How does vandalism and looting accomplish anything???

He shouldn't have been shown as an angel, it's likely he wasn't. I think part of the problem is he's dead and who ever talks bad about someone who just does? Of course his family and friends are going to talk about what a good kid he was. That's what they are thinking about.

Also, stealing cigars from a store hardly makes him some hardcore criminal who is a danger to society and needed to be shot in the street.

The truth is all people are flawed and can be painted as great or list depending on who is doing the talking

Clearly, the shooting is directly related to his assault on a police officer. While that in & of itself isn't justification for him being shot after the fact (as reported), it's also a whole lot different than simple petty theft. Add that to the assault on the clerk, and you are definitely talking about a dangerous person.
 
Around here Chili's sells alcohol . . . So they are a bar too. Some of us are so old, and look it, that we never get carded. ;). Might just be the case with a pp.

The video of the robbery was another store. But maybe all convenience stores look alike.
Chili's HAS a bar. It is classified as a restaurant because the food receipts are over a certain percentage (60%). Therefore, they are not subject to the same rules and regulations
 
He shouldn't have been shown as an angel, it's likely he wasn't. I think part of the problem is he's dead and who ever talks bad about someone who just does? Of course his family and friends are going to talk about what a good kid he was. That's what they are thinking about.

Also, stealing cigars from a store hardly makes him some hardcore criminal who is a danger to society and needed to be shot in the street.

The truth is all people are flawed and can be painted as great or list depending on who is doing the talking

We are all flawed. The thief asked for cigars. The clerk grabbed package to show him. He grabbed the package. As he was leaving, another store clerk tried to block his way and Brown manhandled him. You can see that clerk looks frightened.
Also, the picture with Brown lying in the street seems to show that he is wearing identical clothing to the robber. I won't post that picture as it's graphic. It is out there for anyone who wants to compare the clothing in the pictures.


It also looks like the officer might be justified in shooting according to Missouri law:
Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 563
Defense of Justification
Section 563.046

August 28, 2013


Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.

563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

(L. 1977 S.B. 60)


Don't shoot the messenger.
 
I'm white. My brother is a cop and my father is a retired cop. For the majority of my life I've lived and worked in a predominantly black area. And, much like Eliza, I have the same general feeling that police are not trustworthy.

Posters on this thread, and people in general, seem to fall into one of two categories in how they perceive police (police as a whole, not individuals): A) Most officers are good people but there will always be a few bad apples, or, B) Surely there are still a few good officers, but overall there is a systemic problem of them abusing their power and they cannot be trusted. I think which category a person falls into depends less on that person's skin color and more on the police environment in their area. If you have lived your whole life in a place where the police you've encountered are easy-going, friendly neighborhood officers, you'll hear about police brutality incidents on the news and think "That's one of the bad apples." If you live in an area where the police act like an oppressive force looking for and causing problems, you'll think "Not surprising, this is what cops do."

I try really hard to give police the benefit of the doubt and remind myself of the 'few bad apples' possibility but, the more time goes on, and the more opportunities I've had to witness police interactions firsthand, the harder it is for me to believe that. For a few years I worked in a club that had 8-12 on-duty officers working as security each night and believe me, not a shift went by that I wasn't thankful to be one of the 'us' (in the eyes of the officers, being that I was an employee) versus being one of 'them' (the customers). There were nights that the police showed up for their shifts hyped up about being "in a mood today" and "looking forward to beating the crap out of someone". I watched a cop escort a customer out of the building through a double door. Instead of walking the man through the one door that was open, the cop pushed him through the glass of the door that was closed. Not because the man was struggling, just because he could. The officers all had a good laugh about it later that night as we were waiting for the glass company to come out and replace the glass. I watched one of the officers punch a handcuffed man so hard in his face that several teeth came flying out of his mouth. The cop took off the cuffs and told the man to pick up his teeth or he would ticket him for littering. I watched the officers beat a man unconscious and then pepper spray him to get him to regain consciousness. The man, lying on the ground outside the building, would come to for a minute and then pass out again. At which point, the officer would resume dousing his face with pepper spray. When the ambulance showed up the officer turned them away even though the man was still unconscious. The ambulance left and the cop and victim continued the cycle of pepper spray, wake up, pass out, pepper spray... This went on for twenty minutes. And I can't tell you how many times the officers would sit around at the end of the night drinking, getting hammered, and then run out of the building and speed off in their cruisers when a call came in.

I could go on and on with examples but the point is, these are some of my experiences that shape my view of police mentality and their culture of brutality and abuse of power. None of these incidents ever made the news and none of the officers ever got in trouble. Honestly, I doubt any of these incidents were even reported. Around here, that's just what police do, and both sides understand that. If you're lucky enough to live in an area where the police really do protect and serve, that's great. But understand that different police departments have different environments and attitudes. To say that the black community mistrusts the police because they're black is incorrect. If a black community mistrusts the police it's because the police in their area have shown them over and over why they don't deserve to be trusted.
 

We are all flawed. The thief asked for cigars. The clerk grabbed package to show him. He grabbed the package. As he was leaving, another store clerk tried to block his way and Brown manhandled him. You can see that clerk looks frightened.
Also, the picture with Brown lying in the street seems to show that he is wearing identical clothing to the robber. I won't post that picture as it's graphic. It is out there for anyone who wants to compare the clothing in the pictures.


It also looks like the officer might be justified in shooting according to Missouri law:
Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 563
Defense of Justification
Section 563.046

August 28, 2013


Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.

