How 'bout that Gentrification?

[eliza61]

No such thing as rent control here. If a building owner wants to triple the rent, nothing to stop him.

Now, the plus side of that is that with the market dictating price, there would never be such a dramatic increase. It would go up a little at a time because otherwise he'd never be able to keep tenants.

There are pluses and minuses to the program.

It's more like an agreement between tenants and owners to protect poor and middle class families from getting pushed out.

Remember we're talking NYC, apartments do get out of control rents.
So basically a landlord can increase the rent "reasonably". So a landlord who wants to triple the rent can be taken to court where he would have to prove why he needs such a dramatic increase. This prevents him from basically kicking out good families simply because some one else can pay more.

Now on the landlords side, he gets mucho tax breaks and building maintenance assistance.

city apartment culture is a bit different. I find outside NYC people view apartments as a "step" on the road to single family homes. My entire family has lived in the same building for a good 40 years. My dad came back from Korea got a unit for his bride, then his 4 sisters moved into apartments in the same building. My cousin lianne and her family have lived in the same building, same apartment for close to 70 years when my great aunts moved up from Tennesse (sp) in the 1920's. so imagine being forced out for no other reason because some one wealthier wanted your home. where would you go?

 

[eliza61]

That's the thing; he doesn't live in his old neighborhood, but he did move to Harlem right after he had his first big hit. He made a VERY handsome profit on the house that he bought in 1990 for $400K and sold a few yrs.later for at least $1M. He is one of the guys who let the Barbarians in. I guess he can argue that he didn't realize how they were going to act when they got there, but I don't buy that. Old money very seldom flies far from the nest, but new money does. New money is also not renowned for its respect for old tradition.

NYC is kind of a special category because of rent control. (Rent control, for those not familiar, was a law passed 1943 that restricted applicable rent increases for residents of existing buildings in NYC. The terms kept increases well below inflation and market value, and families who lived in those buildings were very careful to never let the lease expire or the apartment become vacant, because if that happened the landlord could raise the rent to market rates for the new tenants. Leases were willed down through families to preserve the grandfathered requirements. The laws were updated in 1971 and changed to a system that is called rent-stabilized, and that created a new group of grandfathered buildings/tenants whose rent stayed below new market rates, though the terms were not as good as in pre-war buildings. Eliza will say that my explanation is overly simplistic (and it absolutely is), but the takeaway is that inheriting a place in a pre-war building was and still is the golden apple of being a native New Yorker. Rent control created a tradition of multi-generational living in neighborhoods that have it, so that as new generations came of age, they could be added to the lease and keep the apartment in the family. FTR, my extended family has a couple of places in two rent-controlled buildings in the Astoria section of Queens. They have been continuously occupied by some member of my mother's family since about 1924. Native New Yorkers have been conditioned to stay loyal to their neighborhoods.)

LoL, not at all Ursula, in fact that's a great explanation.

You're last line speaks to a problem with gentrification that is hard to measure.
And in the interest of full disclosure, I moved to a gentrified neighborhood here in Philly, so I'm totally not against the program.

We're Harlemites. I remember after I graduated from college my dad said he wanted to buy a house in queens. the first thing I said was,
you want me to move to a 2 fare zone? are you kidding?

like I said, my family has been in Harlem (and is still there) since Jesus was a boy.

Now the up side of gentrification with one of my cousins building is that it went Co-op and they were able to buy their unit. so now they have a bit more protection because they are in a co-operative.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Yeah it's a double edged sword - the whole topic, really.

Here, apartments are still reasonable. But single family housing in a good neighborhood is pretty much reserved for the wealthy or those willing to commute.

 

[clarabelle]

If you are a podcast listener
The "Slate Politcal Gabfest" had a discussion about this one this weeks show
You can find it on I-tunes for free

 

[skylizard]

Yeah it's a double edged sword - the whole topic, really.

Truly. It benefits some and hurts others. My parents have lived in DC for 4 decades and own an apartment in a now wealthy part of the city. Back then, it wasn't a wealthy area and they were able to buy at very low prices. Nowadays, you're looking at a studio apartment costing more than my house here in NC. Had they been renting they definitely would've been forced out of the city. But since they own the apartment outright, they'll actually benefit greatly when they do decide to sell. Another upside is that the influx of money has improved the neighborhood greatly. The downside is the ridiculous rent prices and cost of living.

 

[snapppyd]

sorry schmeck, I love ya but this article is for the birds.

I was born and raised in Harlem. 153rd and riverside drive. and believe me when ole gentrification came to down, all heck broke out.

Here in the nutshell is what happen to my building.

My building was an old prewar building, meaning it was big and had some serious archeticual (sp) designs. huge lobby, winding staircases, iron works molding the works. anyhoo most of the tenants were what we call in NY rent control.
bottom line when the owners of the building found out he could get upwards to 4K a month for units that were now getting 1500 month. well let the shenanigans begin. My apartment 10d was huge, back in the day you had extended family living together. so the apartment I grew up in was 5 bedroom 3 baths etc. Now granted my grandparents lived with me but in NY apartment scene it was big.


.

I must have you confused with another poster, I could swear you once posted about a tiny apartment with no air, no grass, 4 kids in one room.

 

[Arielle22]

I grew up in Boston, close to where the Mark and Donnie Wahlberg were from. My father grew up in a home that was up the street from my childhood home. My brother still lives there and the areas have gone downhill slightly. Sections of it are being gentrified.

I was getting my nails done a few weeks ago at a salon midway between my childhood home and current home. I struck up a conversation with another customer and found out she lived in the neighborhood I did. I had to refrain from laughing when she talked about an intersection with a different emphasis on the syllables. It sounded so pretentious but then I might be biased.

