How is FP+ making other lines longer?

[Love Tink]

Disney is 'leveling the playing field'. But more than that, they've added something better than before. The ability of people to skip the line on rides and attractions that THEY care about...not just the ones that "most people" care about.

Plus we have all gained the ability to skip lines on rides and attractions that "nobody" cares about.

 

[JeremyGNJ]

No. Actually it is not "this". If you go to Touring Plans and look at the historical data (not theory) concerning wait times, you will find that rides that used FP- and now use FP+ may have very comparable wait times in relation to 2014. But if you look at rides that did not use FP- but now utilize FP+, the wait times have increased significantly. This cannot be attributed to an overall growth in attendance, (which no data supports). If crowd growth were the answer, then the rising tide would lift all boats. But the exponential line growth at IASW, HM, POTC and Spaceship Earth tell a different story.

So you're saying there aren't more people in the park, but there's more people going on rides?

That's the only way there could be a net increase of wait times.

 

[doctornick]

So you're saying there aren't more people in the park, but there's more people going on rides?

That's the only way there could be a net increase of wait times.

I think that this is a factor that does indeed come into play. I would expect that folks who previously did not use or would not have used paper FP and are now using FP+ are using that "time saved" going on rides and going on more rides in a day than previously. Since there is a lot of guests where using 3 FP+ is a significant increase from the 0-2 paper FP they were using in a day, it means a lot of potential guests who are going on more rides and increasing the wait times even more than the effect of FP+ people "cutting in line" ahead of standby.

 

[JimmyV]

So you're saying there aren't more people in the park, but there's more people going on rides?

That's the only way there could be a net increase of wait times.

The net increase is not the question here. It is the length of the SB line. We used a FP for BTMRR and the people using the FP return in the afternoon occupied the field in terms of ride capacity. The people in the SB line didn't move for a solid 20 minutes. Not an inch. They started chanting like they were on a prison ship begging (demanding) to be helped. The ride wasn't accommodating any more people than before. The difference was that all of the riders came from the FP line. That doesn't mean that there were more people in the park. There were just more FPs floating around. We know that there are more FPs in use. That is all that is needed to make the SB lines bog down, not more people.

 

[xie]

No. Actually it is not "this". If you go to Touring Plans and look at the historical data (not theory) concerning wait times, you will find that rides that used FP- and now use FP+ may have very comparable wait times in relation to 2014. But if you look at rides that did not use FP- but now utilize FP+, the wait times have increased significantly. This cannot be attributed to an overall growth in attendance, (which no data supports). If crowd growth were the answer, then the rising tide would lift all boats. But the exponential line growth at IASW, HM, POTC and Spaceship Earth tell a different story.

Yep this is one of the things I find most interesting about whatever has jacked up the whole system.

Rides that never had FP before, and also never had much of a wait before... now are backed up to heck and gone.

They were able to push through all the riders who wanted to ride that attraction while maintaining low wait times before. Now they can't.

My husband and I used to joke (and marvel) at Disney's crowd management skills. We used to think they were pretty good at it. FP+ has unfortunately shown us that they aren't good at it - they were just getting lucky before. They didn't understand what they had, made changes to it, and broke it.

 

[sethschroeder]

From reading some of this it goes back to my thought that if wait times go up on previous FP- rides they are giving out too many FP+. As the example earlier about the wait doesn't take into account that that was always how it worked....

My biggest question is how many FP+ vs FP- are given out? If there is issues with wait times for historical FP- rides they just need to dial back the amount given out no? Make the math like before and you will see waits go back no?

 

[MrInfinity]

IF FP+ means I am willing to actually try to ride more rides on the other hand ... then I really do become more "riders" ... and I think this might be the case, even if It means I try to cram in one more ride than I used to, maybe it means I stay in the park a little longer, maybe by forcing the spacing out of FP+s it keeps people in the park a little longer, or makes people hop on another ride while waiting for that last FP+ ... this will have a dramatic impact on increasing ride times.

I do like this line of thought, and have been mulling over the chance that overall demand may actually be UP because more people have more discretionary time, and thus are opting to ride an extra ride. I do believe there is some choice here for most guests, along the lines of...

