How do u get your spouse to participate....

[Marionnette]

It doesn't sound like she really chose #1: Participate in a budget, help set goals, and spend in accordance with the budget

She controlled the budget, she set the goals, and she spent in accordance with HER budget (which didn't include utilities) - he didn't get to participate or set goals.

In a marriage, at least one person should take door #1, but if both people do, then it has to be a cooperative exercise in goal setting with an equal commitment to the goals and compromise. And if one partner chooses door #2, there has to be trust that the partner who chooses door #1 is going to be looking out for joint interests. I can't decide that my goal with our surplus every month is to develop the world's best designer purse collection, but everything he wants to treat himself to needs to come out of his $200 a month allowance. That is just driving to door #3.

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that she would totally agree to everything that they would budget and she turned around and spent as she pleased whenever the urge hit her. Each time, she would promise to get her act together and try harder. You know the old adage about leading a horse to water...

My brother finally took over the household finances with his paycheck and she had her own paycheck (which was pretty small) to use however she saw fit. But even with that kind of freedom to spend whatever she made, she still wasn't happy and accused him of being controlling when all he was trying to do was to pay off the huge CC debts that she had amassed.

Obviously, there is more to the story than that. Some of the money problems led to other problems within the marriage. And some of their other problems contributed to their money woes.

 

[piperdown]

I very much appreciate all this input. Until last night I didn't think my marriage was in trouble. I knew things were rough, and that I wasn't happy and he wasn't listening, but NEVER in my mind did the "D" word come up. Until yesterday. Yesterday I felt like I wanted to just take the kids and go away. That if I couldn't have any more babies that he might as well be dead to me.

Those do not feel like rational thoughts.

I very much like a PP's analogy of the basement leak. Sounds like the problem has more to do with the question of more children. You need to find out what he really wants. I tend to think that he doesn't want more children, and he doesn't want to hurt you or have you leave, so he's using the finances as an excuse.

If the true issue is that he doesn't want more children, then you have a tough decision on your hands. If it were me, I'd choose the marriage over more kids. Forcing the issue would cause resentment, and could jeopardize the marriage and the kids' relationship with their dad. Again, that's me.

Maybe you need to determine why having more kids is so important to you. Why is the life and kids you have not enough? Is not having more kids a deal breaker? These are questions you need to ask yourself. Once you decide what you absolutely need and what you're willing to give up, you can make the necessary choices. Just be willing to live with the possible consequences of those choices.

 

[NYCDiane]

I very much appreciate all this input. Until last night I didn't think my marriage was in trouble. I knew things were rough, and that I wasn't happy and he wasn't listening, but NEVER in my mind did the "D" word come up. Until yesterday. Yesterday I felt like I wanted to just take the kids and go away. That if I couldn't have any more babies that he might as well be dead to me.
Those do not feel like rational thoughts.

Definitely NOT a rational thought!

Why would you want to have more babies with a person who can't stick to a budget and will eventually get you and your children in a financial situation where you may lose everything???? Children do NOT save a marriage and it's a terrible thing to bring a child into a marriage that's already in trouble.

You're thinking about divorce. Would it be fair to a child, you, or him to bring a new baby into the mess?? No.

Your budget is one problem. Him having no regard for your feelings is another. Him being immature is another. There are many other issues you two have, I'm sure.

You need to figure this ALL out before you decide to have another baby --- with or without him.

 

[eliza61]

Definitely NOT a rational thought!

Why would you want to have more babies with a person who can't stick to a budget and will eventually get you and your children in a financial situation where you may lose everything???? Children do NOT save a marriage and it's a terrible thing to bring a child into a marriage that's already in trouble.

You're thinking about divorce. Would it be fair to a child, you, or him to bring a new baby into the mess?? No.

Your budget is one problem. Him having no regard for your feelings is another. Him being immature is another. There are many other issues you two have, I'm sure.

You need to figure this ALL out before you decide to have another baby --- with or without him.

