the same token, if she has him in 1 and realizes that he can't cut it, let her move him to 3. (And if you are tracking, never start each year with each class maxed out on legal student-teacher ratio, so that moving is possible.)

I often hear horror stories from veteran teachers about students who were put in a track in 1st grade and forced to stay there forever no matter what, but IME with it as a student it did not work that way. Kids in my school moved back and forth between tracks all the time, and some of them were in more than one track simultaneously, depending on the subject. It was definitely possible to do it, and this was happening in states that traditionally are at the bottom of the list in terms of school funding.

In regard to math, we should not let kids ditch it entirely, because it is a skill that gets rusty if you don't use it. However, if the child is not cut out for higher math, then let him take practical math instead: things like bookkeeping and basic statistics, which all of us need to know how to use in everyday life, no matter what we end up doing for a living. (If you cannot read a spreadsheet you are always at a workplace disadvantage.)

 

[golfgal]

I do think that tracking is USUALLY a good thing for learning. What sometimes is not good about it is when a child gets locked into a track for his entire school career, and that can happen when the bureaucracy is given the responsibility for approving the track.

Give the first-line placement authority to the teachers. If Mrs. X has little Johnny-Track-3 in her science class and realizes he is up for harder work, then let her transfer him to the Track 1 class as long as there is room, and by the same token, if she has him in 1 and realizes that he can't cut it, let her move him to 3. (And if you are tracking, never start each year with each class maxed out on legal student-teacher ratio, so that moving is possible.)

I often hear horror stories from veteran teachers about students who were put in a track in 1st grade and forced to stay there forever no matter what, but IME with it as a student it did not work that way. Kids in my school moved back and forth between tracks all the time, and some of them were in more than one track simultaneously, depending on the subject. It was definitely possible to do it, and this was happening in states that traditionally are at the bottom of the list in terms of school funding.

In regard to math, we should not let kids ditch it entirely, because it is a skill that gets rusty if you don't use it. However, if the child is not cut out for higher math, then let him take practical math instead: things like bookkeeping and basic statistics, which all of us need to know how to use in everyday life, no matter what we end up doing for a living. (If you cannot read a spreadsheet you are always at a workplace disadvantage.)

Do your schools not have these options?? I know the "college track" takes kids through Calculus but we have many other options for kids not needing calculus or not wanting to take it (trig, stats, etc.) You can easily get in 4 years of math in our high school without ever taking calculus. Algebra and Geometry are required but most kids have those in 8th, 9th, 10th grade leaving 11th and 12th grade open for whatever. They do have to have 4 years of high school math to graduate but it doesn't stipulate that it HAS to be Advanced Algebra, Pre-Calc, Calc.

 

[LisaR]

Do your schools not have these options?? I know the "college track" takes kids through Calculus but we have many other options for kids not needing calculus or not wanting to take it (trig, stats, etc.) You can easily get in 4 years of math in our high school without ever taking calculus. Algebra and Geometry are required but most kids have those in 8th, 9th, 10th grade leaving 11th and 12th grade open for whatever. They do have to have 4 years of high school math to graduate but it doesn't stipulate that it HAS to be Advanced Algebra, Pre-Calc, Calc.

I know the state I live in has this option, however, it is a catch-22.

Sure, you can take four years of lower level math and graduate high school but do you want to go to a state college? If so, you are out of luck. The standards to get into the state schools feed off the college prep track of high school. Four years of higher math is mandatory.

Just because a kid isn't good at higher level math does not mean they are not college material. The majors that my DD is considering do not require any math past the two general ed math classes. However, if she wants to get into our state schools she will need to pass algebra 2 and calculus in high school. That seems absurd to me.

 

[golfgal]

I know the state I live in has this option, however, it is a catch-22.

Sure, you can take four years of lower level math and graduate high school but do you want to go to a state college? If so, you are out of luck. The standards to get into the state schools feed off the college prep track of high school. Four years of higher math is mandatory.

Just because a kid isn't good at higher level math does not mean they are not college material. The majors that my DD is considering do not require any math past the two general ed math classes. However, if she wants to get into our state schools she will need to pass algebra 2 and calculus in high school. That seems absurd to me.

