How do you feel about this? Columbine Parents...

I never saw that account of their final videotape before. I probably shouldn't have read it, since it made me angry all over again. The bottom line was, whatever their problems, they both knew right from wrong, and they both knew they were going to hurt their families, but they went ahead with their evil plan anyway, because they were so caught up in inflicting pain. You could sort of understand if they had gone after people who'd hurt them or their friends, but they just wanted to kill people indiscriminately. They would have made perfect Hitler youth if they'd been born in that era.

Well, this quote from the text clears up whether the parents got any clues as to what was coming:

"They talk about the day Harris' parents found the tackle box -- and took only the pipe bombs out of it."

The parents were clueless. Finding pipe bombs doesn't warrant some intense scrutiny?? Maybe that's one of the reasons the parents of some of the victims feel they are owed an apology.
 
Originally posted by LauraR
Well, this quote from the text clears up whether the parents got any clues as to what was coming:

"They talk about the day Harris' parents found the tackle box -- and took only the pipe bombs out of it."

The parents were clueless. Finding pipe bombs doesn't warrant some intense scrutiny?? Maybe that's one of the reasons the parents of some of the victims feel they are owed an apology.

THANK YOU! That made me crazy! And the Dad answered the phone and they said "Your clips are in," and he said "I didn't order any clips." OMG, it's sooo sooo sad. And scary.
I hugged and kissed my 3 boys extra times tonight after reading that web site. My oldest will be 12 and I'm constantly grilling him about what's going on at school, how are his friends, etc. I feel like Harris sucked Klebold in and that makes me extra sad. But who knows, we'll never know the whole truth.

I just wish these kids in high school that feel they're at the end of their ropes could just understand that high school is only one tiny, miniscule part of your life. It really does get better after that. A lot of my high school experience was less than fabulous, however I was not horribly bullied or ridiculed. I wasn't the richest or the prettiest, and Freshman year was tough, but by Sophomore year, I found great friends that I fit in with. Some I'm still friends with today. And college was FABULOUS. High School sucks and I dread it for my son in 2 years. :(
 
I was bullied in school as were my 2 dd's. My 2nd dd ended up hurting one of the boys that was bothering her. The jocks of course were the favourite ones and if you weren't that you did not exist. Oh and talking to the authorities at the school???? what a joke. I was always told that kids would be kids but you know what? Bullying really did a job on me and my self esteem that is still now very good even today.
tigercat
 
http://www.breggin.com/luvox.html

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http://www.happinessonline.org/BeTemperate/p1.htm

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http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&star...om/2002-09-04-DenverPost-Columbine.htm&e=7627

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Several web sites (and there are quite a few more) indicating that Eric Harris was taking antidepressants at the time of the Columbine rampage..

If his parents were unaware and unconcerned with his behavior, where did the antidepressants come from?

Last time I checked you can not get them at the candy counter at Walmart..
 

Originally posted by C.Ann
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Yes I do realize the difference between an opinion piece and facts.. So basically what you are saying is that anyone interviewed for this article that stated opinions that don't agree with your own can be tossed aside - correct?

When there are direct quotes, I don't believe those areas fall under the guidelines of "supposition" - unless it doesn't fit your preconceived notions..

Have I read the "actual investigation"? Would that be anything like the "actual investigation" of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey? Ever hear of CYA ??
No, I am saying that the article does not offer anything that goes outside the parameters of justifying the opinion of the writer. It is totally biased by that fact. A similar article could have been written with a totally different theory and had just a many direct quotes to support it. The author leads the audience. I have read many articles where people were stunned that either boy would do anything like this, they called them both 'nice' and 'accepted'. I just do not go with opinion pieces to gather information.

When I talk about the investigation, I am referring to actual statements by people who were THERE that day, the written and videotaped diaries of the actual killers. The focus wasn't on jocks or anyone who bullied them.
 
Originally posted by C.Ann
http://www.breggin.com/luvox.html

----------------------------------

http://www.happinessonline.org/BeTemperate/p1.htm

---------------------------------------

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&star...om/2002-09-04-DenverPost-Columbine.htm&e=7627

----------------------------------------

Several web sites (and there are quite a few more) indicating that Eric Harris was taking antidepressants at the time of the Columbine rampage..