That is so interesting because I don't see it as all "him". He may not he immature at all, remember we are hearing one side. Now she says he grew up with money so is she exploring their different money styles or just pushing her ideas. Are they setting mutual goals it just harping on having more kids? I'm not a marriage counselor but Colleen27 may have a great point, what if he simply is using bad budgeting to not have kids. She shares a big part of the responsibility here also.

Not being able to stick to a budget is not a trait. My Dh couldn't do it well and he certainly did not lead us to financial ruin, just the opposite he ensured my family am extremely comfortable life style. He knew his strengths and his weaknesses. The areas where he was weak (budgeting) he left to me. The areas I was weak at (saving) I left to him. We trusted each other

Now she has said some thing along the line of "if she can't have any more kids he might as well be dead", image if that is the vibe her husband gets from her? Oh great, so unless I can keep getting you knocked up, I may as well be dead? Yeah, that really makes me feel good about being your husband.

If he is immature, then she is hanging out in the very same neighborhood with him (I personally don't think either of them is. they've got issues)

 

[tvguy]

DW has no patience for financial matters. I force her to pay bills every once in a while, because if something happens to me, she needs to know how to do it.
She really doesn't care about money, I can think of maybe 4 times in the past 31 years she has even asked about finances.
And those times it was usually a week where I had just paid the bills, and there was no extra money left. Anytime there was extra money left, she didn't need or want anything!

 

[RitaE]

"More babies or he might as well be dead?"

No, not a rational thought. I'm glad to see you admit that. I'm not sure if that is something you really feel or what, but I admit it kind of shocks me to see somebody type that out.

I'm going to throw my hat in with all the other Internet Psychologists here and say that this could very well be not a money problem at all. Something seems to be broken with the relationship that should be fixed before adding more children even becomes a possibility.

 

[Colleen27]

I very much appreciate all this input. Until last night I didn't think my marriage was in trouble. I knew things were rough, and that I wasn't happy and he wasn't listening, but NEVER in my mind did the "D" word come up. Until yesterday. Yesterday I felt like I wanted to just take the kids and go away. That if I couldn't have any more babies that he might as well be dead to me.

Those do not feel like rational thoughts.

I can't imagine a situation where those would be rational thoughts. I know it is hard - the closest my own marriage ever came to the "D" word was over similar issues - but you need to try to step back and look at the situation as logically as possible. The emotional drive to have another child can be overwhelming, but if it is something that you're thinking about breaking up your marriage and family over you really need to think about why. What is it about having another child that is more important than raising the kids you have in an intact family, more important than your marriage vows and the life you've built with your husband? I think that kind of blinding, no-matter-what desire often comes from a less than healthy place - having problems accepting that the children you have are growing up, feeling like your only worth/identity is that of a mother, fear of the inevitable future outside of the baby/toddler/preschooler stage.

At the same time, really listen to his reasons for not wanting more because in my experience dads are often better than moms about getting excited for what's coming next - Does he not want to have more kids than you can reasonably afford to travel with? Is he looking ahead to coaching or attending the kids' sporting events and doesn't want to be stretched thin? Is he imagining a college experience for your kids that you'll be less able to afford if you have more? Does he have an image of your "empty nest" years that looks so good that he doesn't want to keep kicking it down the road by adding to the family again?

 

[NotUrsula]

The simple answer on a practical level is that you need to divide your finances and keep all of your credit separate. The only joint asset you should have is your home. The key is three bank accounts, his, yours, and the house. Fill out the forms for a direct-deposit from his paycheck to the house account for his share of the mortgage, utilities and groceries, and another one to move the rest of his pay into his own account. You do the same.

You handle the household account, and don't have ATM cards made for it at all; either write checks or do the transfers strictly online. His ATM card will access HIS account only, and if he drains it dry, then he'll finally either learn to control himself or get arrested for passing bad checks.

Now then, that is the practical solution, but the deeper issue of the number of children is FAR more important. They are his children as well, and if he feels that he has as many as he can handle, then you either need to respect and accept that or decide to choose between your desire for more children and your marriage. (Also, even if you DID have the "how many kids" talk before you were married, the idea of kids and the reality of what parenting takes out of you are very different things. He may have discovered that what sounded fine in theory is much more difficult than he anticipated.)

