How do parents & teachers feel about this bill?

[Ratpack]

Everyone on here has mentioned the many problems that will occur if/when this is passed.
Public educators can only deal with what they are given. It is not like we can choose who comes into our classrooms. WE don't get the opportunity to truly educate children for THEIR true needs. We are mandated what we have to teach, when it has to be taught, and most of the time how we have to teach it. Not to mention, we can't ensure that all of their needs are being met at home- that is the ultimate problem. We have them for 180 days, yet we have to teach them a lifetime of standards in the midst of merely 6 hours a day.
Who should be held accountable for their learning? Who is not being accountable for their well being?
This was the policy in my previous state. The outcome: Lots of cheating on the tests (by the teachers), support staff demanding their share of the bonuses, teachers requesting transfers to the upper schools, the overall scores were skewed to reflect growth in certain districts, and finally NO money left when all of the schools began to perform.
Hopefully, they will see the problems before it happens.

 

[themilesfamily]

I think we should put politicians in the schools and make them teach for a semester.

Perhaps they'll come out with some sense of reality as to what teachers are facing in the schools -- and begin to offer some truly effective solutions for educational reform.

More tests, more hoops for teachers to jump through -- not working.

 

[taylor3297]

I know of several teachers who were fired due to poor performance in the classroom.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I know of several teachers who were fired due to poor performance in the classroom.

Me, too. Every year teachers at my school get pink slipped, some due to performance issues.

 

[amyren]

Seriously? DH is a special ed high school teacher. He deals with mainly BD (Behavior Disorder) kids. The kids are in mainstream classes but still receive special ed services. I can't imagine how something like this would affect him. Granted some of his students are good kids with real issues but lots of them are just unmotivated. He tries and tries but if they don't show up for school and don't graduate what is he as the teacher supposed to do?!?!?!

Ugh, issues like this are really stressing me out. We are in GA but there are there are major problems with the school system here. They are talking about more pay cuts, furlough days and cutting coaching stipends! It’s pretty scary for us and I think GA is about to scare off lots of really good teachers. He was actually talking today about moving to a private school.

 

[Kathi OD]

Knowing what these teachers were dealing with they would be evaluated accordingly. They should get hazard pay in my opinion.

Something has to be done. Things aren't working as they are now. Separate the problem kids and fire the really bad teachers.

Have you ever heard of a teacher being actually FIRED for bad performance? I haven't and don't give me that line about how can they evaluate teachers the good teachers know who the bad teachers are. I had a teacher tell me she knew which students had a particular math teacher the year before because they hadn't learned anything from this teacher and she had to teach them what they should have learned the year before while at the same time teaching her own subject.

This has been going on for YEARS. Every year she gets stuck with numerous students who are lacking and every year it is the students of this one teacher. Everyone knows this and nobody does anything about it. I consider it in the same class as nurses and other doctors not reporting a doctor they know is incompetent or comes to work drunk. You people are letting the bad teachers hurt our kids!

I absolutely have known teachers who have been fired for bad performance. It's not an impossible task as some would like to believe.

In the example you relate above, the administrator(s) at that school along with the teacher, need to be let go. Any administrator who would allow a teacher, known to be bad, to continue teaching at their school isn't doing their job either.

 

[FSUDisneyGirl]

My fiance and I both teach music in Florida. We are horrified at the prospect of Senate Bill 6 invading our schools. As for teacher merit pay...my fiance teachers high school band. So, say that you base his pay on student performance. To make this remotely fair to teachers, shouldn't all band students have the same equipment, opportunities, instruments, etc.? Well, at the moment, his school probably needs $40,000 or so worth of new instruments to be in a level playing field with surrounding schools. But, band starts in 7th grade here...so if the kids come out of junior high playing their instruments pretty well and knowing how to read music? He is golden.

But if they come out barely knowing how to hold the instrument and not having a clue about music reading...suddenly this is his problem, and his pay is based on this? This is ridiculous! To use "merit pay" in the schools, all schools must first be equal in all ways...and the fact that my school just had to pay back $20,000 of our already wimpy annual budget to the school board gives me no indication that this will happen any time soon.

My fiance happens to be a pretty good writer, and if anyone is interested, here is something he wrote to our representative in Tallahassee (who we're not voting for come election time, and you can guess why):

Dear Representative :
As a hard-working educator in the field of secondary music education, I am appalled and enraged by the callous action taken by your colleagues on the other side of the capital in the Florida Senate today. Senate Bill 6 cuts teacher rights to the core and squarely places the mantle of student success purely on the teacher. I am writing to tell you that it is in fact a multifaceted endeavor to ensure a student succeeds in a public school setting, starting first in the child's home. Additionally, the bill addresses issues with the problem of assessing teachers as acceptable despite a less than satisfactory overall achievement on standardized tests. How exactly is it that the teachers are at fault when it is administration that dictates which teachers receive passing evaluations? Why are teachers always on the front lines of assault against public education? We do not raise the children and we do not run the schools. There are many issues at play when a child fails, to place the blame solely upon the teacher is highlighting the Florida Senate's pure ignorance of the situation. Additionally, how does this bill address subject areas that are not tested by standardized testing such as music? How can we effectively or accurately measure music participation against reading?

