How much power should schools have?

[katyjeka]

This a topic I usually avoid, but I want to comment on the mesage from the person in Australia. My oldest sister and her family moved to England over a year ago.(her dh took a much needed job) It took them awhile to get used to things, but they are enjoying it. They have 3 children and were quite surprised at how "open minded" the schools are about travel. Vacations are looked upon as educational opportunities. I've always felt a big problem with the school system in the US is the failure to see travel as educational. My dd's have learned Spanish, not in a classroom, but on numerous trips to Mexico. I also feel Epcot is a great place to expose children to different cultures, since many of the kids will never get the chance to travel out of the US.

 

[mlynn]

We took my daughter6 out in Sept. for 5 days to go to Disney.The only thing her principle told her she had to do on her vacations.Was to send her a post card and have a great time.
Her teacher(love this teacher) gave me all her work and had her write a journal so she could come back and read it to the class. All I had to do was send an email to the principle and teacher.

 

[jessica52877]

Well, here in GA the public schools can do alot if your child doesn't go to school, including sending the parents to jail. And yes, they have done it! Therefore, I think that the public schools have alot of freedom to do as they wish with regards to punishment! It is something taken a bit too far and really is going to make our country go downhill. I personally know many who homeschool now because of the policy.

I am tired of paying the price for all those who don't care. I do care yet I have all these policies that are in place that are just plain crazy! I don't have a choice of where to send my child besides the local public school, a private school or to homeschool. I am choosing the best option for him yet in reality it is not the best for his life.

Tell me why you can take your child for their well visit at the doctor or cleaning at the dentist and have those days excused. My son's doctor and dentist are open after school hours and all summer long including most days he is off school during the school year. That is something that can be done at a different time of day yet most parents make the appt during school hours. I do understand for sick visits.

My son has missed 1 day all year long because he was *sick* and on that day the schoold decided he was sick, not me or him. He ate some gross food at breakfast and immediately threw it up. He wasn't sick. He reacts just like me when he doesn't like something! He had no idea he didn't like it! YET, I was forced to come and pick him up.

 

[crisi]

I've always been mind boggled by folks from areas where it's actually illegal to take your kids out of school for a week for family vacation. Now I understand the point of view of teachers about how far behind kids can get in a week, but I feel the bottom line is, your child, your decision, as long as you aren't neglectful, and a week at Disney sure isn't neglectful.

Now I'm seeing stories about kids getting in trouble for facebook or myspace comments about school administrators. Today I saw an article that a private school was going to suspend a Senior from graduation if he attended his girlfriend's prom at another school. (the school prohibits dancing.) His father commented that the school's rules should only pertain to school hours- and I tend to agree. Wondering what others thing about things like this.

Private schools have the right to ban anything they want - they are private institutions. If dancing is against school rules, then the child should not be dancing. Behavior codes do not apply just when you are in school for a private school, and if you can't live to the behavior code, go to a different school.

Public schools are a different matter since they have a responsibility to educate everyone. However, I feel strongly that if we are going to make the accountable for results through NCLB then we have to provide them the authority to enforce mandatory attendance. It simply isn't fair to the teachers to say "you can loose your job if your students don't perform to standard" if some of the students don't show up regularly.

And here is something I didn't realize until this year - my kids are both pretty high performers and so I've never really worried about pulling them for a few days. But the test they are taking expect improvement. If my kids' test scores slip - even if they are still performing a grade level or two above what is expected - that dings the school. So if my third grader goes from reading at a seventh grade level to reading at a sixth grade level over the course of the year, its a problem for the school - even though she is still performing above grade level.

 

[H_Bruemmer]

The schools have gotten completely out of hand with this in my opinion. Because I share custody with my ex-husband, I do not have the opportunity to take my children on vacation during the summer. I only have them during the school year. We planned our 5 day Disney trip carefully, so they would only miss three days of school, and all work was made up before we got back. All three kids, including my autistic son, are on the honor roll.