If his parents were unaware and unconcerned with his behavior, where did the antidepressants come from?

Last time I checked you can not get them at the candy counter at Walmart..
LOL, I never said they were unaware or unconcerned. I said they didn't do ENOUGH to stop this from happening. I think the fact that these kids went in fully loaded with weapons pretty much shows they weren't watching closely enough.
 
Originally posted by poohandwendy
LOL, I never said they were unaware or unconcerned. I said they didn't do ENOUGH to stop this from happening. I think the fact that these kids went in fully loaded with weapons pretty much shows they weren't watching closely enough.
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How much - or "what" - is "enough"? The fact that Harris was on medication shows that he was being "treated" in some way, shape or form, so unless you have some inside information you really don't know what else was being done or not being done..
 
Originally posted by poohandwendy
No, I am saying that the article does not offer anything that goes outside the parameters of justifying the opinion of the writer. It is totally biased by that fact. A similar article could have been written with a totally different theory and had just a many direct quotes to support it. The author leads the audience. I have read many articles where people were stunned that either boy would do anything like this, they called them both 'nice' and 'accepted'. I just do not go with opinion pieces to gather information.

When I talk about the investigation, I am referring to actual statements by people who were THERE that day, the written and videotaped diaries of the actual killers. The focus wasn't on jocks or anyone who bullied them.
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You are 100% correct in that an author of an article can intentionally (or unintentionally) put his or her own spin on a subject, but when I read an article (opinion piece or not) I form my own opinion based on the information provided by the people "quoted" in the article - not the conclusion the author has drawn on his or her own..

As an example - this would be a "quote" that provides additional information, not the "opinion" of the writer:

In one episode, they saw state wrestling champion Rocky Wayne Hoffschneider shoving his girlfriend into a locker, in front of a teacher, who did nothing, according to a close friend. "We used to talk about Rocky a lot," said the friend, who asked not to be identified. "We'd say things like 'He should be in jail for the stuff he does.' " Another friend of Klebold's, Andrew Beard, remembers distinctly Klebold's rage at four football players' "getting off" after destroying a man's apartment last year.
 
I haven't read all the other posts before mine but..IMHO, the parents that made those comments did not owe anyone anything. They will forever be scrutinized by everyone outside their circle. Here's a news flash...You do not know, all the time, everything your child does or thinks. These parents lost their children too. Just sad, all the way around. :(

TC
 
Originally posted by C.Ann
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How much - or "what" - is "enough"? The fact that Harris was on medication shows that he was being "treated" in some way, shape or form, so unless you have some inside information you really don't know what else was being done or not being done..
Well, it was obviously not enough to stop this from occurring... But, honestly, I feel the parents have enough to live with without the fingerpointing. I am just stating my opinion, I have obviously never been in their shoes. I guess it is just really frustrating that this went down the way it did.
You are 100% correct in that an author of an article can intentionally (or unintentionally) put his or her own spin on a subject, but when I read an article (opinion piece or not) I form my own opinion based on the information provided by the people "quoted" in the article - not the conclusion the author has drawn on his or her own..
I totally understand what you are saying, I just don't think people had enough collective information then to consider a few isolated sitations as answers to the big picture. What gets me is that the media are the ones who jumped on the bullying story and ran with it.

I don't think people want to hear that this happened because of two troubled and mentally unstable kids. Maybe because there really is no easy answer to that. Most people seem to want a tangible fall guy. Or an understandable explanation. I think it is easier to bear if we can say "Hey, stop X from happening and our kids will be safe''.

I once read a transcript from a psychologist who was hired by the FBI in the investigation to review all of the information they had (tapes, diaries, etc), including eywitness accounts and interviews with students. He described Harris as depressed and easily led (which I think most people agree with). He felt that with help, Harris could have turned his life around and never had a violent episode. He described Klebold as a sociopath with a "God'' complex. He felt that Klebold was not crazy or psychotic, that he knew right from wrong. His opinion was that violence was inevitable with Klebold and that it was unlikely that he was 'reachable'. There was more, but that is the gist of it. Of course, this was only his opinion, we will never know. It was interesting reading though. I will try to find it, it was on the net.
 
