How much power should schools have?

[skoi]

Yes, but a vacation takes away a lot of those school hours! That is the reason for the rule, lost instructional time. What happens before and after school is up to you, but it is the school's job to make sure children are present during instructional time. I don't think that they are overstepping their bounds in requiring that a student be present during scheduled instruction unless they are ill. A school cannot educate a child that is only there when it is convinent for the parent. It is a social contract that goes both ways, and i feel that when we agree to entrust our child's education to a school we have to agree to abide by their rules, wether or not we totally agree with all of them. There are some rules at my child's school that I have a problem with, but we still follow them because that is what we agreed to do when we enrolled her. I don't like that they tell me that i can only dress my kid in shorts of a cretian lenght and only send a one piece swimsuit for swimming. She has a long narrow torso and it makes it almost impossible to buy things to meet the dress code, but we deal with it b/c my child's education is mor important that challenging the rules.

Long quote, but I can agree with most of it. It's one of the reasons we chose to home school, along with the local district refusing to provide speech therapy for our oldest dd because while she needed it she was "too smart" for them to spend any extra money on her. (Of course I know this is illegal now, but back then, duh, not a clue). There are a lot of rules and regulations in our district with which we don't agree.

I can see missing school for very exceptional trips. We went to China twice to adopt. In April, I'm taking the big kids on a Med cruise- fitting because they're both doing World History this year. I wouldn't take them out for a trip to Disney or a Caribbean cruise, but that's me. I haven't counted time on Disney trips as school time since the kids were very young.

Seriously, does she have to show receipts? I mean, come on?!?!?! Ridiculous. It makes me think more and more that I am going to home teach.

Maybe- because we have to provide reams of paperwork to the district to prove that our children had 900 hours/180 days of instruction (990 hours from seventh grade up) per year. We have to pay for an evaluator, then turn in a portfolio and records that show enough work to satisfy the local administrator. And if that person doesn't like home schooling (had one of these once) it's a nightmare.

I do more work homeschooling two (soon to be three) of my own than I did when I taught entire classes high school and college.

 

[taylor3297]

Well said, and as a 7th grade math teacher, I agree 100%! Except that I won't be able to pull my kids out of school for vacation EVER because in my district, teachers can't use personal or sick days consecutively..so no vaca for me....but that is a whole other thread. My district does not have a vacation policy for students, but after a certain number of unexcused absences, you can be denied credit. I usually have about 10 of 100 students take a week long vacation, and 9 times, none of the work is done, and the excuse is they couldn't do it. It is very frustrating.

I am currently on leave, but my principal (if I asked far enough in advance) would okay for me to go to my nieces' graduation, just he wouldn't approve the whole week. I could use personal leave or non paid leave to go. When I take my children to Disney in Dec 2010, I will have to take non paid leave. My principal firmly believes in family first and understands that sometimes the summer isn't always the best time for family events. He even took his children to Disney one December and that was because his summer was booked with dealing with many changes our school was going through. No one begrudged him taking the time off because he would allow the rest of us to do the same. Again we have to ask well in advance.

 

[boettj]

If school systems would change the school year, then I don't think this would be such a problem. As it stands, our school system still gets summers off. This results in two problems:

• Summer Knowledge gap
• No fall vacation

Now I know that many are going to say that it's too expensive to run air conditioning in the schools. Well many places like Texas now run on a full year calendar. This provided for fall vacations, a longer X-mas break, and no summer knowledge gap.

I would not take my children to Disney over Feb, or April vacation. It's just way too busy. In the summer, it's far too hot for us. As a result, we go in the fall. Normally around November.

However, the general comment that we all pay the price for lemmings is accurate. This is the group of parents that either don't care, want to buck the system, should not be parents, etc...etc...

Every time we take our DCs out of school for vacation, we ask ahead of time for school work. We have yet to receive any. On other threads, I've read that it's not the job of the teacher to write a special lesson plan for kids taking vacation. Yet they want to tell me when I can and can't take vacation. Interesting. I am not attacking teachers. Their job is not easy. However, parents like myself that try to do the right thing pay for the lemmings.