Later in the year, we had a death in the family, and had to go from South Carolina to Ohio for the funeral. Because it was sudden, we didn't have a chance to contact the school before we left, and we were gone for four days. I did send email to the kids teachers. We drove straight through, both ways to avoid missing extra school. We returned home to find an official looking form taped to our front door, saying we had been referred to Social Services for "educational neglect" due to "excessive, unexcused absences."

Apparently, my daughter had been overheard telling a friend about an upcoming trip her father was planning to Universal Studios over the break, and it was assumed I had pulled the kids out of school for another vacation because we "make a habit of attending amusement parks while school is in session." The principal explained that the teachers aren't required to check their email, so it didn't count as official communication. Needless to say, everything was dropped once they realized where we had been. I had to provide "evidence" in the form of obituaries and prayer cards from the funeral home. It still made me mad enough to withdraw my kids. My children now attend a virtual public school from home!

 

[kadesha]

It's a big deal here. If your kid has more than 5 absenses without dr. notes you get referred to the school social worker and they put you on "probation" for excessive absences or something like that. I've never done it but have heard about it. I took my DD out last year but only for 2 days. (the last 2 days before Thanksgiving break.) There is no way I could ever take her out for a week.

 

[Sunset Cliffs]

And here is something I didn't realize until this year - my kids are both pretty high performers and so I've never really worried about pulling them for a few days. But the test they are taking expect improvement. If my kids' test scores slip - even if they are still performing a grade level or two above what is expected - that dings the school. So if my third grader goes from reading at a seventh grade level to reading at a sixth grade level over the course of the year, its a problem for the school - even though she is still performing above grade level.

This is a huge part of it. I work at a high school and we are pretty strict about attendance, but not to the level some of you have described. I am not a teacher, so my opinion doesn't come from that viewpoint.

First of all, my principal is definitely a flexible person. If there is something that comes up, he always says to not feel bad because "family comes first." If it were up to him, I don't think he would have a problem w/ family trips. We do offer "independant study" through the school to kids who will be gone for a week (for whatever reason). As previous posters have said, it is the bad parents who are not involved at all in their kid's lives that have forced the District to create these policies that affect a lot of people who shouldn't be penalized.

Also, the state testing is HUGE in California. I was speaking to my principal the other day about how they are trying to keep up our high test scores this year (we are a state accredited school and have been listed in Newsweek's top 1200 high schools nationwide list for the past 3 years). He was telling me that even though our scores are way above average, if we don't do the same or better this year, our school will be put on some sort of "probation". It is to the point where we would have to send a letter to each parent telling them that we were on probation, etc. and it would be very bad PR for our school. To me, that is extremely harsh on the part of the state for penalizing a school that gets praised all of the time. Part of the way to ensure that our scores stay up is to make sure the kids are not missing school.

In high school it is a different situation than elementary schools. The kids are much more independant and can just choose to drive away if they don't feel like completing the day. A lot of the time the parents don't know their kids weren't in school until we inform them. So I understand both sides of this debate. I will probably try to pull my son out of school for vacations (when he is old enough to attend), but I understand the pressure that the schools are under as well.

 

[StitchandPooh'sMom]

She was told they had to go somewhere like a museum, zoo, or something along those lines. My nephew is super-big into racing (he learned his colors & numbers off racecars ) so I said taking him to raceshops should be his educational trip! Besides, those are FREE!

She wants to take them to Disney sometime in the near future. I'm curious as to how they will respond to that request.

Take them to Discovery Place - they're at a great age for that. Or take them gem mining at Hiddenite. My kids love that, and it is certainly educational (and pretty cheap).

 

[vcgirl925]

I think they should have no say in the matter. If the kids are allowed X number of days unexused and if my kids fall within that range, then they should have no say as to where i take my child on those days.

More and more schools are trying to parent our children and i don't care for it. My ds is going to kindergarten this year and we have a weeks vacation scheduled in Sept/Oct. So i hope they are ok with it cuz we're not canceling!

