How are points allocated?

[crisi]

I don't think they were slow, they did some fairly major reallocations a few years ago that were met with many more complaints than accolades, because people that were used to travel in a particular season could no longer do so without purchasing more points and now the charts resemble more of the originals.

It's basically is that you can't please everyone and people are used to the charts in the basic structure they were presented with...and they bought points accordingly.

Now it is true that many owners travel patters change over the years, but it is easier to plan for those changes with fairly stable charts, than having points change dramatically year to year. If points were in continual change, DVC sales would suffer dramatically.

And that is a big problem. While they can contractually reallocate points for demand, major changes, such as increasing points for early December, are likely to create no problems than they solve. There will be a lot of complaining, and ate possibly some lawsuits if the changes are drastic enough. Meanwhile, you drop the points to go in April, that doesn't mean April people a happy. Not every DVC member had unlimited vacation time to use all their points and you don't want to pay dues on points you aren't using.

And then Disney marketing adds rum to dole whips in April, puts in a bicycle race and a hot air balloon festival, or hosts an international Lego tournament, and then the points are out of whack again because you've increased demand.

 

[luckyman_apd]

Families are less likely to do any major traveling in October versus April. In October people with kids are trying to save up for Christmas presents and saving to pay for travel to see relatives for Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Exactly. Over all my years of teaching it is rare for me to see students miss school for vacations in the first or second marking period. It's just too early in the year for them to be out a while. I've spoken to cast members and they've told me September and October it's a ghost town compared to the rest of the year. Why? School just started.

As for the points seasons? It's all supply and demand. If points were the same, I'm not going to travel some other time just because the time I want is full. I probably wouldn't buy. I can only go certain times of year and I bought according to the points needed for those times. DVC is made to be at capacity year round....so if demand is high, the points should be higher to level off the demand. If demand is low, lower points requirements can entice people to travel to help fill the supply. It's the same rational in their pricing in their hotel rooms.

 

[LisaS]

So would you say that DVC had been slow to adjust to the change in members' travel patterns? Is it safe to say a re-allocation should be forthcoming....or do they not care?

Reallocation is not a simple task. The number of points needed to book every room over the entire year is fixed. If they lower parts of April, they have to raise an equivalent number of points somewhere else in the year.

April and March are special cases because Easter falls within one of those months and Disney moves the two weeks surrounding Easter from Magic to Premier season every year. The two weeks surrounding Easter the prior year move down from Premier to Magic. Everything balances. Now imagine the last half of April was moved to Choice Season. What happens when Easter falls on the last Sunday in April? Two weeks move from Choice to Premier but the two weeks moved out of Premier may have been Magic weeks. Oops now we're out of balance and compensating changes would need to be made somewhere, causing ripple effects in the charts every year.

I'm guessing they want to keep all of March and all of April in the same season to avoid that problem. No matter when those two weeks surrounding Easter fall (March, April or a bit of both) they can easily move them up to Premier and down again the next year.

 

[mjc2003]

Families are less likely to do any major traveling in October versus April. In October people with kids are trying to save up for Christmas presents and saving to pay for travel to see relatives for Thanksgiving and Christmas. While October is popular at Disney because of food and wine, it is a more single adult crowd or couples without children. They tend overall to spend fewer nights, and likely also spend less on souvenirs and stuff...but more on food.

I'm sure this is true, but I would contend that families with really younger kids (like mine) make it a point to travel at off times in the fall before kids get to an age where pulling them out of school is difficult. So you are right, most families probably don't travel much in October but families with kids around grades 3rd or 4th and below do travel that time of year. We do, our friends all do, and we all dread the day when we cannot!

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. The variable pricing, along with length of stay restrictions in the cash world is yield management. It's a practice to maximize profit on their rooms inventory.

DVC doesn't have the same flexibility. We own the resorts. They're not selling when we book. They're taking orders. They only make money at the sales centers.

So they can't make major changes to the seasonal rates. People have been buying DvC for 20 years. They have bought an annual allotment that gets them their week(s) during the time they want to travel. Even the minor tweaks they do make bring on complaints out here.

DvC can't control sold out resorts, but pricing a ten year member out of being able to travel the way they bought to do is in their control, and a bit of a violation of an agreement they made.