I find that very hard to believe. I know a lot of people SAY these things are true but I don't believe it for one second that if all else is up to par that a college is going to reject a kid just because they don't have calculus on their transcript. Colleges are competitive to get into but not THAT competitive.

Four years of HIGHER math is not required ANYWHERE, 4 years of MATH is required and THAT is a BIG difference. This is also how college enrollment requirements get misunderstood too.

 

[golfgal]

Required High School Course Units

The units listed below represent the minimum required for admission consideration:

* 4 units of English, at least three with substantial writing requirements
* 4 units of mathematics at the Algebra I level and higher
* 3 units of natural science, at least two with laboratory
* 3 units of social science
* 2 sequential units of the same foreign language or American Sign Language
* 2 elective units, preferably from the English, mathematics, natural science, social science, or foreign language areas

From Florida State U--statistics and trig are considered higher level then Algebra I and would satisfy this requirement-a student could take Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II and Trigonometry and get in. No Calculus required.

Same goes for the University of Florida:

Mathematics (Algebra 1, Formal Geometry, Algebra 2) 4 years--no Calculus required

Again, when people hear 4 years, they automatically assume Calculus (or Pre-Calc) and for a non-math major or non-math depended major I find it very hard to believe that if someone takes Trigonometry vs Calc that they won't be accepted.

 

[LisaR]

I find that very hard to believe. I know a lot of people SAY these things are true but I don't believe it for one second that if all else is up to par that a college is going to reject a kid just because they don't have calculus on their transcript. Colleges are competitive to get into but not THAT competitive.

Four years of HIGHER math is not required ANYWHERE, 4 years of MATH is required and THAT is a BIG difference. This is also how college enrollment requirements get misunderstood too.

Here are the MINIMUM requirements for FL State University:

The units listed below represent the minimum required for admission consideration:

* 4 units of English, at least three with substantial writing requirements
* 4 units of mathematics at the Algebra I level and higher
* 3 units of natural science, at least two with laboratory
* 3 units of social science
* 2 sequential units of the same foreign language or American Sign Language
* 2 elective units, preferably from the English, mathematics, natural science, social science, or foreign language areas



They require 4 units of math starting with Algebra 1. I consider that higher level math.

 

[golfgal]

Here are the MINIMUM requirements for FL State University:

The units listed below represent the minimum required for admission consideration:

* 4 units of English, at least three with substantial writing requirements
* 4 units of mathematics at the Algebra I level and higher
* 3 units of natural science, at least two with laboratory
* 3 units of social science
* 2 sequential units of the same foreign language or American Sign Language
* 2 elective units, preferably from the English, mathematics, natural science, social science, or foreign language areas



They require 4 units of math starting with Algebra 1. I consider that higher level math.

Most kids take Algebra I in 8th grade-it isn't really higher level math. Calculus is higher level math.

 

[LisaR]

Required High School Course Units

The units listed below represent the minimum required for admission consideration:

* 4 units of English, at least three with substantial writing requirements
* 4 units of mathematics at the Algebra I level and higher
* 3 units of natural science, at least two with laboratory
* 3 units of social science
* 2 sequential units of the same foreign language or American Sign Language
* 2 elective units, preferably from the English, mathematics, natural science, social science, or foreign language areas

From Florida State U--statistics and trig are considered higher level then Algebra I and would satisfy this requirement-a student could take Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II and Trigonometry and get in. No Calculus required.

Same goes for the University of Florida:

Mathematics (Algebra 1, Formal Geometry, Algebra 2) 4 years--no Calculus required

Again, when people hear 4 years, they automatically assume Calculus (or Pre-Calc) and for a non-math major or non-math depended major I find it very hard to believe that if someone takes Trigonometry vs Calc that they won't be accepted.

Come on! You honestly think a student that isn't good at math can take Trig? So it isn't calculus. Big deal. Trig isn't something the average kid that sucks at math is going to be able to handle. Not every kid is cut out for higher level math and yes, trig is higher level math.