I don't know how old you are, but here is something to think about: kids grow up and move on with their lives, but if you are committed to marriage, you have to live with your spouse for a long time after the kids are gone. In a committed relationship, when it comes to the question of whose happiness to put first, what a spouse wants should ALWAYS win over what children want. (*Needs* are different, but that's another topic.)

Also, something else to think about, whether or not your marriage survives: what kind of toll will it take on these putative additional children if they realize that their father resents having to provide for them? It isn't just about your desire for more children, it is also about the well-being of those kids. They are not dolls; they are people, and their right to a decent quality of life (both materially and emotionally) trumps a mom's desire to reproduce just because she adores kids.

 

[nalajms]

First off, I'm sure your comment was written when you were very upset. If DH told me that he refused to have any more kids when I'm upset about money, I'd feel something similar. Do I want more kids? Maybe, but I'm not at the point where it's a definite no.

We've been married 5 years. DH also comes from a wealthy family, and to add to that he was the baby. We argue over money, but never truly fight about it because we're not to the point where the debt is looming over my head. I just let it go for my health.

DH has a hard time discussing a budget because it brings to light how much less accomplished (money wise) he is compared to his father and a few siblings. Rather than work with what we have, his solution is to "make more money".

Perhaps you can try a different approach to the subject? I recently totaled up how much DH spends on coffee, snacks, and meals at work this year. He charges most on the CC. That combined with his dry cleaning bills could have paid for another Disney vacation!

And if you're still thinking of "D" or the possibility of it, I'd try to separate your finances. Which means separate bank accounts and CC.

 

[code3chica]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, and I'm reading it all.

The budget issue is one thing - which the three choices makes great sense and I will bring that up.

Our relationship is a whole mess by itself. I've been working on myself a lot over the past 10 months and I recognize that I have changed. DH and I have been together for 9.5 years (married 5) and *I* expected that meant that we would be growing and changing as life evolved. I have no idea what he expected. I feel like every time I try to help our relationship he feels like it's just one more thing that has to "be done." One more thing on the checklist.

About the babies (which, yes, is clearly not the real problem here), he knew I wanted 5 all along. After my awesome birth experience with #2 I said "I don't know if I will ever feel done." That didn't mean I wanted 20 kids, just that I was acknowledging that my heart and my head may never meet. Then I had #3. He was unplanned, and a little sooner than we wanted. When I was pregnant with him I decided I could no longer do this a million times and said to him, "I realized I only want 5." So when he said to me yesterday that "Since you said you will never feel done, I guess I will have to make the decision for us." I thought to myself, "It is not just my perception. He really doesn't listen. He hasn't been listening for our entire relationship."

I DO NOT want to tear my family apart. Neither of us comes from broken homes, but his parents version of marriage is what ours is right now. And I want what MY parents have -, which is a bigger than average family (there are 4 of us). They are best friends and have FUN together. They always showed us how they put their relationship first because it was important to giving us a good home. I want to be done having babies young so I can enjoy them and still have time to do things *I* want to do when I'm older. I want to go back to school to be a midwife. It will only take 2 years, it's online. But he said he didn't see how I could do that because *I* have student loans. He knows nothing about loans, because he's never had to have one. I've been helping him grow up since he was 21 and I'm kind of over it. I'm sick of feeling like I'm dragging him along, like I'm not worth his effort (I'm happy to offer examples).

Sorry for venting this all. This convo just went down yesterday so I'm still very raw.

And someone asked about the vacation thing...yeah, his parents are loaded and provide us with plenty of vacation. We went to WDW and stayed at Bay Lake for 4 nights in Jan on their dime. Not cheap, at all.

 

[RitaE]

Wow..

My reaction after reading that is there is a whole lot of not listening and selfishness and unwillingness to compromise going on in both ends of this relationship.

Can I just say turn this around a little and try to look at it from his point of view? Your entire post there is "I, I, I" I wanted 5 babies, then I wanted more, then I wanted 5 and why isn't he listening to what I say about the money and the student loans and I want to go back to school......."