"I used to wait for 5 rides a day. Now that I can get on 3 pretty fast, I'm willing to wait for a 6th ride" thus you have higher consumption of riding by most guests.

However we also have to consider the commando that used to go on 12 rides a day who now says "this sucks, I used to be able to get on 12, now because typical guests are using FP+, I only get on 8".

So which effect is greater? I would assert they are leading to more guests wanting to ride a little more, plus commandos not wanting to ride less, (albeit being forced to) thus the queues could be seeing an overall increase in demand due to more people wanting to ride a little more.

I'm kind of leaning that way. But there's so much subjectivity in this line it's hard to prove.

I do believe that overall we are seeing the standby lines taking longer. This could be because FP+ is empowering more riders to target on average slightly more rides. This increased demand could be significant enough to raise waits overall.

Plus there is the added bit, which I'm kinda surprised you haven't mentioned, that because Disney can push more guests thru the turnstyles, that is yet more ppl using FP+ than entered the parks under FP-.

 

[xie]

From reading some of this it goes back to my thought that if wait times go up on previous FP- rides they are giving out too many FP+. As the example earlier about the wait doesn't take into account that that was always how it worked....

My biggest question is how many FP+ vs FP- are given out? If there is issues with wait times for historical FP- rides they just need to dial back the amount given out no? Make the math like before and you will see waits go back no?

Nobody knows how many passes (of + or - type) are given out, except Disney. And they aren't telling.

It's probably a safe assumption that MORE are being given out now, than were before, primarily because before, only a percentage of guests bothered with the paper passes. Now, they are actively trying their best to give every guest 3 passes. They start pushing onsite guests about it months beforehand (I can't tell you how much paper mail they have wasted sending to our home about MyMagic and FP+), in addition to the email junk they keep sending, and the push to sign up for your FP+s continues as you check into your resort. And every single day guest is prompted to go to a FP kiosk from the minute they go to the ticket window to buy onward, in every interaction with a CM.

However, other than a fairly obvious assumption that the total number of Fast Passes being distributed per day is higher now than it was with paper, there's no way to know exactly how many paper ones ever went out.

I suppose if they close a park for capacity, and we know what "capacity" is for that park, we can do the math Capacity*3 and determine how many FP+ are distributed on a soft or hard closure day.

 

[Shaden]

I do like this line of thought, and have been mulling over the chance that overall demand may actually be UP because more people have more discretionary time, and thus are opting to ride an extra ride. I do believe there is some choice here for most guests, along the lines of...

"I used to wait for 5 rides a day. Now that I can get on 3 pretty fast, I'm willing to wait for a 6th ride" thus you have higher consumption of riding by most guests.

However we also have to consider the commando that used to go on 12 rides a day who now says "this sucks, I used to be able to get on 12, now because typical guests are using FP+, I only get on 8".

So which effect is greater? I would assert they are leading to more guests wanting to ride a little more, plus commandos not wanting to ride less, (albeit being forced to) thus the queues could be seeing an overall increase in demand due to more people wanting to ride a little more.

I'm kind of leaning that way. But there's so much subjectivity in this line it's hard to prove.

I do believe that overall we are seeing the standby lines taking longer. This could be because FP+ is empowering more riders to target on average slightly more rides. This increased demand could be significant enough to raise waits overall.

Plus there is the added bit, which I'm kinda surprised you haven't mentioned, that because Disney can push more guests thru the turnstyles, that is yet more ppl using FP+ than entered the parks under FP-.

Some good thinking indeed, you have very much refined your "fuzzy" logic quite well.

I think it is much more likely that first timers and non-commandos greatly out number the FP masters. So I would wager it is much more likely that they would increase demands on the ride more than the person who pulls fewer FPs decreases demand on the rides.

That last point is quite interesting. I also wondering what the impact is of the morning RD afternoon FP in less busy park has in the whole scale and the number of "riders" If this has even increased at all, which I am not convinced it has ... most guests don't know enough to do this.

BUT, your other thought, the idea that people might cycle into and out of the parks faster, that could have a major impact.