 

[taylor3297]

There are many well meaning parents out there who take their children on vacations during the school year and the trip is educational due to being a new place etc. As a math teacher, when a child misses a week of school, that child may miss up to 5 new math concepts or more depending on the math class. The majority of the time, I will send the work with the student in hopes some of the concepts are studied while enroute to destination. The majority of the time, the work comes back with nothing done. I ask why, and the student normally says that their parents couldn't help them. So, I end up arranging with the parents, days that the child can either come in early to school or stay after school in order to get the child caught up. This takes a lot of time. Now you may wonder why I do this, it is because NCLB does not leave any room for change in students performance. Say your school has 20 sub groups under NCLB, ALLsub groups must pass the state mandated test in order to be considered passing. If one group does not pass( this could mean that just one or two students in the sub group doesnt pass the test), then the whole school is considered as failing. This is like telling a child that there are 20 questions on the test, but if you miss one question you fail. So, teachers end up spending hours getting student caught up. I will take my child out of school for special trips as long as she is in elementary school when I know I will be able to teach her what she has missed. Once she hits middle school and high school, I will not pull her out. I can help with the math, but the other subjects aren't my cup of tea.

 

[StitchandPooh'sMom]

I think they should have no say in the matter. If the kids are allowed X number of days unexused and if my kids fall within that range, then they should have no say as to where i take my child on those days.

Since NCLB, kids in our school district are not allowed ANY unexcused absences. When I was in school, I could miss ten days unexcused per year. My kids can miss none. Even if they were allowed 3 or 5 days, I would certainly work to make sure they didn't miss any more than necessary. But sometimes life doesn't fall on the school calendar, and it would be nice to know they could miss a day or two without the school stressing over making AYP in attendance.

There are many well meaning parents out there who take their children on vacations during the school year and the trip is educational due to being a new place etc. As a math teacher, when a child misses a week of school, that child may miss up to 5 new math concepts or more depending on the math class. The majority of the time, I will send the work with the student in hopes some of the concepts are studied while enroute to destination. The majority of the time, the work comes back with nothing done. I ask why, and the student normally says that their parents couldn't help them. So, I end up arranging with the parents, days that the child can either come in early to school or stay after school in order to get the child caught up. This takes a lot of time. Now you may wonder why I do this, it is because NCLB does not leave any room for change in students performance. Say your school has 20 sub groups under NCLB, ALLsub groups must pass the state mandated test in order to be considered passing. If one group does not pass( this could mean that just one or two students in the sub group doesnt pass the test), then the whole school is considered as failing. This is like telling a child that there are 20 questions on the test, but if you miss one question you fail. So, teachers end up spending hours getting student caught up. I will take my child out of school for special trips as long as she is in elementary school when I know I will be able to teach her what she has missed. Once she hits middle school and high school, I will not pull her out. I can help with the math, but the other subjects aren't my cup of tea.

This is very well-explained. I'm not a big fan of NCLB and I'm not a big fan of vacationing when everyone else does, but I have come to understand why teachers and principals do what they do when a child is absent. I'd much rather pull them out for a week in October and go to Disney, making sure they keep up, but it just doesn't work that way anymore, at least where we live. Our school almost missed the attendance AYP two years ago - we made it by 0.1%. Our school would have gone from a school of excellence to a failing school, despite everyone in the school testing at or above grade level. I understand why the school administration gets so worked up about family trips, but I miss the good old days of off-season vacations!

 

[taylor3297]

Since NCLB, kids in our school district are not allowed ANY unexcused absences. When I was in school, I could miss ten days unexcused per year. My kids can miss none. Even if they were allowed 3 or 5 days, I would certainly work to make sure they didn't miss any more than necessary. But sometimes life doesn't fall on the school calendar, and it would be nice to know they could miss a day or two without the school stressing over making AYP in attendance.