563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

(L. 1977 S.B. 60)


Don't shoot the messenger.

But the Ferguson PD Chief just said the police officer didn't know of the robbery. I doubt that walking in the street is a felony in MO.
 
Doesn't matter, it is easier to make-up excuses for why the victim deserved it than to look at fixing the system.

I have no idea whether or not the shooting was justified; that will come out in the investigation.

But the facts revealed today certainly don't align with the narrative pushed by the young man's family, the media, and some on this thread, namely that these two guys were walking down the street, minding their own business until they were racially profiled and harassed by some redneck cop. And given how the video shows Michael Brown assaulting the clerk in the store, is there any reason to doubt that he might assault or attempt to assault the police officer that caught him? Not saying that he did or didn't, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

Of course he is quick to judge the kid's behavior but complains when someone suggests the trained professional was in the wrong when he shot an unarmed kid, with his hands up, at least seven time.

The number of shots is the key in my mind, this was not a controlled act...so the officer either acted out of anger, frustration, or hatred. 35 feet away and unarmed with hands in the air we can rule out fear.

Unless you were there, you really have no idea if any of this is correct or not. Absent a full investigation, I'm personally not prepared to judge the actions of a police officer based on the statements of an admitted thief.

It remains to be seen whether or not the shooting was justified, but one thing is certain - had Michael Brown not made the decision to assault someone and steal, he wouldn't have been shot that day.
 
/
I'm going to get flamed, but hey. Innocent until proven guilty... That goes for the guy shot, as well as the people shooting. The violence from both sides has been ridiculous, and unhelpful, in finding out who is guilty. Once things die down, I hope there's an investigation from an outside source.
 
I'm going to get flamed, but hey. Innocent until proven guilty... That goes for the guy shot, as well as the people shooting. The violence from both sides has been ridiculous, and unhelpful, in finding out who is guilty. Once things die down, I hope there's an investigation from an outside source.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal construct, so in a legal sense, yes, both young men in the store are innocent. But there's no doubt that as a matter of fact, they they were guilty of stealing, and if that's Michael Brown in the video, which it appears to be, he was guilty of a assault as well.
 
Wow. The guy with Brown admitted the incident. Unbelievable, some still don't believe it is him

They can't admit to believing it - doesn't fit their narrative.

His parents' attorney is whining that they are besmirching his character by showing people that he was a thief.

But they have no problem with besmirching the character of the police officer.
 
He shouldn't have been shown as an angel, it's likely he wasn't. I think part of the problem is he's dead and who ever talks bad about someone who just does? Of course his family and friends are going to talk about what a good kid he was. That's what they are thinking about.

Also, stealing cigars from a store hardly makes him some hardcore criminal who is a danger to society and needed to be shot in the street.

The truth is all people are flawed and can be painted as great or list depending on who is doing the talking


Implying that he had a gun during the robbery would make the officer assume he was armed during the stop.
 
But the Ferguson PD Chief just said the police officer didn't know of the robbery. I doubt that walking in the street is a felony in MO.
:lmao:
No walking is not a felony. If the officer didn't know about the robbery, the statutes probably won't apply. I am not a lawyer and cannot finesse the law the way they can.

Again, I have no idea if the shooting was justified or not, but if you want to see what happens when people get so emotionally invested in a position based on preliminary information and then new information is revealed that challenges initial assertions, I give you Exhibit A: Ferguson residents say that it isn't Brown in the video and it was "Photoshopped".

I do photo editing and if that picture is photoshopped, I'll eat my camera or a cookie shaped like it. :)
 
Implying that he had a gun during the robbery would make the officer assume he was armed during the stop.

This is what the Ferguson police chief has said regarding the robbery:

***Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson on Friday said the police officer who shot and killed Michael Brown was not aware that the unarmed 18-year-old was accused of robbing a convenience store just minutes before the shooting.

Jackson said that "the initial contact with Brown was not related to the robbery." Jackson also clarified that Darren Wilson, the officer who shot and killed Brown, wasn't even responding to a call about the robbery as initially reported. Wilson instead stopped Brown because he was jaywalking.***
 
I'll be interested in seeing the results of the toxicology tests. If you've just assaulted a clerk and stolen the property of others, why would you walk down the middle of the street, thus bringing attention to yourself?

And if the police officer didn't ask about the theft, why not just get out of the street when asked to?
 
Implying that he had a gun during the robbery would make the officer assume he was armed during the stop.

The stop had nothing to do with any robbery, the officer didn't know there was a robbery. That's according to the FPD Chief. If anything, it's all part of the defense strategy for the officer.
 
Clearly, the shooting is directly related to his assault on a police officer. While that in & of itself isn't justification for him being shot after the fact (as reported), it's also a whole lot different than simple petty theft. Add that to the assault on the clerk, and you are definitely talking about a dangerous person.

His assault on a police officer? Yeah nice try. That is something we simply don't know.

If I remember correctly you talked about your younger days and getting into quite a few fights before. I guess if someone wanted they could describe you as having assaulted people and paint you as dangerous. I mean that's what you are doing here right? Petty theft and shoving of a clerk (which is completely wrong but I know that's the point you all will jump on) actually means extremely dangerous criminal.
It just seems laughable coming from a guy who has discussed his history with getting into fights.
 
Implying that he had a gun during the robbery would make the officer assume he was armed during the stop.

Who said he had a gun durung the robbery? There is no gun in those stills. He didn't point a gun at the clerk. It says a "strong armed robbery" which implies no weapon.
 













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