If you have a bunch of people, who cycle in for their 3 FPs, and then leave soon after, especially if they use them wisely. Ie: Book FPs 11:30-12:30, 12:30 - 1:30 and 1:30 - 2:30.

Well, if I did that at MK, and booked all head liners. I could walk in just in time to hit Space at 12:30, walk over to Thunder, Ride it, maybe pop to pirates, hit that up, and then slide back to splash to hit right at 2:30. Now, if the average waits for those headliners is 60 mins, and I just did all three in 2 hours, someone else has to suck up my wait time.

Even if they don't use them all that wisely, as long as you are cycling people into the park with FPs, and when they leave they are replaced by more people with FPs, the standby lines are going to back up like mad for anyone who is "out" of FPs.

 

[DPCummerbund]

Even if they don't use them all that wisely, as long as you are cycling people into the park with FPs, and when they leave they are replaced by more people with FPs, the standby lines are going to back up like mad for anyone who is "out" of FPs.

This could be true, but there's a question you have to ask about these people: where did they come from? Each person through the gate counts in the attendance figures, no matter how long they stay, and the attendance figures aren't showing this tremendous growth.

If a change attendance isn't enough to count for all the subjective experiences of longer lines, and we have no evidence of a dropoff in ride capacity, then one of four things must happening:
A) Guests overall are riding more attractions than before,
B) Wait times are being reporportioned in ways that favor "non-commandos"
C) Ride times have increased for some rides while decreasing for others
D) It's simply a matter of perception / selective memory.

To start with D: it's Spring Break week right now. I've noticed that over the past few months, the "Epic Wait" threads have come during peak travel periods. Regardless of the other factors, this may be coming into effect for many people, and at least influencing their results.

As to C: people have mentioned HM, Pirates, and other popular attractions as having longer lines. It's possible that some less popular attractions have shorter lines. Despite all the wait-counting websites out there, it's really hard to count actual capacities and compare one day to another from a previous year.

As to B: I really think this counts for a lot. Fuzzylogic and others have hit the nail on the head here, but the math is unassailable. As to WHY they are riding more rides than they did before, I'd guess the following: many "casual" guests probably used to spend hours in standby lines, and now they don't have to - the new system is more accessible, easier to understand, and easier to use than the old FP- system. I've read many posts on this forum where casual guests were heard to comment about how they wish they could afford fastpasses, or something like that. Also, few other regional amusement parks have similar systems, so casual guests are probably much more likely to accept several-hour waits as a matter of course. They might also have been uninterested in running all over the parks commando-style to collect FP-. It's very possible that the FP+ system is more obvious and transparent than the old FP- for the casual guest.

As to A: This option also makes sense. In effect, access to the FP+ system has turned some casual park-goers into "commandos". Again, others have done the math, but here's a simple variation. Let's say some casual guests want to spend 6 hours in the park, and the standby line is 2 hours long at 3 major attractions. So, they go on 3 rides in 6 hours, and go home. Now, with their 3 FP+, they get those rides done in 3 hours, and they have 3 more hours to kill. So, they go on more rides. Are they "happier" than they were before? More importantly, are they more likely to come back more often and spend more money? Probably.

So, I think several different factors could be causing the perception of longer lines. However, I still don't see any explanation for the general complaint that "FP+ causes longer lines." That just doesn't seem to hold water.

 

[Shaden]

This could be true, but there's a question you have to ask about these people: where did they come from? Each person through the gate counts in the attendance figures, no matter how long they stay, and the attendance figures aren't showing this tremendous growth.

If a change attendance isn't enough to count for all the subjective experiences of longer lines, and we have no evidence of a dropoff in ride capacity, then one of four things must happening:
A) Guests overall are riding more attractions than before,
B) Wait times are being reporportioned in ways that favor "non-commandos"
C) Ride times have increased for some rides while decreasing for others
D) It's simply a matter of perception / selective memory.

To start with D: it's Spring Break week right now. I've noticed that over the past few months, the "Epic Wait" threads have come during peak travel periods. Regardless of the other factors, this may be coming into effect for many people, and at least influencing their results.