We just went down to Washington D.C. over April vacation. I had my DS write a report of what he saw and did. This was not required, but I felt he should do it anyways. This does not make me the best parent, however, all I am trying to point out is education is important to me. Yeah yeah, I can hear it now, "If education is so important, then why do you take you DCs out of school. Because family vacations are an important piece of life's education.


Enough said for now. I am sure I will be posting many replies to the attacks....

 

[AshtonsMom99]

I think it's better to take them out In elementary school than it is in 7th through 12th....I took my son out for a week when we went to TX a few years back....He was in first grade, and all the principle and teacher said was takke pictures and have a good time....He also had to write a little report about it....ok so maybe 2 sentences, but he got to stand up in front of the class and tell everyone about it....It was considered an educational trip because of the "cowboy" and rodeo thing I guess...

 

[HappyPeach]

It's all about money when it comes down to it. Absences mean the school gets less money. Period. A child who is keeping up (or excelling) in school, who has independent or make-up work to do is not being shortchanged educationally. I don't feel sorry for teachers who "have extra work" created by having to create the make-up work either. It's their job. It's not my job as a parent to make things easier for them. Sometimes things happen at my job that create extra work for me... it's just part of the deal. So, in short... obviously I think that schools (especially government run schools) are trying to assert way too much power.

There may be classes especially with older students that truly require daily attendance... say high-level math and science with labs... make-up work doesn't really work with some subjects. In those cases, the students should not be missing class to go on vacation.

My son is young and in a private school so I don't have any problem with taking him out. I have a SIL who travels internationally to lecture and she takes her children with her on many of her trips. They have seen the world and are excellent students. They have just started at a new private school this year. SIL has had difficulties with some administrators over the absences even though the kids are academically benefiting from the travel.

 

[parrotheadmom]

I don't post very often, but this subject always makes me mad. My husband has a job that prohibits him from taking time off in his busy season which is June-August, Nov -Dec, Easter holiday. So, for our family that limits our time to school days. I try to plan around other school breaks so they don't miss as much school, but we don't have a choice. Our schools have always been very good about working with our family. If I could not pull my kids out of school then we would never get to go as a family.

 

[mwatson011]

Luckily, I am not aware of any laws in my state (DE) prohibiting kids from a few unexcused absence days. We are looking into parochial schools though, so I will ask before enrolling my dds. That being said, dh and I agreed that we would like to go on vacation every other year, to Disney World, and that when we do, we will be taking the girls out of school for a week in December or January, during Disney's slow season, not at holiday time. I can't deal with crowds, in general I dislike most people...you know those with no manners, who let their children behave as animals...and that is typically what I find on a crowded day anywhere.

The only thing that would change our minds is if one or both of our girls is struggling in school. Right now they are very smart, and very outspoken, so we foresee no problem, however, if they are behind in school, I will not add fuel to the fire. We will just skip/reschedule our vacation for that year.

Now, my BIL is a totally different story, my ds tells me that his parents wouldn't let him stay home from school even when he was sick (I have a problem with people sending sick children to school, but that is for another day...). She tells me there is no way her kids will ever get a day off for anything but resting in bed. To each his own...

 

[jamstew]

Without reading anything other than the initial post, I'll put in my two cents. If your children attend public schools, they are subject to guidelines of the state and the school district. States have laws and districts have policies and the consequences of violations. Public schools get funds from the state and federal government, and some don't get paid for students who aren't there. Funding is also tied in many areas to test scores, which go down with increased absenteeism. Bottom line--if you want to be able to take your children out of school without any consequences, put them in a private school with whose policies you agree, find a public school with less restrictive absentee policies, or home school. My parents occasionally took us out of school for travel, and I took mine out for a couple of days at a time once or twice, but only when they were in elementary school.

 

[StitchandPooh'sMom]

Because of the attendance part, schools will offer educational leave forms for parents to fill out. If the principal approves it then it doesn't count against the attendance. I had to do one for my daugther because we are going to my niece's high school graduation in Ala. While we are there, we are going to visit some musuems, go to the battleship, and do some research at the coast, since her K class will be studying the beach while we are gone. So, I always encourage parents to fill out the form. You never know what may be approved.

I have asked about educational trips, and for our district (at least according to our principal), only trips to visit colleges will be excused for educational reasons. I wonder if I can take my kindergartener and fourth grader to look at colleges in Orlando?

