How much is the lack of AP sales affecting DVC?

[DougEMG]

We own a lot of points and live on the west coast in Canada. Our normal pattern of travel for the last 10+ years has been to go to WDW once a year for 3-4 weeks. Buying an AP and then staggering two trips so they were 12 months apart so as to get 2 trips out of one AP.

We ended up not going for 2 years during COVID, but luckily we had APs for everyone that had not been activated so were able to use them for the 2022 visit and will be using them for the visit this year.

By the time we travel in Sept/Oct if new AP sales haven't come back we'll have to look at renewing the AP and then using it for 1 trip only.

As a long time DVC owner and WDW visitor all the changes over the last 3-4 years have impacted me in a negative way. If I didn't already own DVC, I probably would just give up on WDW and not bother coming back. This actually happened back in the early '80s. We visited WDW for the first time over spring break (didn't realize it was spring break as we didn't have kids then) and I hated the crowds so much that we didn't come back for 10+ years (our daughter was then 5 and a total Disney fan). Right now I'm in a holding pattern. Will see how our trip goes this year and then decide what to do.

Short answer for me is that the AP issue is definitely making me rethink going as I'm not paying $100+ to wander around a park for a couple of hours.

 

[karrit2000]

I just booked a stay for mid May. My plan this time is to buy the Universal ticket they are currently selling where you pay for 3 days and get 2 free. I have one day left from my WDW ticket that was extended due to the Hurricane last September and I may purchase a ticket to the after hours event at DHS that falls during my stay. I also still have an old one day non expiring ticket that I need to find as well as one day left on a really old pre AK ticket from my first ever visit to WDW which I know they would only give me money toward a new ticket for. I'm sick of the Disney money grab and have really wanted to go back to Universal to fully immerse in all the Harry Potter stuff as well as visit the original Universal Park as I've only ever visited Islands of Adventure 2 times and Universal Hollywood once. I couldn't believe how much cheaper a Universal ticket is compared to a Disney one. I just need to figure out how I'll be going back and forth to Universal from SSR. I think the Mears shuttle may work out better for me as a solo rather than renting a car and paying for parking at Universal. Last time I checked car rental prices they were beyond crazy. The only reason I booked this trip was because I still had some banked points to burn off before the end of my use year.

 

[disney-inspired]

I wish the non-expiring tickets would come back if we can't have APs.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I think that we often try to draw a line between DVC membership and APs for DVC members and then it gets summarily dismissed that 'most' DVC members are not AP holders, which is probably true.

It is my belief that the point that is missed is that it is what I call the 'base membership' that are not generally AP holders, and by 'base membership' I am talking about people that bought in at the minimum required points purchase at a given time and never added on. I suspect that this is the majority of DVC membership as a whole.

However, I also suspect that the ownership of APs goes up noticeably for owners that have 'added on' over the years. People generally add-on to do one of two things. They do this to increase the number of days they can travel per year or to increase room/accommodation size (or both). Since getting past 10+ park days per AP UY generally justifies its cost, it's easy to see why many members who have added on to increase their number of total travel days to WDW (This is us.) are frustrated with the loss of APs. It should, IMO, be equally easy to see how many of these types of owners may have the perception that their overall ownership value has been lessened by the lack of new AP sales when they cannot purchase APs now. To us, this is part and parcel of the value of owning DVC. Note that I am not talking about a 'perk' on price here, but rather the option to even just purchase an AP as any other American can (COULD). Please don't confuse my point on that.

I suspect there is a fuzzy line around the 150-200 point barrier where the owning of APs goes up noticeably because those families are likely traveling more than once a year which is where the value of APs kicks in. My guess is that these are the people most frustrated. And I suspect that the vast majority of the people that find boards like this belong to this group. Their investment is greater and they tend to try to find like-minded and invested people like them, which is why we often think this board is not representative of the general membership. It isn't. But it doesn't mean it isn't a large enough group to have a voice and an opinion.

Is the lack of APs contributing to the decline in sales? I don't know. Would you add-on to increase your number of trips per year right now knowing that you can't purchase a higher value AP ticket?