I do appreciate your willingness to be honest here and that takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there for criticism - but at the same time I can only tell you how I'd feel. If my husband came to me with the opinion that my primary use to him as a life partner is to give him the number of babies he's currently desiring (subject to change), I'd likely get the urge to take our marriage totally into old fashioned stereotype mode and hit him on the head with a frying pan.

So in summary, while I understand your frustration here with the money ... the money is only the tip of this problem.

 

[code3chica]

One more thing....a similar problem happened like this before. Except in that case he asked me to marry him, I accepted, and then his parents told him they would stop paying for his schooling if he didn't cut it off. They controlled him with money.

Wanna guess which side he chose?

It has taken me YEARS to accept what happened then, despite him constantly trying to tell me it wasn't personal. Um, whaaaaat?

This feels very much like that. Like he doesn't see that it is a very personal hit to do/say what he did, but it is. I very carefully planned out my life to afford myself the experience that I wanted - I chose a career that allowed me to work and be with my kids. I wanted to have it all, and I do. But maybe what I wanted and what he wants don't mesh. I was upfront about my wants.

 

[code3chica]

Wow..

My reaction after reading that is there is a whole lot of not listening and selfishness and unwillingness to compromise going on in both ends of this relationship.

Can I just say turn this around a little and try to look at it from his point of view? Your entire post there is "I, I, I" I wanted 5 babies, then I wanted more, then I wanted 5 and why isn't he listening to what I say about the money and the student loans and I want to go back to school......."

I do appreciate your willingness to be honest here and that takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there for criticism - but at the same time I can only tell you how I'd feel. If my husband came to me with the opinion that my primary use to him as a life partner is to give him the number of babies he's currently desiring (subject to change), I'd likely get the urge to take our marriage totally into old fashioned stereotype mode and hit him on the head with a frying pan.

So in summary, while I understand your frustration here with the money ... the money is only the tip of this problem.

I appreciate and respect this feedback. I wish that DH would be willing to tell me what it is he needs. Because I ask. I ask, a lot. There's clearly a communication issue.

 

[Marionnette]

In a family budget? Mine keeps complaining about our finances, but groans when I ask him to sit down and talk. I even set up YNAB and he acts like its too much inconvenience. He used up all the planned savings because he didn't pay attention to it and overdrafts paying too much on a bill.

I have tried multiple times to do this in the 5 years we have been married, but I've never given him those choices. Perhaps I should. He takes cash out of our account almost weekly. Not a lot, like $40, but then I can't track what it's used for. Neither of us can get an allowance to spend what we want because I can't keep up with what he is doing with that money. If its his fun money, then he needs to stop using other money to buy stuff he wants.

Right now he using our debt as a reason to not have more kids. And that is killing me.

Yeah. We clearly have a big problem right now, but it's the same problem we've had the whole time. He came from a family with two kids and endless money, and I didn't. I've never been scared to work for what I want but all he can ever see is dollar signs.

But anyway, we DO need to fix the budget, regardless of anything else.

I very much appreciate all this input. Until last night I didn't think my marriage was in trouble. I knew things were rough, and that I wasn't happy and he wasn't listening, but NEVER in my mind did the "D" word come up. Until yesterday. Yesterday I felt like I wanted to just take the kids and go away. That if I couldn't have any more babies that he might as well be dead to me.

Those do not feel like rational thoughts.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, and I'm reading it all.

The budget issue is one thing - which the three choices makes great sense and I will bring that up.

Our relationship is a whole mess by itself. I've been working on myself a lot over the past 10 months and I recognize that I have changed. DH and I have been together for 9.5 years (married 5) and *I* expected that meant that we would be growing and changing as life evolved. I have no idea what he expected. I feel like every time I try to help our relationship he feels like it's just one more thing that has to "be done." One more thing on the checklist.

About the babies (which, yes, is clearly not the real problem here), he knew I wanted 5 all along. After my awesome birth experience with #2 I said "I don't know if I will ever feel done." That didn't mean I wanted 20 kids, just that I was acknowledging that my heart and my head may never meet. Then I had #3. He was unplanned, and a little sooner than we wanted. When I was pregnant with him I decided I could no longer do this a million times and said to him, "I realized I only want 5." So when he said to me yesterday that "Since you said you will never feel done, I guess I will have to make the decision for us." I thought to myself, "It is not just my perception. He really doesn't listen. He hasn't been listening for our entire relationship."