Originally posted by poohandwendy
I don't think people want to hear that this happened because of two troubled and mentally unstable kids. Maybe because there really is no easy answer to that. Most people seem to want a tangible fall guy. Or an understandable explanation. I think it is easier to bear if we can say "Hey, stop X from happening and our kids will be safe''.

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a wild guess.. Do you think that parents need to find "someone" to blame - some way of saying the parents/school/police enforcement didn't do "enough" because they are simply TERRIFIED that there's a possibility that their OWN child could do something equally horrific?
 
Actually, I think some people (including me) want someone to blame, because the thought of your child being randomly murdered by someone else's troubled child is so frightening. All of the families of the 13 who were murdered had no opportunity to prevent what happened to their loved ones. So when we see that Klebold and Harris's families DID have clues, and COULD have done more, it is very frustrating. I think the sense of helplessness contributes to the anger.
As has been pointed out, the parents were doing some things to help Dylan and Eric, but was it really everything they could have done? IJMO, but I think the parents were too focussed on being their kids friends and keeping the peace and not enough on figuring out what was going on in their kids' lives. Kids will not offer things up to their parents, it takes persistence on the part of parents.
On the other hand, there's no way the parents could have known things would go so horribly wrong. Alot of people just tread water and hope things will get better, and they do.
 
Originally posted by C.Ann
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a wild guess.. Do you think that parents need to find "someone" to blame - some way of saying the parents/school/police enforcement didn't do "enough" because they are simply TERRIFIED that there's a possibility that their OWN child could do something equally horrific?

I'd say they are more horrified at the thought of it happening again.

There is always the need to find blame, the only thing his parents are doing in their statement that I dont' like is pointing the finger elsewhere. Why can't they just humbly accept the forgiveness of those parents that feel they do share the blame. They don't have to apolize for what their son did or take any blame for it. Why can't they just say we're sorry for what happened. Surely they do feel that sentiment.
 
I've been reading this and trying not to comment but I think that all parties involved have some culpability in this issue.

I do believe that the parents are trying to find someone else to blame because it is too horrific to think that your child could do something like this.

I have teenagers and unfortunately I meet many parents who cannot take resonsibility for their childrens problems. The kids get bad grades, have disipline problems, etc., yet that parents blame everything on someone else. It's the school's fault for not pushing their kids, the teachers are being unfair, the excuses are never ending.

I have a friend who complains all the time about her kids failing grades and the trouble they get into. She will ask me what I do because my kids are succeeding. When I tell her, (lots of parental involvement, interacting and expecting them to assume certain behavior), she will make excuses how this won't work for them.

Kids will have problems at school. But if the parents can recognize it and work with the system, things can change. It requires a LOT of work and it's not easy. You also have to be the bad guy and have rules and expectations.

I just don't think that you can blame the school and bullying for Columbine. Everyone is to blame, including the parents. People who don't have teenagers can not imagine how parents will not take responsibilty for their kids actions. It amazes me everyday.
 
Pipe Bombs and Clips... and the parents were NOT responsible in any way!!!!!! :confused:

It is just inconceiveable to me how anyone can buy that logic.

It is just the thing now-days to brush of any personal responsibility... Blame everything on 'society'.... Well, sorry, but society is not an entity with any self-control, and can not be actually held accountable for anything!!! It is just a huge bleeding-heart scapegoat for those who, like the Klebolds, simply refuse to be held accountable for anything!!!!

Result.. 13 dead... :(
 
Originally posted by Toby'sFriend
Interesting Article concerning the FBI investigation of the shootings.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203

In their investigation some Psychologists have included that although Harris was a Psychopath, Klebold himself suffered from severe depression and became very much of follower of Kelbold.