As previously noted, October demand has been manufactured since the original seasons were defined. Likewise, many schools used to have a week off on varying weeks of April, depending on the county. This year, Easter is the last day of March.

I agree that my analogy is off base. But I don't really agree that they'd be violating any agreements by reallocating points to meet demand. The only thing that they contractually agree to keep fixed is the number of points at the resort, but the allocation is their discretion. They've already changed the allotments, so clearly it's within their right t do so.
To this point, what about the 10 year member that suddenly can't get a room anymore in the fall when it used to be easy, because the demand is through the roof...and now they are "forced" to travel in the late spring when the points are higher? Are their interests being best served by DVC management not evening out the demand by reallocating points? Hardly.
I bought exactly enough points for a 1 bedroom at BCV in the fall. I know the demand is raging in the fall. Can I really accuse them of breaking our "agreement" if they were to raise the point costs in the fall in response to rampant demand? I wouldn't think so.

DVC is made to be at capacity year round....so if demand is high, the points should be higher to level off the demand. If demand is low, lower points requirements can entice people to travel to help fill the supply.

That's my point. It's made to be at or near capacity. That's the goal. So if late spring is rife with availability but has high point costs, the point allocations are not correct.

Reallocation is not a simple task. The number of points needed to book every room over the entire year is fixed. If they lower parts of April, they have to raise an equivalent number of points somewhere else in the year.

April and March are special cases because Easter falls within one of those months and Disney moves the two weeks surrounding Easter from Magic to Premier season every year. The two weeks surrounding Easter the prior year move down from Premier to Magic. Everything balances. Now imagine the last half of April was moved to Choice Season. What happens when Easter falls on the last Sunday in April? Two weeks move from Choice to Premier but the two weeks moved out of Premier may have been Magic weeks. Oops now we're out of balance and compensating changes would need to be made somewhere, causing ripple effects in the charts every year.

I'm guessing they want to keep all of March and all of April in the same season to avoid that problem. No matter when those two weeks surrounding Easter fall (March, April or a bit of both) they can easily move them up to Premier and down again the next year.

I agree that if they lower points in April they would raise them at another time of year, and do understand the complexity of the system, and how it's tenuous to shake that tree because the bees might come flying out. I sort of see it as being their job to keep a balance, and not just to say "Well, when we started DVC this was the general trend so let's just pretend that's still the case".

 

[LisaS]

I agree that if they lower points in April they would raise them at another time of year, and do understand the complexity of the system, and how it's tenuous to shake that tree because the bees might come flying out. I sort of see it as being their job to keep a balance, and not just to say "Well, when we started DVC this was the general trend so let's just pretend that's still the case".

I agree with you that it's their job to reallocate when things get out of whack. They were quick to do that when demand for the THVs was greater than expected though that reallocation was limited to SSR. They did it to help balance demand for weekends vs mid-week and the ripple effects from that caused problems for those of us who suddenly did not have enough points for our usual stay (even those of us who did not limit our stay to Sun-Thu). They did it when they reclassified some Savanna View rooms at AKV to Standard View and when they made similar changes to rooms at BLT.

None of those changes involved moving weeks from one season to another however. There are limits to how much the points can change each year so tackling the job of moving things between seasons is a lot more difficult to do and may even need to be done in a series of changes.

 

[CarolMN]

....(snip).......And then Disney marketing adds rum to dole whips in April, ..........and then the points are out of whack again because you've increased demand.

Hmmmm, I wonder if the marketing people are reading this thread?

If Gaston & Company can serve wine, Cap'n Jack should be able to serve rum!

 

[Sammie]

Also I am sure that lower points attract DVC members to book during traditionally slower park occupancy times, thus helping to keep Disney World close to full year round.

 

[LisaS]

Hmmmm, I wonder if the marketing people are reading this thread?

If Gaston & Company can serve wine, Cap'n Jack should be able to serve rum!

I think crisi is referring to one of the items being offered at the new food booths at the Flower & Garden festival this year. I'm looking forward to trying one!

It will be available in the "Pineapple Promenade" in the WS somewhere near Canada. The official description reads "Dole® Whip with Siesta Key Spiced Rum".

It is a good point though. The Flower & Garden festival doesn't draw anywhere near the number of guests as the Food & Wine festival so now Disney is adding a bit of F&W to F&G. Who knows what that might do to those late April bookings if this becomes a permanent feature of F&G.