I have worked in a low-socioeconomic area and I have seen students come to school despite having parents who either abuse or neglect them or who have parents incarcerated or under the influence. I have worked in a school such as that where there are teachers who sweat and labor to push their class to succeed, but ultimately have their students miss the mark.

I am writing you to encourage you to vote “No” and dismiss this bill as the attention-grabbing, political tripe that it is and send a message to your constituency that you support Florida teachers. I strongly exercise my right to vote in favor of candidates that support education and I know many others who will do the same. If the House passes this measure I will strongly consider taking my talent to another state, hopefully finding one that will support and empowers teachers and not one that cuts their legs off.

 

[Took]

I know of several teachers who were fired due to poor performance in the classroom.

I have known several, too, and I teach at a unionized institution. I've also known a couple at DD's school that have been let go or "allowed to leave to pursue other interests."

It's a myth that bad employees can't be fired if they're in a union. What usually happens, however, is that the administrator is too busy (or lazy) to follow the proper steps to make that happen.

I like the idea of one poster: put the politicians in classrooms for a few weeks or so. That will cure them of this sort of approach.

THe truth, as many teachers have noted here, is that many parents are not holding up their end of the bargain. They want "special exceptions" made for their children or they just don't care much.

ALso, we have moved too far away from constructive and helpful vocational education for those who want to pursue that path. Not everyone is "college material."

 

[IDoDis]

My fiance and I both teach music in Florida. We are horrified at the prospect of Senate Bill 6 invading our schools. As for teacher merit pay...my fiance teachers high school band. So, say that you base his pay on student performance. To make this remotely fair to teachers, shouldn't all band students have the same equipment, opportunities, instruments, etc.? Well, at the moment, his school probably needs $40,000 or so worth of new instruments to be in a level playing field with surrounding schools. But, band starts in 7th grade here...so if the kids come out of junior high playing their instruments pretty well and knowing how to read music? He is golden.

But if they come out barely knowing how to hold the instrument and not having a clue about music reading...suddenly this is his problem, and his pay is based on this? This is ridiculous! To use "merit pay" in the schools, all schools must first be equal in all ways...and the fact that my school just had to pay back $20,000 of our already wimpy annual budget to the school board gives me no indication that this will happen any time soon.

My fiance happens to be a pretty good writer, and if anyone is interested, here is something he wrote to our representative in Tallahassee (who we're not voting for come election time, and you can guess why):

Dear Representative :
As a hard-working educator in the field of secondary music education, I am appalled and enraged by the callous action taken by your colleagues on the other side of the capital in the Florida Senate today. Senate Bill 6 cuts teacher rights to the core and squarely places the mantle of student success purely on the teacher. I am writing to tell you that it is in fact a multifaceted endeavor to ensure a student succeeds in a public school setting, starting first in the child's home. Additionally, the bill addresses issues with the problem of assessing teachers as acceptable despite a less than satisfactory overall achievement on standardized tests. How exactly is it that the teachers are at fault when it is administration that dictates which teachers receive passing evaluations? Why are teachers always on the front lines of assault against public education? We do not raise the children and we do not run the schools. There are many issues at play when a child fails, to place the blame solely upon the teacher is highlighting the Florida Senate's pure ignorance of the situation. Additionally, how does this bill address subject areas that are not tested by standardized testing such as music? How can we effectively or accurately measure music participation against reading?

I have worked in a low-socioeconomic area and I have seen students come to school despite having parents who either abuse or neglect them or who have parents incarcerated or under the influence. I have worked in a school such as that where there are teachers who sweat and labor to push their class to succeed, but ultimately have their students miss the mark.

I am writing you to encourage you to vote “No” and dismiss this bill as the attention-grabbing, political tripe that it is and send a message to your constituency that you support Florida teachers. I strongly exercise my right to vote in favor of candidates that support education and I know many others who will do the same. If the House passes this measure I will strongly consider taking my talent to another state, hopefully finding one that will support and empowers teachers and not one that cuts their legs off.

Very well written!

 

[golfgal]

Our FL senate is hard at work today. In addition to SB 6 that was passed earlier today (the original topic of this post) they have also passed SB 4, making graduation requirements tougher. I am not sure why every child in the state of FL would NEED physics and algebra 2 if they are not on a path to go to a university.

TALLAHASSEE — High school graduation requirements would be increased under a bill that has cleared the Florida Senate.