I DO NOT want to tear my family apart. Neither of us comes from broken homes, but his parents version of marriage is what ours is right now. And I want what MY parents have -, which is a bigger than average family (there are 4 of us). They are best friends and have FUN together. They always showed us how they put their relationship first because it was important to giving us a good home. I want to be done having babies young so I can enjoy them and still have time to do things *I* want to do when I'm older. I want to go back to school to be a midwife. It will only take 2 years, it's online. But he said he didn't see how I could do that because *I* have student loans. He knows nothing about loans, because he's never had to have one. I've been helping him grow up since he was 21 and I'm kind of over it. I'm sick of feeling like I'm dragging him along, like I'm not worth his effort (I'm happy to offer examples).

Sorry for venting this all. This convo just went down yesterday so I'm still very raw.

And someone asked about the vacation thing...yeah, his parents are loaded and provide us with plenty of vacation. We went to WDW and stayed at Bay Lake for 4 nights in Jan on their dime. Not cheap, at all.

One more thing....a similar problem happened like this before. Except in that case he asked me to marry him, I accepted, and then his parents told him they would stop paying for his schooling if he didn't cut it off. They controlled him with money.

Wanna guess which side he chose?

It has taken me YEARS to accept what happened then, despite him constantly trying to tell me it wasn't personal. Um, whaaaaat?

This feels very much like that. Like he doesn't see that it is a very personal hit to do/say what he did, but it is. I very carefully planned out my life to afford myself the experience that I wanted - I chose a career that allowed me to work and be with my kids. I wanted to have it all, and I do. But maybe what I wanted and what he wants don't mesh. I was upfront about my wants.

I appreciate and respect this feedback. I wish that DH would be willing to tell me what it is he needs. Because I ask. I ask, a lot. There's clearly a communication issue.

The drama just keeps piling up. Time for THE RULE.

OP, you have way too many issues for a budget forum on a vacation-centered message board. Time for you to seek the advice of real-life people.

 

[nalajms]

Wanna guess which side he chose?

Maybe I'm just too out of it today, but I can't tell which side I assume you're married, but you also mentioned his parents paid for the vacation. If my child wanted to get married very young and before finishing school, I'd do the same thing to try to delay it.

Now I'm not so sure what the problem is. It sounds like the baby thing is higher than the money issue? Have you ever talked to his parents about money? A year after we were married, DH's 13 yr old dog died. Before he died, he spent 2 weeks in ICU and had several surgeries. The bill was a new car! DH's parent's didn't bat an eye, just wrote him a check. Even just hinting to the in laws could help thing financially.

If it's more about the babies, I would put that on hold and get going on your career. It will just get pushed off if you have more kids. There's nothing wrong with having more later in life after you've accomplished your other goals. You already have 3 now. I'm 9 & 7 years younger than my brothers, we're still close. It was great to have my parents to myself for several years.

 

[eliza61]

The drama just keeps piling up. Time for THE RULE.

OP, you have way too many issues for a budget forum on a vacation-centered message board. Time for you to seek the advice of real-life people.

Totally agree!!

Op, I think you and your dh should scrape the budget issue. That is really minor and simply a manifestation of the other issues.

Suffice it to say both of you sound like you have issues that need to be hammered out.

That being said, I have 2 dear friends who married total opposites with the same "background" issues. Remember we are all a product of our history. NO one simply hatches. Both couples now are happily married 30+ years and are so vocal about how marriage counseling made them a gazillon times happier.

I'm a big advocate of therapy. You have a lot on your emotional plate also so don't just lay it on him. babies, raising kids, career, more babies... That's a lot. Personally, I'd love to shoot who ever came up with "you can have it all" at the same time. LOL maybe you can but after the mental breakdown you wont be able to enjoy it!! "having it all" doesn't mean all at once or on a time table.
How about therapy for yourself? see why having a boatload of kids is important to you? you say you have it all "planned' for years but I can tell you some times what you think you want, is not how it will be. I do have family members who have large broods and believe me, money worries are only the start of it. Could it be that you think tons of kids will make you happy? let me tell you, I don't care what career you pick 5,6,7 kids will demand a huge network of folks supporting you.