As to C: people have mentioned HM, Pirates, and other popular attractions as having longer lines. It's possible that some less popular attractions have shorter lines. Despite all the wait-counting websites out there, it's really hard to count actual capacities and compare one day to another from a previous year.

As to B: I really think this counts for a lot. Fuzzylogic and others have hit the nail on the head here, but the math is unassailable. As to WHY they are riding more rides than they did before, I'd guess the following: many "casual" guests probably used to spend hours in standby lines, and now they don't have to - the new system is more accessible, easier to understand, and easier to use than the old FP- system. I've read many posts on this forum where casual guests were heard to comment about how they wish they could afford fastpasses, or something like that. Also, few other regional amusement parks have similar systems, so casual guests are probably much more likely to accept several-hour waits as a matter of course. They might also have been uninterested in running all over the parks commando-style to collect FP-. It's very possible that the FP+ system is more obvious and transparent than the old FP- for the casual guest.

As to A: This option also makes sense. In effect, access to the FP+ system has turned some casual park-goers into "commandos". Again, others have done the math, but here's a simple variation. Let's say some casual guests want to spend 6 hours in the park, and the standby line is 2 hours long at 3 major attractions. So, they go on 3 rides in 6 hours, and go home. Now, with their 3 FP+, they get those rides done in 3 hours, and they have 3 more hours to kill. So, they go on more rides. Are they "happier" than they were before? More importantly, are they more likely to come back more often and spend more money? Probably.

So, I think several different factors could be causing the perception of longer lines. However, I still don't see any explanation for the general complaint that "FP+ causes longer lines." That just doesn't seem to hold water.

Everything you just said indicates that FP+ causes longer lines ...

 

[Shaden]

There are two primary reasons why this causes longer lines, but not necessarily longer "average waits"

1) people really may be riding more rides, which makes each person count for more "riders" as you say, you knock off 3 attractions with no wait, and then still spend your normal 6 hours in the park, ... or the spacing of your FP+s makes you hang around the park longer than you would ... you become more "riders" than you were before, increasing demand.

2) IF 1) didn't pan out, there would still be longer LINES, but not longer average waits necessarily.

Capacity doesn't change, and we are assuming here FP+ hasn't effected demand (though I think it has), But, now the 50% of people who didn't use a single FP before are almost all (Disney says 90%) using it. So they are now skipping 1 or 2 or 3 lines.

Capacity can't change, if they are skipping a 30 min wait that wait has to be redistributed.

The simplest way to look at this is to imagine if before FP+ no one used it, everyone rode 6 rides, and the wait was always 30 mins. After FP+ everyone used it, skipped 3 lines.

Ok, That means that after FP+ the average standby wait time is now 1 hour, instead of 30 mins, your average wait is the same, 30 mins per ride, but the LINES are longer.

Though again, I think scenario 1 is much more likely.

 

[Luckybee]

If what I've read gen'l on here is correct then fp has made the lines longer for us and will affect our experience. We were not ride commandos, only once have we arrived at rd. We dont go to D during super busy periods so we were always able to get a few (3-5) fp's for rides in a day, and could walk on perhaps 4-5 more(or have a comfortable wait of perhaps 5-10 minutes). We would then leave happy having done somewhere around 7-10 rides . Now we'll get 3, and then likely call it a day because we will not stand in a 30 min + line to ride a 5 minute or less ride.
The fact of the m,atter is with fp if one did not wish to wait in long lines they could always find attractions that didnt have them. Now thats impossible unless you get there super early

 

[DPCummerbund]

Everything you just said indicates that FP+ causes longer lines ...

There are two primary reasons why this causes longer lines, but not necessarily longer "average waits"

Perhaps I should start over.

I think the main question being addressed in this thread - and the essential point I was trying to make by asking the specific question in my own thread - is to figure out whether the following is true:

"FP+ is a terrible system, a giant mistake by Disney, and it should be scrapped because it makes the lines longer. Everyone is waiting MORE, and riding LESS."