There is also an article here that talks about some of the myths regarding bullying, marilyn manson, hit lists, etc surrounding the shooting.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203/sidebar/2099208/

I'm not sure what I think of the parents comments. I honestly don't know what you could possibly say or how you would even survive knowing a child of yours reached the point where they committed such an atrocious act.

Great links. Really interesting. Thanks.
 
Coming from a few blocks away from Columbine and someone who knew someone killed and who knew someone injured, and who knew several that had to run for their lives, I would just like to say it was all the above. The school administrators for years have put the jocks on pedestals, the students then idolize the jocks and the "different" are ridiculed. There are parents who "just can't see the whole picture" and parents who DON'T want to see. I honestly believe that it all started years and years ago with athletes in general all over the country. Not just Colorado. I don't believe we can blame one or two people. It is society in general. We as a whole still look up to professional athletes. Why? I just can't answer that
 
I had forgotten about what happened when my son was in 6th grade. He went to a middle school in the Gifted Magnet Program. I was just starting my divorce and things were pretty rocky at our house (with my ex telling all the kids how I was destroying the family and didnt love them and all I wanted was to be with other men... :rolleyes: )

My son (Chris) could not keep up with the demands the gifted program was putting on him at that time... with everything going on in the house. Kids began to pick on him. Make fun of him not doing well or keeping up. It became a nightmare. One kid came up and teased him and shoved him so hard his head bounced off the locker and he had knot the size of a golf ball. It was in front of an adult who did nothing. I tried to talk to the schol but they denied that an adult was present even though Chris told them who it was. They said IF he was there, he didnt see anything.

I could not tolerate that anymore so I took him out and put him in our home (neighborhood) school for the last semester which was in the heart of Hollywood and lets just say, NOT a good enviroment. Most of the kids did not speak English (I am not saying anything about THAT, just that Chris had very little opportunity to make or find friends). A rather large number of them also had gang affliations. (What was I thinking putting him there? I have no idea... I was just trying to get him out of a bad situation).

Well the situation there was much worse. :( He was picked on for a being a small for his age kid who did not fight back when picked on. One kid came up to him in the hall (twice) and punched him in the face because he wouldnt fight him. Chris came home and told me about it the second time. The first time he tried to ignore it so he wouldnt "bother" me with another problem like before. But at least he did bring it to my attention when he saw it wasnt getting better because he knew I would stand behind him and try to find a way to make it better.

Talking to the school was completely impossible. They were dealing with problems much much worse then my little kid getting bullied. After a few months of this (maybe Feb-April) I realized the situation was beyond help and I pulled Chris out of school. He did not finish 6th grade but since he was ahead of his grade anyway, I felt like it didnt matter. The divorce was in full swing and I was not in a situation to really pursue the school and try to make things better.

The turning point came when I met my soon to be husband and he moved me and all my kids out to the suburbs and away from what we were going through there. (I know a lot of the bullying happens in the suburbs, not just inner city, but fortunately that wasnt the case for us)

I really believe if kid has a strong home life with parents or parent he can come to them and they can help, or at least stnad behind them so they don't feel so alone. (Of course my way of handling it was extreme..pulling him out of school, but it did end the problem).

You have to have kids that can talk toyou. And it doesnt start when they are teens.. it starts when they are little. People let little kids run free, very little discipline, (oh isnt it cute how they talk back... or it doesnt matter if he hits little Susie.. hes so little he doesnt know better) then when the kids become preteens/teens they start to try to reign them in and believe me, its far too late then!
 
Though I think it's very sad for these families to have lost their sons, I think it's absolutely wrong for either family to ignore their responsibility in this situation. Classic case of denial. Of course, it wasn't their fault - they didn't pull the trigger. BS! There were plenty of signs, plenty of paraphernalia lying around their rooms, their garage, their backyard, in their computer. Clues in the way they led their lives - heck how many of us have kids in a "Trench Coach Mafia" - just using the name mafia should tell you something. I think it's just another way for these families to push it into the faces of the victims. They want to blame the school, the culture, the athletes, the preps, the society, but they don't want to dare take part in their own responsibility because that would cause them too much pain. I think it's way past time for them to admit their part. Otherwise I think they should shut up about it. To me their silence would be much nicer than their blatant disregard for the victims and their families.
 