This is very well-explained. I'm not a big fan of NCLB and I'm not a big fan of vacationing when everyone else does, but I have come to understand why teachers and principals do what they do when a child is absent. I'd much rather pull them out for a week in October and go to Disney, making sure they keep up, but it just doesn't work that way anymore, at least where we live. Our school almost missed the attendance AYP two years ago - we made it by 0.1%. Our school would have gone from a school of excellence to a failing school, despite everyone in the school testing at or above grade level. I understand why the school administration gets so worked up about family trips, but I miss the good old days of off-season vacations!

Because of the attendance part, schools will offer educational leave forms for parents to fill out. If the principal approves it then it doesn't count against the attendance. I had to do one for my daugther because we are going to my niece's high school graduation in Ala. While we are there, we are going to visit some musuems, go to the battleship, and do some research at the coast, since her K class will be studying the beach while we are gone. So, I always encourage parents to fill out the form. You never know what may be approved.

 

[MiniGirl]

I understand all about NCLB and uninvolved parents, etc, BUT you cannot tell me that, around here at least, the reason for the strict policy all comes down to funding -- plain and simple. The schools implemented these new policies only after funding started getting tied to attendance. Before that, as long as a child was meeting expectations, they didn't really care how many days a child was out of school -- especially if said child was travelling with family. Now, any absence without a doctor's note is unexcused.

We like to travel and we see the educational value in it, and we see the life experience as valuable as well. We are already homeschooling our oldest, and I cannot wait for school to end. As of May 29, we will be done with the public schools. My youngest finishes on the 28th and she will come home for school as well. We are in a good district and have a good local school here, but I just feel as if they are so intrusive. They want me to keep a log of what books my dd reads at home and other things. None of these things are big deals. I just don't like the idea of it. I have even read that some districts are requiring/asking parents to log their children's physical activities outside of school. Crazy!!! Oh well.... 3 weeks and counting.

 

[taylor3297]

I understand all about NCLB and uninvolved parents, etc, BUT you cannot tell me that, around here at least, the reason for the strict policy all comes down to funding -- plain and simple. The schools implemented these new policies only after funding started getting tied to attendance. Before that, as long as a child was meeting expectations, they didn't really care how many days a child was out of school -- especially if said child was travelling with family. Now, any absence without a doctor's note is unexcused.

We like to travel and we see the educational value in it, and we see the life experience as valuable as well. We are already homeschooling our oldest, and I cannot wait for school to end. As of May 29, we will be done with the public schools. My youngest finishes on the 28th and she will come home for school as well. We are in a good district and have a good local school here, but I just feel as if they are so intrusive. They want me to keep a log of what books my dd reads at home and other things. None of these things are big deals. I just don't like the idea of it. I have even read that some districts are requiring/asking parents to log their children's physical activities outside of school. Crazy!!! Oh well.... 3 weeks and counting.

I am not sure every state ties funding into attendance. Our school funding depends on the number of students enrolled in the school, number of special ed students, number of free/reduced lunch etc.

 

[MiniGirl]

Sorry. Double post.

 

[MiniGirl]

I am not sure every state ties funding into attendance. Our school funding depends on the number of students enrolled in the school, number of special ed students, number of free/reduced lunch etc.

That is why I made sure to put "in our area" or something like that. I do not know how it is in other states or even in other counties here in my own state. I only know that schools, again around here, set strict attendance policies only after funding was linked to attendance.

And I should add that funding isn't based solely on attendance. Of course there are other factors as well, but enough of it is that the district has put this strict policy in place. We have also seen news stories in the past about schools (somewhere in CA, IIRC) that have sent parents bills whenever their child had an unexcused absence because it cost the district that much in funding.

 

[momof1princess]

in my school district, i am not allowed to pull my daughter out of middle school for a vacation. i could do it in elementary school no problem, but middle school doesn't allow it. i think it stinks.