Good luck.

 

[mrsklamc]

Our relationship is a whole mess by itself. I've been working on myself a lot over the past 10 months and I recognize that I have changed. DH and I have been together for 9.5 years (married 5) and *I* expected that meant that we would be growing and changing as life evolved.

Are you saying that over the last ten months you thought you would be growing and changing as life evolved? Or that all along he wasn't as mature as you wanted and you for some reason thought he was going to change?

 

[lovemygoofy]

One more thing....a similar problem happened like this before. Except in that case he asked me to marry him, I accepted, and then his parents told him they would stop paying for his schooling if he didn't cut it off. They controlled him with money.

Wanna guess which side he chose?

It has taken me YEARS to accept what happened then, despite him constantly trying to tell me it wasn't personal. Um, whaaaaat?

This feels very much like that. Like he doesn't see that it is a very personal hit to do/say what he did, but it is. I very carefully planned out my life to afford myself the experience that I wanted - I chose a career that allowed me to work and be with my kids. I wanted to have it all, and I do. But maybe what I wanted and what he wants don't mesh. I was upfront about my wants.

Wow you think you have a money problem? You have enough issues just from what you shared to fill up hour of Dr. Phil. Have you ever heard the phrase "life happens while you are planning it." I'm sorry but you can't plan every step of it and think it's going to be the way you hope and dream.

You want to control the way your husband spends, you want to control the way your husband deals with his parents, you want to control having a specific amount of children, and I guess you probably want to control the way you want your life to turn out. You probably need to remember you have a partner in all this controlling that deserves to have a voice and options and not just being told to donate some more sperm to make you happy.

As much as you think your family was happy go lucky as you grew up, you have no idea what happened behind closed doors of your parents' house. You cannot compare your family to that family and you cannot compare your family to his family. You need to raise your family with the shared standards from both you and your husband. You need to get some counseling together and apart.

 

[PHXscuba]

This is obviously a bigger issue than money, but one conversation I find helpful to have with anyone -- but especially my spouse -- is to ask, "Where do you see us/yourself in 10 years?" After considering it and saying it out loud -- it can be huge to voice where you want to be if given the choice/chance -- then the second conversation is: "So what are we/you going to do to get there?"

Short-term differences of how to handle things are always going to happen in a healthy marriage. But if you have vastly different long-term goals it's time for counseling.

PHXscuba

 

[NotUrsula]

Two related things kind of jump out at me from the long reply -- you had an "awesome birth experience" and you want to change your career to become a midwife?

Are you really sure that it is children that you want, or pregnancies? There is an odd mental phenomenon out there that is akin to an addiction to pregnancy and all of the special attention that surrounds it. It sounds from your reply like you might be hovering perilously close to that, especially since you say that you have given up on the idea of more than 5 children, but now want a career change that will put you in the company of pregnant women every day, and let you re-experience childbirth (in a way) on a regular basis.

Here's the thing: you are not going to get rich being a midwife, and if you become one your time is largely no longer going to be your own. If you get called out on a birth at midnight and the mother is in labor for 18 hours, then your DH is going to be dealing with the children on his own while you are attending that birth. It's one thing to be an OB/GYN with the kind of income that comes with that, because physicians usually make enough to afford household help, but if you can't, then you are unilaterally deciding to put your husband in a position where he may be flying solo with the kids for a few days each month on an unpredictable basis. (My own OB is a mom, and when her children were young they had a live-in nanny for just this reason; her husband is an attorney and could not easily rearrange his schedule if she had to do a delivery when the children needed to be taken care of.)

If you currently have the kind of job that lets you arrange your hours easily to manage the children's needs, he may well be thinking along the lines of: "OK, now she wants to switch to a job with really unpredictable hours, which will make me the primary caregiver, and if that's what she wants, then I think I should get to decide how many kids I'm taking care of."