I am actually pulling my kids out of school next Monday for a weekend (non-educational) trip. EOG's will be over for my fourth grader, and I told the principal that they would be out of town. It's the only day of the year that they will miss except due to illness, so I will take my lumps from the administration. But I'm sure they are not happy about it!

 

[Colleen27]

If school systems would change the school year, then I don't think this would be such a problem.

I agree. It would also ease a lot of the issues with when parents can take vacations, because school vacation wouldn't be so concentrated at one time of year.

I've often wished for a year-round school year because my DH is in a seasonal profession. He's too busy to travel from April or May through Sept or Oct in a typical year (we've got a bit more flexibility this year because business is so slow ). Do I wish that was different? Of course! It is much easier on us not to have the kids making up missed work on our flights and after we return home. I'd *gladly* plan our vacations, even our Disney vacations, for summer. Our late August Disney trips (without DH) were great in terms of crowds and weather, and since we don't start school till after Labor Day, we don't even have to deal with peak summer crowds to do Disney without missing school. But as it is, we only have one school vacation during DH's off season and we can't travel then because my ex gets DS for part of that break, so our choices are to travel without DH or to pull the kids out of school. Thankfully, we live in a school district that understands that and is willing to work with parents who have such restrictions on their ability to vacation on the kids' schedule.

 

[laceemouse]

I agree. It would also ease a lot of the issues with when parents can take vacations, because school vacation wouldn't be so concentrated at one time of year.

I've often wished for a year-round school year because my DH is in a seasonal profession. He's too busy to travel from April or May through Sept or Oct in a typical year (we've got a bit more flexibility this year because business is so slow ). Do I wish that was different? Of course! It is much easier on us not to have the kids making up missed work on our flights and after we return home. I'd *gladly* plan our vacations, even our Disney vacations, for summer. Our late August Disney trips (without DH) were great in terms of crowds and weather, and since we don't start school till after Labor Day, we don't even have to deal with peak summer crowds to do Disney without missing school. But as it is, we only have one school vacation during DH's off season and we can't travel then because my ex gets DS for part of that break, so our choices are to travel without DH or to pull the kids out of school. Thankfully, we live in a school district that understands that and is willing to work with parents who have such restrictions on their ability to vacation on the kids' schedule.

When my kids started school in Florida many years ago our school was piloting a year round calendar. We LOVED it!!! MOST parents hated it for several reasons:
1- They worked and the day care thought it was a hassle
2- They had older kids on a traditional calendar so they rarely were all off at the same time
3- Sports and summer camps at the YMCA and all of the REST of the world was still on the traditional calendar
4- Many people just don't like change
5- Even though they got the same amount of time off each year it felt like less because they never got that LONG summer break we used to have

The pilot program was a failure. I would have loved to stay with it. We have since moved several times and now we homeschool. The old school calendar is based on kids helping with the farm all summer. It is antiquated!

I understand that a lot of the rules schools make are based on funding, and also there are a lot of bad parents out there, but basically the NEA thinks that all of us are unfit parents and we would be better off just giving our kids over to the government at birth.
Be careful who you vote for, with the current administration things are bound to get worse. Research the UN "rights of the child" bill. Figure out which politicians back it. Get informed and involved!

 

[taylor3297]

It's all about money when it comes down to it. Absences mean the school gets less money. Period. A child who is keeping up (or excelling) in school, who has independent or make-up work to do is not being shortchanged educationally. I don't feel sorry for teachers who "have extra work" created by having to create the make-up work either. It's their job. It's not my job as a parent to make things easier for them. Sometimes things happen at my job that create extra work for me... it's just part of the deal. So, in short... obviously I think that schools (especially government run schools) are trying to assert way too much power.

QUOTE]

I have no problem creating lesson plans/work for students who are going to be out for a lenght of time due to going on vacation, what I have a problem with is the students coming back and haven't even attempted any of the work provided. Thus as I said before I then have to catch the student up before or after school hours. Due to several students being out for an extended period of time, for two months, I was at school at 6 AM and did not arrive home until 7:30 PM each night except Fridays. I would have to work around the student's after school or before school activities. Once I got home I was still responsible to be prepared for the other 130+ students. The students did catch up on what they missed and I received only one thank you for the extra time. But my own children missed out during that time. So, I think we need to think about what is considered "extra work" and what impact it will have. So, yes it is my job to create the lessons, but is also the parents job to help make sure that the work is at least attempted. Yes this does make my job easier, but it also helps the student not have make up the concepts that were missed, but they are also responsible for the new material that is being presented in class. This can be very overwhelming for the student.