The chamber voted 36-1 for the bill (SB 4) that also would do away with the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, or FCAT, for high school math and science and replace it with end-of-course exams.

The measure next goes to the House where a similar bill (HB 7053)has one more committee hearing left before it can go to the floor.

The legislation would add geometry, algebra II, biology, chemistry and physics to the list of courses needed to graduate and require students to take at least one virtual class.

The requirements would be phased in from this fall through the 2014-15 school year for entering freshmen.

I can't believe you don't have these requirements already Kids in Florida aren't required to take high school science classes??? These classes have been required in MN since I was in high school.

 

[taylor3297]

I can't believe you don't have these requirements already Kids in Florida aren't required to take high school science classes??? These classes have been required in MN since I was in high school.

All states require high school science but just not physics. There are many different types of science class offered. Not everyone is cut out to understand all of the physics objectives.

 

[RadioNate]

Knowing what these teachers were dealing with they would be evaluated accordingly. They should get hazard pay in my opinion.

Something has to be done. Things aren't working as they are now. Separate the problem kids and fire the really bad teachers.

Have you ever heard of a teacher being actually FIRED for bad performance? I haven't and don't give me that line about how can they evaluate teachers the good teachers know who the bad teachers are. I had a teacher tell me she knew which students had a particular math teacher the year before because they hadn't learned anything from this teacher and she had to teach them what they should have learned the year before while at the same time teaching her own subject.

This has been going on for YEARS. Every year she gets stuck with numerous students who are lacking and every year it is the students of this one teacher. Everyone knows this and nobody does anything about it. I consider it in the same class as nurses and other doctors not reporting a doctor they know is incompetent or comes to work drunk. You people are letting the bad teachers hurt our kids!

As a Florida parent, I am 100% against this. Every teacher in my DS's school is too. It isn't that they aren't willing to be graded on performance. I think they all would accept that as a PART of the criteria. However, solely on FCAT isn't the answer.

The kids hate FCAT. My bright, generally academically motivated 3rd grader told me "I only have to get a 2 to pass 3rd grade." He didn't care to try his best (which is a 5 and he is entirely capable of getting at least a 4.) As long as he got a 2, he was happy. Why should teachers be evaluated solely on a test that kids only care if they meet the minimum.

His school gets 50% free or reduced lunch, we are one of the college educated involved families and my kid doesn't care about the test. Think of how some of the unmotivated students with little parent support feel.

Florida teachers aren't unionized. At least my son's public school isn't.

And I DO know of a teacher, in a unionized Illinois high school, who was fired for performance. My freshman Algebra teacher was horrible and she was fired for it!

 

[moburg]

But are you being asked to do the impossible?

Honestly, if you're a teacher with a child who hates authority, hates school, adamantly doesn't want to be there, checks out mentally the entire time you're teaching a lesson plan you've worked your butt off to put together -- what in the name of all that is holy are you supposed to do about it within the confines of your classroom?

I definitely think there needs to be educational reform -- not all kids are going to college, not all kids are going to successfully complete an academic program. I don't think that's the end of the world. I think there should be more apprenticeship programs, more emphasis into moving kids who aren't school-oriented out of the classroom and into work environments. Why force them to sit in a geometry class that will mean zero, zilch to them ever?

But don't penalize teachers when they're simply doing the job they've been given within the confines of the current public school system.

Frequently!

 

[golfgal]

All states require high school science but just not physics. There are many different types of science class offered. Not everyone is cut out to understand all of the physics objectives.

According to that bill that was posted they are going to start requiring BIOLOGY, CHEMISTRY and PHYSICS. It sounds to me like they don't require any science now. There isn't much else in the science field besides these three basics.

 

[moburg]

I like the idea of merit pay for teachers. All teachers are not equal, and the better ones deserve more money. How do you assess how well they teach? How do you assess any employee? Timeliness, preparedness, attitude, work product (student progress, test scores, classroom evaluations), level of education, etc.....

I agree! There can be a debate on how to evaluate, but there is nothing inherently wrong with merit pay, even for teachers.

 

[sbell111]

As a Florida teacher, I am NOT happy. I don't think I've spoke to a single teacher who thinks this is a good idea...

I can't for the life of me imagine an employee that would favor being evaluated based on his performance if he had other options. Sadly, every job that I've ever held has based my advancement/increases on my performance (with the exception of an adjunct professor position that I once held part-time).

That being said, while I doubt that the bill is the perfect solution, it does move in the correct direction.

 

[LisaR]

According to that bill that was posted they are going to start requiring BIOLOGY, CHEMISTRY and PHYSICS. It sounds to me like they don't require any science now. There isn't much else in the science field besides these three basics.