 

[WDWFERN]

Note that I am not talking about a 'perk' on price here, but rather the option to even just purchase an AP

This is our frustration exactly. I am not looking for a perk or discount on APs. I just want to be able to purchase them. We made the decision to add on points so that we could visit a few times a year instead of once. Two of the trips are only for long weekends. So, if we want to enjoy one of our favorite restaurants in EPCOT, on one of our long weekend stays, we have to pay an enormous amount to buy a 1 or 2 day park ticket on top of the cost of dinner.

The entire sales model and theme of DVC is “welcome home.” We have added on, in large part, because we do feel that home away from home feeling when we are there. So it is very frustrating that if you happen to live in Florida, you can purchase an AP, but if you own DVC you cannot. Again, I am not looking for a discount or perk, but I do feel, that because DVC, at its foundation, is built upon a “welcome home” sentiment, that it is wrong for them not to offer an AP to those of us who purchased DVC when they do offer that to Florida Residents.

Each time we visit now, it reopens that frustration, because if we want to enjoy a couple of our most sentimental rides, or meals, we have to repurchase extremely expensive park tickets. Disney, please recognize that many of us DVC members, have chosen (at a large cost, DVC is not inexpensive) to make Disney our home away from home. If APs are available to FL residents, please make them available to DVC owners as well, and stand behind the message of “welcome home”.

 

[E2ME2]

If I was not fortunate enough to have renewed my APs in 2020, and retained them since, I would not have added on at BWV during this fire sale. We use DVC as our snow-bird-retirement, and have incrementally expanded our length of stay from 10+ days per year (pre-retirement 'til 2020) to 50 Nights in 2023, and with this latest add-on, are hoping to have 8-9 weeks booked in 2024. Prior to retirement we did the 12-month staggered reservations, and bought APs every 3 years. I would be extremely frustrated if I did not have my APs to use on a 50-60 night stay.
I know many DVC owners who are actively petitioning Disney to bring back the APs.
Disney Reconnaissance; If you're monitoring these boards covertly, PLEASE bring back APs!!

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I think that we often try to draw a line between DVC membership and APs for DVC members and then it gets summarily dismissed that 'most' DVC members are not AP holders, which is probably true.

It is my belief that the point that is missed is that it is what I call the 'base membership' that are not generally AP holders, and by 'base membership' I am talking about people that bought in at the minimum required points purchase at a given time and never added on. I suspect that this is the majority of DVC membership as a whole.

However, I also suspect that the ownership of APs goes up noticeably for owners that have 'added on' over the years. People generally add-on to do one of two things. They do this to increase the number of days they can travel per year or to increase room/accommodation size (or both). Since getting past 10+ park days per AP UY generally justifies its cost, it's easy to see why many members who have added on to increase their number of total travel days to WDW (This is us.) are frustrated with the loss of APs. It should, IMO, be equally easy to see how many of these types of owners may have the perception that their overall ownership value has been lessened by the lack of new AP sales when they cannot purchase APs now. To us, this is part and parcel of the value of owning DVC. Note that I am not talking about a 'perk' on price here, but rather the option to even just purchase an AP as any other American can (COULD). Please don't confuse my point on that.

I suspect there is a fuzzy line around the 150-200 point barrier where the owning of APs goes up noticeably because those families are likely traveling more than once a year which is where the value of APs kicks in. My guess is that these are the people most frustrated. And I suspect that the vast majority of the people that find boards like this belong to this group. Their investment is greater and they tend to try to find like-minded and invested people like them, which is why we often think this board is not representative of the general membership. It isn't. But it doesn't mean it isn't a large enough group to have a voice and an opinion.

Is the lack of APs contributing to the decline in sales? I don't know. Would you add-on to increase your number of trips per year right now knowing that you can't purchase a higher value AP ticket?

Our dvc guide told us that more than half of his sales were add on sales. That’s direct. I imagine for resale, the percentage is even higher. I really wonder if the majority of owners own one small contract. Also, many AP purchasers did not purchase APs every year. APs contributed to the flexibility of the dvc product (banking, borrowing). More than anything, I think removal of APs makes the product more rigid, emphasizing Disney’s new modus operandi. Disney wants to fit all their customers into one mold. They want to control how you vacation, how you organize your day when on vacation, when you go to the parks, what you do while you are there— and now ever more sinister, we know from leaked conference zoom calls that disney wants to control what you and especially your kids think. The APs are a big deal because people used them to structure their vacations. Removal of the AP wakes people up to all of the other ways disney is trying to control them. And ultimately most people don’t like nonsensical, bureaucratic over reach. And they don’t like ideological agendas, no matter what they are. People just want to vacation. And vacation doesn’t mean rigidity for most people. It’s why all the cruise lines have switched to flexible dining and casual wear. Lol

 

[RivShore]

I couldn't believe how much cheaper a Universal ticket is compared to a Disney one.