ETA: For more info see this thread on the DIS' Restaurants forum.

 

[CarolMN]

I think crisi is referring to one of the items being offered at the new food booths at the Flower & Garden festival this year. I'm looking forward to trying one!

It will be available in the "Pineapple Promenade" in the WS somewhere near Canada. The official description reads "Dole® Whip with Siesta Key Spiced Rum".

It is a good point though. The Flower & Garden festival doesn't draw anywhere near the number of guests as the Food & Wine festival so now Disney is adding a bit of F&W to F&G. Who knows what that might do to those late April bookings if this becomes a permanent feature of F&G.

ETA: For more info see this thread on the DIS' Restaurants forum.

Thanks for the info - I thought she was being funny. I've only noticed dole whips at the MK or at the Poly.

This is our year to go for the Holidays. I have to wait until next year to do F&G and F&W. So I haven't' been paying too much attention to F&G or F&W news - helps me not to feel sad that I'm missing those events this year.

But I still think rum in the Adventure Land dole whips is a good idea!

 

[crisi]

I think crisi is referring to one of the items being offered at the new food booths at the Flower & Garden festival this year. I'm looking forward to trying one!

It will be available in the "Pineapple Promenade" in the WS somewhere near Canada. The official description reads "Dole® Whip with Siesta Key Spiced Rum".

It is a good point though. The Flower & Garden festival doesn't draw anywhere near the number of guests as the Food & Wine festival so now Disney is adding a bit of F&W to F&G. Who knows what that might do to those late April bookings if this becomes a permanent feature of F&G.

ETA: For more info see this thread on the DIS' Restaurants forum.

Or anything else to draw people. I would have never thought that it would be hard to get a room over Marathon weekend in January - who knew there were that many Disney/DVC runners.

'Course, we know booze will bring them. Walt may be turning over in his grave, but its certainly one way to bring people in

 

[Deb & Bill]

Or anything else to draw people. I would have never thought that it would be hard to get a room over Marathon weekend in January - who knew there were that many Disney/DVC runners. ...

30,000 this past January.

 

[Dean]

I don't really understand why we have different point seasons. Why not make all dates the same, when the place is booked, it's booked.

Bill

They don't have too and it's true that the system is self leveling to a degree and thus all points will be used or lost. However, DVCMC has the responsibility for managing the resorts for the benefit of the members as a whole which means allocating points in such as way as to level demand somewhat. A system that is too far out of balance creates far more phone calls and far less members satisfaction.

That sort of makes my point. If people prefer October to late April, why isn't April priced accordingly?

None of us can speak for DVD/DVC but my take is that the seasons are based on the demand and usage from the late 80's and very early 90's and there have been only minor changes since. IMO, DVCMC should/must adjust to even out demand but they also don't want to micromanage the issue, it's a balance that will never be perfect.

For some reason I'm having trouble copying quotes to combine them so I'll address some of the other issues here. DVD/DVC/DVCMC have no risk from a credible law suit or any significant risk from real complaints if they do what I just mentioned above. That's not to say no one will complain but it's not significant or long lasting. I'll say again as I've said many times before, what the sales people told anyone that isn't in writing has NO meaning whatsoever and provides no real risk of legal proceedings.

 

[crisi]

They don't have too and it's true that the system is self leveling to a degree and thus all points will be used or lost. However, DVCMC has the responsibility for managing the resorts for the benefit of the members as a whole which means allocating points in such as way as to level demand somewhat. A system that is too far out of balance creates far more phone calls and far less members satisfaction.

None of us can speak for DVD/DVC but my take is that the seasons are based on the demand and usage from the late 80's and very early 90's and there have been only minor changes since. IMO, DVCMC should/must adjust to even out demand but they also don't want to micromanage the issue, it's a balance that will never be perfect.

For some reason I'm having trouble copying quotes to combine them so I'll address some of the other issues here. DVD/DVC/DVCMC have no risk from a credible law suit or any significant risk from real complaints if they do what I just mentioned above. That's not to say no one will complain but it's not significant or long lasting. I'll say again as I've said many times before, what the sales people told anyone that isn't in writing has NO meaning whatsoever and provides no real risk of legal proceedings.