Same thing happened in South Boston. Young professionals realize that you can be close to the city and once you put a roof deck you can have great views. All the working class people are looked down on and their habits are viewed as odd and uncouth. Sitting on the front stairs, smoking and talking or the traditional double parking of cars; both viewed with dismay.

I have no problems with neighborhoods changing. I don't like the thought process that the new people are making it "better". They may be changing things to their liking but it isn't necessarily better.

 

[eliza61]

I must have you confused with another poster, I could swear you once posted about a tiny apartment with no air, no grass, 4 kids in one room.

Pre war building no air and definitely no grass. Well I guess central park qualifies

 

[SAMCRO]

I must have you confused with another poster, I could swear you once posted about a tiny apartment with no air, no grass, 4 kids in one room.

Your not confused! See attached.



eliza61

We're Americans, we're survivors




Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 17,928


I don't know MrsPete, like you I grew up in a tiny NYC apartment with 6 other people and no air, no place to play, no grass. I was miserable. I mean I was blessed because I had a loving family but would I want my kids to grow up like that? Would I want 4 kids sharing 1 bedroom to bring my mortgage down to 25%? No way. (disser, I am not saying this is a bad thing so please do flame me screaming that it is insenstive. , this is simply my opinion) So I don't know if I would scale back simply to fit into some preconcieved percentile.
It's sort of like what you said about how our grandparents saved back in the day, so in the defense of the houses today, just because our parents lived that way doesn't necessarily mean it's ideal.

We tried to find a balance. Our first house was a 2 bedroom townhome. mortgage was $570 bucks. had we stayed there it would have been paid off but with 3 kids and 1 dog, a tineey tiny kitchen, I would have been less than a happy camper.

So my constant struggle is how to find a balance of enjoying my life now while also planning for retirement. while it's true I know a few people who made some questionable money calls, I know just as many senior citizens who are now regretting never taking that trip to Europe or buying that new car.
__________________
"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear."~ Nelson Mandela

 

[snapppyd]

Your not confused! See attached.


eliza61

We're Americans, we're survivors

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 17,928


I don't know MrsPete, like you I grew up in a tiny NYC apartment with 6 other people and no air, no place to play, no grass. I was miserable. I mean I was blessed because I had a loving family but would I want my kids to grow up like that? Would I want 4 kids sharing 1 bedroom to bring my mortgage down to 25%? No way. (disser, I am not saying this is a bad thing so please do flame me screaming that it is insenstive. , this is simply my opinion) So I don't know if I would scale back simply to fit into some preconcieved percentile.




My building was an old prewar building, meaning it was big and had some serious archeticual (sp) designs. huge lobby, winding staircases, iron works molding the works. anyhoo most of the tenants were what we call in NY rent control.
bottom line when the owners of the building found out he could get upwards to 4K a month for units that were now getting 1500 month. well let the shenanigans begin. My apartment 10d was huge, back in the day you had extended family living together. so the apartment I grew up in was 5 bedroom 3 baths etc. Now granted my grandparents lived with me but in NY apartment scene it was big.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I don't see the conflict. "Tiny" compared to a house, "huge" compared to a typical NYC apt. Within the context of the individual threads, the terms are relative.

 

[snapppyd]

I don't see the conflict. "Tiny" compared to a house, "huge" compared to a typical NYC apt. Within the context of the individual threads, the terms are relative.

no, first she said her "apartment" was tiny. then she said her "apartment" was huge. two different meanings.

 

[EMode]

no, first she said her "apartment" was tiny. then she said her "apartment" was huge. two different meanings.

I think what Gumbo was trying to say is its all relative to what Eliza wants you to believe.

 

[NaLisa]

I think what Gumbo was trying to say is its all relative to what Eliza wants you to believe.

Ahhhh, thanks for the clarification. I couldn't understand how "tiny apartment" and "huge apartment" could be considered the same thing.

I just don't understand why someone would fabricate details of the home they grew up in years ago.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think what Gumbo was trying to say is its all relative to what Eliza wants you to believe.

No, not that at all.

Example, when I'm talking about my pickup truck to the general population, it's "huge".

Amongst 4wd enthusiasts, I would call it "tiny".

The size of the truck hasn't changed, but the point of reference has.

 

[snapppyd]

In no universe if a 5-bedroom, 3-bath apartment tiny.

Have a nice weekend, I've got to fly!!!

 

[Gumbo4x4]

In no universe if a 5-bedroom, 3-bath apartment tiny.

Have a nice weekend, I've got to fly!!!

Excluding other apartments, it's probably tiny in comparison to the average DIS member home.

 

[SAMCRO]

I think the size of the apartment changes, based on the point trying to be made in each individual post!

 

[Metsfan520]

Excluding other apartments, it's probably tiny in comparison to the average DIS member home.

Please. It had 5 bedrooms! My home doesn't have 5 bedrooms. That's huge.

 

[arminnie]

Neighborhoods change. Sometimes up - sometimes down.

The neighborhood where I grew up in the 50s was mostly middle class with one street of some very big nice homes and one housing project. Some well to do people but mostly blue collar workers - plumbers, electricians, baker, etc. Very safe with great schools to walk to.

Today the neighborhood is a hell hole. Drug houses, boarded up houses the elementary school is the worst in the city. And yes a lot of poor people who shouldn't have to live in that mess. The projects have been torn down.

Some of the homes were really nice - big and impressive. I know a few younger people who have gone in and bought great homes for a song.

So is "gentrification" wrong in this case - restoring a neighborhood to what it once was? Are we just supposed to let all old buildings deteriorate and have no one fix them up?

I hate the idea of warehousing poor people together. I was very, very poor growing up. But having the opportunity to see how others lived was really important to me. I learned that if I worked hard and went to college I could make something of myself.