 

[Nicoleclaw]

When my kids started school in Florida many years ago our school was piloting a year round calendar. We LOVED it!!! MOST parents hated it for several reasons:
1- They worked and the day care thought it was a hassle
2- They had older kids on a traditional calendar so they rarely were all off at the same time
3- Sports and summer camps at the YMCA and all of the REST of the world was still on the traditional calendar
4- Many people just don't like change
5- Even though they got the same amount of time off each year it felt like less because they never got that LONG summer break we used to have

The pilot program was a failure. I would have loved to stay with it. We have since moved several times and now we homeschool. The old school calendar is based on kids helping with the farm all summer. It is antiquated!

I understand that a lot of the rules schools make are based on funding, and also there are a lot of bad parents out there, but basically the NEA thinks that all of us are unfit parents and we would be better off just giving our kids over to the government at birth.
Be careful who you vote for, with the current administration things are bound to get worse. Research the UN "rights of the child" bill. Figure out which politicians back it. Get informed and involved!

I totally agree about the school calendar and I so wish we had the year round calendar where I teach!
I wouldn't say it is the NEA thinking parents are unfit. It all goes back to NO Child Left Behind and funding, and that is not made by the NEA, trust me. I can't see how it is a bad a idea to limit children missing school. As a teacher, I don't particularly like when my students miss a week because I spend time putting the work together, and it hardly ever gets completed. Missing a week of middle school math can take a solid two hours to catch someone up on the topic alone.

http://cbs5.com/national/NEA.No.Child.2.269670.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112791,00.html

 

[taylor3297]

Our school system offers:
traditional calendar
4 track year round
modified calendars

Elementary and middle schools have all 3 type of calendars, while high schools are mainly traditional, but there is one or two that have modified.

All of the day cares, Y's and such have adapted to the different calendars and offer programs to fit which ever calendar your child may be on.

 

[boettj]

I have no problem creating lesson plans/work for students who are going to be out for a lenght of time due to going on vacation, what I have a problem with is the students coming back and haven't even attempted any of the work provided. Thus as I said before I then have to catch the student up before or after school hours. Due to several students being out for an extended period of time, for two months, I was at school at 6 AM and did not arrive home until 7:30 PM each night except Fridays. I would have to work around the student's after school or before school activities. Once I got home I was still responsible to be prepared for the other 130+ students. The students did catch up on what they missed and I received only one thank you for the extra time. But my own children missed out during that time. So, I think we need to think about what is considered "extra work" and what impact it will have. So, yes it is my job to create the lessons, but is also the parents job to help make sure that the work is at least attempted. Yes this does make my job easier, but it also helps the student not have make up the concepts that were missed, but they are also responsible for the new material that is being presented in class. This can be very overwhelming for the student.

I couldn't agree more. Education is a group effort. From the teacher, to the school administration, to the parents, to the coaches. All of these people must take an active part in the learning process. If a family goes on vacation, and a teacher creates a lesson plan for the student, then it's the parents duty to make sure the work is done. While I can see a parent just saying they are on vacation, they'll do it when we get home. However, this is not the right attitude. When my DCs get home, they get their homework done first. The longer it takes, the less time they will have to play outside.


I see two sides of the coin. There are parents that don't participate in their child's education. However, there are also parents like myself that want to help, but the teacher does not want their help. It's a mixed bag. Both of the DCs current teachers are great. They work hard with the kids, and have provided extra work to help the kids.


What does a parent do when the teacher does not want to work with them? What does a teacher do when the parents don't work with them? Education must be a two way street. I realize that many parents work long hours. I realize that not every family has a sahm/d. However, if you have children, it's your obligation to ensure they get the best education. This requires a two way street. It's also the job of the school to ensure that the teachers are working with the parents. As of right now, there is no way for parents to rate the teachers. Or teachers to rate parents for that matter.


I've said enough for now.