 

[Nicoleclaw]

There are many well meaning parents out there who take their children on vacations during the school year and the trip is educational due to being a new place etc. As a math teacher, when a child misses a week of school, that child may miss up to 5 new math concepts or more depending on the math class. The majority of the time, I will send the work with the student in hopes some of the concepts are studied while enroute to destination. The majority of the time, the work comes back with nothing done. I ask why, and the student normally says that their parents couldn't help them. So, I end up arranging with the parents, days that the child can either come in early to school or stay after school in order to get the child caught up. This takes a lot of time. Now you may wonder why I do this, it is because NCLB does not leave any room for change in students performance. Say your school has 20 sub groups under NCLB, ALLsub groups must pass the state mandated test in order to be considered passing. If one group does not pass( this could mean that just one or two students in the sub group doesnt pass the test), then the whole school is considered as failing. This is like telling a child that there are 20 questions on the test, but if you miss one question you fail. So, teachers end up spending hours getting student caught up. I will take my child out of school for special trips as long as she is in elementary school when I know I will be able to teach her what she has missed. Once she hits middle school and high school, I will not pull her out. I can help with the math, but the other subjects aren't my cup of tea.

Well said, and as a 7th grade math teacher, I agree 100%! Except that I won't be able to pull my kids out of school for vacation EVER because in my district, teachers can't use personal or sick days consecutively..so no vaca for me....but that is a whole other thread. My district does not have a vacation policy for students, but after a certain number of unexcused absences, you can be denied credit. I usually have about 10 of 100 students take a week long vacation, and 9 times, none of the work is done, and the excuse is they couldn't do it. It is very frustrating.

 

[badblackpug]

I understand all about NCLB and uninvolved parents, etc, BUT you cannot tell me that, around here at least, the reason for the strict policy all comes down to funding -- plain and simple. The schools implemented these new policies only after funding started getting tied to attendance. Before that, as long as a child was meeting expectations, they didn't really care how many days a child was out of school -- especially if said child was travelling with family. Now, any absence without a doctor's note is unexcused.

We like to travel and we see the educational value in it, and we see the life experience as valuable as well. We are already homeschooling our oldest, and I cannot wait for school to end. As of May 29, we will be done with the public schools. My youngest finishes on the 28th and she will come home for school as well. We are in a good district and have a good local school here, but I just feel as if they are so intrusive. They want me to keep a log of what books my dd reads at home and other things. None of these things are big deals. I just don't like the idea of it. I have even read that some districts are requiring/asking parents to log their children's physical activities outside of school. Crazy!!! Oh well.... 3 weeks and counting.

Absentee policies are nothing new. When I was in high school we were allowed 10 unexcused absences per year, anything without a doctors note or death in the family was considered unexcused...and that was *ahem* "a while ago"

I don't think logging independent reading is intrusive. That is part of our kids homework. They must read, independently, for at least 20 minutes per night, and a parent must sign the log that they did so. Kids earn prizes for each 10 books they read.

 

[lclark0621]

On of the things I love about my DS's Montessori school is how open minded they are about travel. They even encourage it!

This past school year alone, we took my son out for 2 weeks in Sept for a Disney trip & all of March for a trip to Scotland. No fuss, no questions, no "required reports". I told his teachers early (and reminded them) about the trips. They were thrilled for us & could not wait to hear all about it.

They only "request" was for us to take Flat Stanley along & take some pictures for the class (which DS was thirlled with!).

Because DS wanted to, DS & DH did a project on Scotland for the class when they came back (and it worked well since the class had just learned about Europe).

Already for next year, we have a trip planned for a week in Nov, for a trip to WDW. And who knows if we will do any other travel. (My DH travels a lot for work, and when he is going somwhere interesting or fun, we tag along as much as we can).

But I do like knowing I dont have to worry about someone telling me I can't take my son out of school for family travel (educational or not).

Yes DS is a good student, who willingly & happily goes to school & does his work. We would not travel as much during the school year if my DS struggeled in school. But thankfully we dont have that problem.