I think it's fair to say that most people on the DIS hate the new system. And the nature of most threads indicates that people aren't just saying that "It's a bad system for me personally," but rather that it's an inherently flawed system for EVERYONE, because it makes everyone's experiences worse.

I (and several other posters in this thread) have pointed out that if you look at the numbers, that just can't be true.

In general, I'd say it's a much fairer system that allocates rides equally to everyone, rather than specifically benefiting the group of "commandos" who knew how to work the system and ride the most rides.

So, I can see how the commandos are mad, but the average and more casual fans are much better off under the new system.

 

[Disneylover99]

In general, I'd say it's a much fairer system that allocates rides equally to everyone, rather than specifically benefiting the group of "commandos" who knew how to work the system and ride the most rides.

So, I can see how the commandos are mad, but the average and more casual fans are much better off under the new system.

Unfortunately fairer doesn't necessarily equal more efficient.

The average, casual guest or first timer may perceive this new system as the best thing ever because they get to choose their attraction and time, but the reality is that wait times are up because of this new system.

The only people who are better off, are people that just go on the three FP attractions they have booked and that's it. How many people just go on three rides at MK? Very few. So how many people does the new system benefit? Very few.

 

[JeremyGNJ]

Unfortunately fairer doesn't necessarily equal more efficient.

The average, casual guest or first timer may perceive this new system as the best thing ever because they get to choose their attraction and time, but the reality is that wait times are up because of this new system.

The only people who are better off, are people that just go on the three FP attractions they have booked and that's it. How many people just go on three rides at MK? Very few. So how many people does the new system benefit? Very few.

You're missing the point here. No one goes on "just 3 rides a day". What the numbers are actually saying is that most visitors go on MORE rides now than before. That's why commandos are upset about longer lines on the secondary-attractions they used to breeze through (and shorter lines on the headliners)

 

[KatieCharlotte]

You're missing the point here. No one goes on "just 3 rides a day". What the numbers are actually saying is that most visitors go on MORE rides now than before. That's why commandos are upset about longer lines on the secondary-attractions they used to breeze through (and shorter lines on the headliners)

First, there are many people who fall into your "commando" category. Was it so bad that people who only had one day in that park and people who enjoy rides more got to ride more, while more relaxed guests had the experience they were looking for? How many people who wouldn't have understood legacy FP and felt frustrated are actually having better experiences now? Disney is not trying to teach which FP are most valuable.

There is some evidence to suggest that, at least on certain rides that did not previously have FP,(especially POTC) FP+ has resulted in less efficient loading, so that fewer people are actually able to ride per hour, causing lines to build up. This may only increase waits by ten minutes, but 25 min versus 35 min feels very different.

At tiered parks and AK, parks full of shows and other non-ride attractions, evidence and logic suggests that guests are getting FP+ and keeping their appointments for rides they might not otherwise have gotten to. That's great if they like the ride; not so great if they're bored and people who truly love the ride have to wait. A Star Wars fan's happiness at riding ST twice is greater than a non-fan riding once and feeling a little sick.

Waiting for people to scan their MB in the FP+ line can create frustration, even in people who are actually waiting less. I won't even mention how it would feel to wait for a kiosk.

Edited to add: it is possible to analyze negative consequences of FP+ while because I will be at MK in a week.

 

[mom2rtk]

4

Waiting for people to scan their MB in the FP+ line can create frustration, even in people who are actually waiting less. I won't even mention how it would feel to wait for a kiosk.

........... and nobody has had to do this in the summer sun yet.

Or maybe standby is preferable in the summer because it will get you into the a/c longer?

 

[Disneylover99]

You're missing the point here. No one goes on "just 3 rides a day". What the numbers are actually saying is that most visitors go on MORE rides now than before. That's why commandos are upset about longer lines on the secondary-attractions they used to breeze through (and shorter lines on the headliners)

That is my point. People are going on more rides now. That doesn't benefit commandos or the casual visitor. It's just making lines longer for everyone.

 

[MuddyTires]

Lots of people rushing to a lot of conclusions and making sweeping determinations based on exremely limited and incomplete information from a very short period of time considered in a vacuum.

Sounds like the government.