 

[taylor3297]

I couldn't agree more. Education is a group effort. From the teacher, to the school administration, to the parents, to the coaches. All of these people must take an active part in the learning process. If a family goes on vacation, and a teacher creates a lesson plan for the student, then it's the parents duty to make sure the work is done. While I can see a parent just saying they are on vacation, they'll do it when we get home. However, this is not the right attitude. When my DCs get home, they get their homework done first. The longer it takes, the less time they will have to play outside.


I see two sides of the coin. There are parents that don't participate in their child's education. However, there are also parents like myself that want to help, but the teacher does not want their help. It's a mixed bag. Both of the DCs current teachers are great. They work hard with the kids, and have provided extra work to help the kids.


What does a parent do when the teacher does not want to work with them? What does a teacher do when the parents don't work with them? Education must be a two way street. I realize that many parents work long hours. I realize that not every family has a sahm/d. However, if you have children, it's your obligation to ensure they get the best education. This requires a two way street. It's also the job of the school to ensure that the teachers are working with the parents. As of right now, there is no way for parents to rate the teachers. Or teachers to rate parents for that matter.


I've said enough for now.

And you have said it perfectly!

BTW there is a website called rateyourteacher.com (or something like that) It is just a site where students can share how they feel about teachers in their school.

 

[Karlzmom]

I am a high school science teacher, and while i completely understand what you are saying sometimes schools do have to step in and protect students from there parent's stupidity. .

The ARROGANCE of this statement is appalling! What, exactly, gives any teacher/principal/administrator the right to even think they are somehow qualified to sit in judgment? I'm not talking about the kids who are black & blue all over, but just like any entity tasting power the schools have decided they know best and we parents are just supposed to take it. Reason 4,231 for homeschooling!

 

[Shelton123]

Depends on the kid. I've missed quite a few days this year. I've gotten sick a LOT! Yet I still have made all A's all year so far. This one kid I know missed a day and he failed all of his classes one marking period except for electives because of it.

 

[Katy Belle]

I've always been mind boggled by folks from areas where it's actually illegal to take your kids out of school for a week for family vacation. Now I understand the point of view of teachers about how far behind kids can get in a week, but I feel the bottom line is, your child, your decision, as long as you aren't neglectful, and a week at Disney sure isn't neglectful.

Now I'm seeing stories about kids getting in trouble for facebook or myspace comments about school administrators. Today I saw an article that a private school was going to suspend a Senior from graduation if he attended his girlfriend's prom at another school. (the school prohibits dancing.) His father commented that the school's rules should only pertain to school hours- and I tend to agree. Wondering what others thing about things like this.

I'm a parent and I used to teach. I can see both sides. I've taught at a couple of very low income area schools. One school had a high, high turnover rate, due to parents moving to avoid rent. They would move in an apartment, and get kicked out the 3rd month, move onto a new school. There were lots of parents in trouble with the law for their kids missing too much school. It really is hard to teach them when they aren't there. These parents are not doing "home study" with these kids. These kids DO need to be protected by the law or they will not be in school.

On the other hand... I am a parent and I did pull my kids out of public school for one week for a disney vacation. My Kindergarteners teacher said, "He could miss 6 weeks and not be behind." My third graders teacher gave him work and had him write a journal. I wouldn't do it now, that they are older. We are now at a private international school. They are strict about not pulling your kids out for vacations. I see thier point...we get LOTS of vacation time throught the year... two Eid vacations, Christmas, Spring Break, and a few long weekends.

I don't know what it right or wrong... moderation I guess.

 

[lastminutemom]

Many of the Christian Schools around here have parents pledge not to drink alcohol or use drugs. Most of the parents I know whose kids go to the schools sign the pledges and then do what they want. Very frequently, those children end up in public school at some point, because the school wasn't a good fit for the family.

The vacation thing is tricky. I don't think you should expect teachers to do extra work to accomodate your child's needs because of missing school ahead of time.

Once they hit middle school, instruction should be continuous and quick and missing a day (even if sick) should be a problem. (With the exception of the days right before vacation, end of year, etc) If not, I would be concerned that the school isn't rigourous enough. I can't imagine a kid missing a week (again regardless of the reason) in high school and not struggling to catch up.

Also, most private high schools want your kid there and in fact, can be more punitive than public schools depending on your public school district.