Are you talking only about AP's? Because from what I have seen, daily tickets are similar in price to WDW and recently someone listed all the add-ons at UO and it looked shockingly similar to WDW! They actually seemed more similar in (daily) cost than I had expected.

 

[DebbieB]

I am from PA and have had an AP since 1998. Bought DVC in 1999 with the plan of going twice a year, May and December, planning the trip the following year a week before expiration. So I was buying about every 18 months. I was lucky not to lose my AP but am now forced to renew every 12 months. It gives me the freedom to do some spontaneous trips. Last year we went down for 3 nights to do the DHS Moonlight Magic, staying at Pop. A couple weeks ago we did a 3 night weekend at POR for the Tron AP preview. Without an AP, it would get very expensive buying tickets. I have no interest in a resort only stay.

 

[karrit2000]

Are you talking only about AP's? Because from what I have seen, daily tickets are similar in price to WDW and recently someone listed all the add-ons at UO and it looked shockingly similar to WDW! They actually seemed more similar in (daily) cost than I had expected.

Nope not AP's
3 day WDW Parkhopper $505.96
5 day WDW Parkhopper $689.29
Universal deal on Park to Park 3 day + 2 days free $359.99
Regular Park to Park 3 day Universal $359.99
Regular Park to Park 5 day Universal $395.99

I get that there are two more parks to hop to @ WDW but the WDW prices are crazy. I priced them without any add-ons because I don't intend to spend the extra money on Genie+ or Universal's Express Pass which I admit is obscenely priced in comparison to Genie+.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Nope not AP's
3 day WDW Parkhopper $505.96
5 day WDW Parkhopper $689.29
Universal deal on Park to Park 3 day + 2 days free $359.99
Regular Park to Park 3 day Universal $359.99
Regular Park to Park 5 day Universal $395.99

I get that there are two more parks to hop to @ WDW but the WDW prices are crazy. I priced them without any add-ons because I don't intend to spend the extra money on Genie+ or Universal's Express Pass which I admit is obscenely priced in comparison to Genie+.

With express pass you get to ride any ride when you want as many times as you want, so it is a million times better than genie+! Universal also gives free express pass if you stay at one of their deluxe resorts. And premier annual pass comes with free express pass after 4pm.

 

[Cfabar1]

Does Universal offer Home-Away-From-Home accomadations like how Disney does? Do they offer ownership interests like how Disney does? (Genuinely curious)

 

[HIRyeDVC]

Does Universal offer Home-Away-From-Home accomadations like how Disney does? Do they offer ownership interests like how Disney does? (Genuinely curious)

no

 

[mz-s]

I don't really find the Universal and Disney products to be particularly comparable frankly.

 

[Like2Detail]

Ugh, I would do just about anything to see annual passes come back. I bought at Riviera direct in March of 2022 during a stay at Yacht. At that time I hadn't paid attention to the AP Pause. Been back in May, July, December and March all with 5 day tickets for 3 people. Have a 7 day trip scheduled for June. I don't even want to think about what I've spent on park tickets. I wouldn't change anything though, I'd still buy DVC again. It's the only place that I want to go, can't stand sitting on the beach doing nothing. Really didn't like Universal the one time we were there. Disney is a stress reliever for me, allows me to really forget about work and life for a week.

 

[Skywalker3]

I hope lack of APs will start affecting DVC sales, so they can rethink not letting DVC members buy them, even with no discount. We've booked our first resort only stay for this coming June, due to lack of APs. Going in October, and will be buying regular tickets for then, if no APs offered. Since buying DVC in 2011, we've always had APs for tickets, but didn't renew every year, and didn't after COVID. never in a million years thinking we'd not have a chance to buy again......We'd plan 2-3 trips in the years we had APs, then take off about a year-18 months. Live in TN, and always drive.
We'll see how we like just staying at a resort, doing other Orlando things, lots of Disney Springs stuff. We do have Universal booked also, and will be getting APs, since we'll also be doing HHN in Oct. Glad they offer them at least

 

[sheilafri]

From the sales side, numbers were good (some would say excellent) until fall 2022. That included nearly a year without any AP sales.