I just finished reading the article (posted below) then I came across this post. Sorry I didn't read all the replies, but what I noticed after reading the OP's posted article, it read differently than what I read..........I think the OP was the Associated Press paraphrased article about this column by the Original writer David Brooks:

What get's me is this article seems less harsh on the parents, than the article in the OP - but the basic information is somewhat the same. Don't you just love the media, with the ability to slant the meaning to fit their purpose.

Anyway, if anyone is interested - this is the column by David Brooks:

Killer's parents survivors, too
David Brooks - New York Times
Tuesday, May 18, 2004

After I wrote a column a few weeks ago about the 1999 shootings at Columbine High School, I got e-mail from Tom Klebold, the father of Dylan Klebold, one of the shooters. Tom objected to the column, but the striking thing about his note was that while acknowledging the horrible crime his son had committed, Tom was still fiercely loyal to him.

Which prompts this question: If your child commits a crime like that, what do you do with the rest of your life?

Tom and Susan Klebold have not really spoken to the press about all this. But the lawsuits against them are being settled, and they trust The New York Times, which is the paper they read every day, so they were willing to have a long conversation with me.

They are a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple (Dylan was named after Dylan Thomas). During our conversation they discussed matters between themselves, as well as answering my questions. Their son, by the way, is widely seen as the follower, who was led by Eric Harris into this nightmare.

The Klebolds describe the day of the shootings as a natural disaster, as a ''hurricane'' or a ''rain of fire.'' They say they had no intimations of Dylan's mental state. Tom, who works from home and saw his son every day, had spent part of the previous week with Dylan scoping out dorm rooms for college the next year.

When they first heard about the shootings, it did not occur to them that Dylan could be to blame. When informed, Susan said, ''we ran for our lives.'' They went into hiding, desperate for information. ''We didn't know what had happened,'' she said. ''We couldn't grieve for our child.''

That first night, their lawyer said to them, ''Dylan isn't here anymore for people to hate, so people are going to hate you.'' Even as we spoke last week, Tom had in front of him the poll results, news stories and documents, showing that 83 percent of Americans had believed the parents were partly to blame. Their lives are now pinioned to this bottomless question: Who is responsible?

They feel certain of one thing. ''Dylan did not do this because of the way he was raised,'' Susan said. ''He did it in contradiction to the way he was raised.''

After the shooting, they faced a simple choice: to move away and change their names, or to go back and resume their lives. Susan thinks about leaving every day. ''I won't let them win,'' Tom said. ''You can't run from something like this.''

So they live in the same house and work at the same jobs. Susan works in the community college system. ''It's amazing how long it took me to get up and say my name at a meeting, to say, 'I'm Dylan Klebold's mother,' " Susan says.

In general, Tom said, ''most people have been good-hearted.'' Their friends rallied around. Their neighbors call to warn them if an unfamiliar car lurks in the neighborhood. There is a moment of discomfort when they hand over a credit card at a store, but there have been few bad scenes. One clerk looked at the name and remarked to Susan, ''Boy, you're a survivor, aren't you?''

The most infuriating incident, Susan said, came when somebody said, ''I forgive you for what you've done.'' Susan insists, ''I haven't done anything for which I need forgiveness.''

When they talk about the event, they discuss it as a suicide. They acknowledge but do not emphasize the murders their son committed. They also think about the signs they missed. ''He was hopeless. We didn't realize it until after the end,'' Tom said. Susan added: ''I think he suffered horribly before he died. For not seeing that, I will never forgive myself.''

They believe that what they call the ''toxic culture'' of the school --- the worship of jocks and the tolerance of bullying --- is the primary force that set Dylan off. But they confess that in the main, they have no explanation.

''People need to understand,'' Tom said, ''this could have happened to them.''

My instinct is that Dylan Klebold was a self-initiating moral agent who made his choices and should be condemned for them. Neither his school nor his parents determined his behavior. Now his parents have been left with the terrible consequences. I'd say they are facing them bravely and honorably.
 












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