Currently, four years of science and four years of math are required to graduate in FL. However, there are also three or four different paths you can take. These aren't the correct names but they are along the lines of a vocational path or college prep path, if that makes sense. The child that is not planning on going to a four year university could take liberal arts math and astronomy or physical science. Now that same kid will now be required to take physics and algebra 2. Not every child is going to go on to college, nor should they. But in order to have a FL H.S. diploma, they will now need the higher level classes that the college prep kids are taking. I know some kids in this state that wouldn't be getting their diploma with these requirements. Once they discover that some of the kids can't cut the higher level classes, they won't change the law because that would be like admitting they were wrong. Instead, they will dumb down the curriculum even more and algebra 2 will be on the level that a 6th grader can do.

This will also make it even harder for teachers to get their merit raise since raises will be based on test scores and now the kids that aren't college prep are being forced to take classes they will probably do poorly in.

 

[golfgal]

Currently, four years of science and four years of math are required to graduate in FL. However, there are also three or four different paths you can take. These aren't the correct names but they are along the lines of a vocational path or college prep path, if that makes sense. The child that is not planning on going to a four year university could take liberal arts math and astronomy or physical science. Now that same kid will now be required to take physics and algebra 2. Not every child is going to go on to college, nor should they. But in order to have a FL H.S. diploma, they will now need the higher level classes that the college prep kids are taking. I know some kids in this state that wouldn't be getting their diploma with these requirements. Once they discover that some of the kids can't cut the higher level classes, they won't change the law because that would be like admitting they were wrong. Instead, they will dumb down the curriculum even more and algebra 2 will be on the level that a 6th grader can do.

This will also make it even harder for teachers to get their merit raise since raises will be based on test scores and now the kids that aren't college prep are being forced to take classes they will probably do poorly in.

Ok, this makes more sense. In our high school you can take general BIO, honors BIO or AP Bio, for example. They generally teach the same information, that pace at which it is taught is different. They have elective offerings for science classes as well-everything from advanced biology to zoological science where the kids actually take classes at the zoo and help with the animals. These electives are generally for kids that want some kind of career in science or have an interest in the sciences. Usually only juniors and seniors take these since freshman and sophomores don't have room in their schedules for many electives.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I don't live in Florida, but I don't have enough information to give an opinion.

How does the bill measure student performance? Is there any waiting based on a student's base abilities (ie special needs vs gifted)? Is is based on an increase in a student's performance (Johnny went from "Below Basic" to "Basic"), or an increase in the performance of the students in the teacher's care (59% of students in 2008 were Proficient in Mr. X's class, 72% in 2009 were Proficient)?

There are a lot of variables to consider when looking at teacher performance. I doubt they got it right.

 

[daughtersrus]

Like I said in my post, I'm open for evaluation methods that don't rely strictly on testing. I just don't accept the notion that there is no way to distinguish between teachers that perform well and those that do not.

Evaluations are done. At least in the schools that I'm familiar with.

I agree that the manager/employee relationship is not precisely the same as a teacher/student relationship. I raised the manager issue to rebut the notion that teacher's are unique in being judged on how others perform. They are not. In a great many circumstances in life, our job performance depends on how others perform, whether they are students, employees, peers, suppliers, or even customers. The fact that teachers do not have 100% control over their students does not absolve them from any responsibility for their student's performance.

That's like saying that a doctor is responsible if his/her patient gets cancer because he/she didn't follow the doctor's orders. Or a dentist is responsible if his/her patient gets a cavity because they didn't floss like he/she taught them to.

I can do a reasonable job of assessing the teachers in my kid's schools.

How do you do that?

Testing is not the only way and may be suited only as a portion of the assessment process, but some method that differentiated in pay between good and bad teachers would be a tremendous benefit to society.

What are your suggestions?

Knowing what these teachers were dealing with they would be evaluated accordingly. They should get hazard pay in my opinion.

So are you saying that SpEd teachers should be paid more than GenEd teachers? How would this work when there are many SpEd students mainstreamed into GenEd?

Have you ever heard of a teacher being actually FIRED for bad performance?

Yes, many times.

I consider it in the same class as nurses and other doctors not reporting a doctor they know is incompetent or comes to work drunk. You people are letting the bad teachers hurt our kids!

Our FL senate is hard at work today. In addition to SB 6 that was passed earlier today (the original topic of this post) they have also passed SB 4, making graduation requirements tougher. I am not sure why every child in the state of FL would NEED physics and algebra 2 if they are not on a path to go to a university.

The legislation would add geometry, algebra II, biology, chemistry and physics to the list of courses needed to graduate and require students to take at least one virtual class.

Would this be done during a period at school? if not, what about students that don't have access to the internet at home?

I think we should put politicians in the schools and make them teach for a semester.

Perhaps they'll come out with some sense of reality as to what teachers are facing in the schools -- and begin to offer some truly effective solutions for educational reform.

More tests, more hoops for teachers to jump through -- not working.

I agree. For example, Arne Duncan doesn't have a teaching degree.

Frequently!

Can you please explain?