In the winter, direct sales have declined. But that decline has been coupled with a poor economy, massive direct price increase, falling resale prices and the looming start of VDH sales. If the only thing that changed was resumption of AP sales, I'm not convinced direct point sales would be significantly better.

And the same is true on the selling side. The volume of resale contracts has been building since February / March of last year. IMO it started with the usual seasonal increase that comes with dues bills arriving in January '22. Then it was compounded by things like Chapek, the whole HB 1557 thing, people realizing they didn't need as many points coming out of COVID, Disney reducing ROFR activity and surprisingly low launch day prices on VGF.

(Sidebar: think about this...when VGF sales re-opened in March 2022, a current member could add 200 points for as little as $186 each. At that same time, points for BWV and BCV were selling in the $170s-180s resale. You could flip a 2042 report for almost the same cost as a resort that doesn't expire until 2064--more than double the years--picking up all of the direct purchase benefits in the process. I know there are people who did exactly that. Or at least tried until prices began to fall in earnest.)

When someone decides to sell, I think there are a variety of factors which play into that decision. While lack of APs is probably one of those factors, I'm not sure that it's a tipping point for many owners. If AP sales resumed tomorrow, I don't think a lot of contracts would be pulled off the market with owners exclaiming "never mind, I'll keep all of my points now."

If sales were good until late ‘22 I wonder how the wind down to peoples’ reaction to Covid plays in. Would this be a time when people decided they wanted to go back to the parks and weren’t able to without great ticket expenses if they had let their APs lapse? I don’t know the answer, just wondering.

 

[kydisneyfans]

I used my AP to hit Epcot for the evening concerts during Wine and Dine and the spring events. This year I bought a Sea World AP to do the same thing. I could spend $160 to enter Epcot once, or $200 to do the same at Sea World all year. That takes my dining offsite too.

 

[Brian Noble]

And premier annual pass comes with free express pass after 4pm.

This is the "once-per-ride-per-day" version of Express, not the unlimited. Still an incredibly valuable perk during peak season. We used it during Orange County spring break, when both Disney and Universal were mobbed. We still had to wait a bit for some things, but it was much better than it would have been.

This pass also includes free valet parking. It's pretty cool to roll up to a spot right beside the mini-golf courses, drop off your keys, and head in. Unfortunately, it can fill up, and it also can be a bit of a wait to get your car back if you come back during a rush.

Does Universal offer Home-Away-From-Home accomadations like how Disney does? Do they offer ownership interests like how Disney does? (Genuinely curious)

No, but there are easily a dozen good-to-fantastic timeshare resorts within a 15 minute drive of the above-mentioned valet parking. We stayed at Marriott Cypress Harbour during our most recent visit. Lovely resort. We've also stayed at the Hilton Grand Vacations Sea World, which is just a smidge closer, but I like the Marriott just a bit more.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

This is the "once-per-ride-per-day" version of Express, not the unlimited. Still an incredibly valuable perk during peak season. We used it during Orange County spring break, when both Disney and Universal were mobbed. We still had to wait a bit for some things, but it was much better than it would have been.

This pass also includes free valet parking. It's pretty cool to roll up to a spot right beside the mini-golf courses, drop off your keys, and head in. Unfortunately, it can fill up, and it also can be a bit of a wait to get your car back if you come back during a rush.


No, but there are easily a dozen good-to-fantastic timeshare resorts within a 15 minute drive of the above-mentioned valet parking. We stayed at Marriott Cypress Harbour during our most recent visit. Lovely resort. We've also stayed at the Hilton Grand Vacations Sea World, which is just a smidge closer, but I like the Marriott just a bit more.

Actually the express pass that comes with the premier annual pass allows you to go into any express line as many times as you want after 4pm. They don’t even usually scan your pass so there would be no way for them to know if you’ve already gone on a particular ride. We rode gringots a couple of times express every night we were there. Our kids’ fav ride.

It does come with valet but we never used it. It also comes with premier parking which allows you to park for free in prime locations in the lot. Great deal overall.