Anyone can sue for anything, and nuisance suits are a huge problem for Disney - and most major corporations. Make enough people angry and you'll have a lot of them.

 

[disneynutz]

Originally Posted by disneynutz
I don't really understand why we have different point seasons. Why not make all dates the same, when the place is booked, it's booked.

They don't have too and it's true that the system is self leveling to a degree and thus all points will be used or lost. However, DVCMC has the responsibility for managing the resorts for the benefit of the members as a whole which means allocating points in such as way as to level demand somewhat. A system that is too far out of balance creates far more phone calls and far less members satisfaction.

It still seems to me that the issue of seasons is complex and not perfect and the benefit isn't clear cut. Owners with points to burn get to stay during the popular high point seasons and owners with less points have to stay in a smaller room and/or during a cheaper season.

Is it possible that DVCMC creates the higher point seasons and increases the required points at resorts like THV to cause people to buy more points and increase sales? After one of the reallocations when owners came up short points they started the one time use buy points program. Since those are developer points I'm guessing that the proceeds go back to Disney.

Bill

 

[Chuck S]

For some reason I'm having trouble copying quotes to combine them so I'll address some of the other issues here. DVD/DVC/DVCMC have no risk from a credible law suit or any significant risk from real complaints if they do what I just mentioned above. That's not to say no one will complain but it's not significant or long lasting. I'll say again as I've said many times before, what the sales people told anyone that isn't in writing has NO meaning whatsoever and provides no real risk of legal proceedings.

Yes, it seems to be working OK in IE, but it won't work in Google Chrome. The search function has also been down for a few days. They are working on it.

 

[Dean]

Anyone can sue for anything, and nuisance suits are a huge problem for Disney - and most major corporations. Make enough people angry and you'll have a lot of them.

Sure but Disney doesn't worry much about those type because they can't control them. They're like the performer who's lawyer got a call from the lawyer of someone who attended a show and stated they were going to sue because their smoke effects caused a respiratory issue and put the man in the hospital. The performer's response was that the man should stay away from cool mist humidiers in the future so bring it on.

 

[Dean]

Originally Posted by disneynutz
I don't really understand why we have different point seasons. Why not make all dates the same, when the place is booked, it's booked.



It still seems to me that the issue of seasons is complex and not perfect and the benefit isn't clear cut. Owners with points to burn get to stay during the popular high point seasons and owners with less points have to stay in a smaller room and/or during a cheaper season.

Is it possible that DVCMC creates the higher point seasons and increases the required points at resorts like THV to cause people to buy more points and increase sales? After one of the reallocations when owners came up short points they started the one time use buy points program. Since those are developer points I'm guessing that the proceeds go back to Disney.

Bill

There really are 2 ares of issue as I see it. One is sales. If a potential buyer is looking at DVC and all the points are the same, they correctly realize they'll never get the popular times and thus sales are less. That's one of the benefits of the points system, you can sell every point like it's the most prime week in the system but in reality only a few people can stay there. It also helps you sell more points to those that can afford it and will use them and less to others.

The other side is as I noted and related to management/usage. A system that's not balanced will create far more calls for a number of reasons and far less satisfaction and thus more complaints because everyone can't get what they want and "were promised by their guide".

While it's possible to manipulate the points charts to encourage some to buy more points, I don't think there's enough potential benefit for sales to justify the cost/aggravation of it. You'd have to be pretty out there conspiracy wise I believe to truly believe this. IMO THV should have been it's own separate resort and not part of SSR but I see it from sides as I do this point as well.

 

[Dean]

Yes, it seems to be working OK in IE, but it won't work in Google Chrome. The search function has also been down for a few days. They are working on it.

It worked the first time last night but not the second 1-2 minutes later or this morning. I'm on Safari on the Mac. Here's what it puts when copy a post.

- See more at: http://www.disboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47673305#sthash.GnpIOpNW.dpuf

 

[Chuck S]

It worked the first time last night but not the second 1-2 minutes later or this morning. I'm on Safari on the Mac. Here's what it puts when copy a post.

- See more at: http://www.disboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47673305#sthash.GnpIOpNW.dpuf

That is what chrome (on a Windows machine) is copy & pasting as well. But my IE seems to be working OK. It copies the location of the text, but not the text itself.