Horrible Fans at the Olympics!

[spagheddie]

Originally posted by tinatark
So, Paul should give away the gold medal that was awarded to him, what about the silver and bronze medal winners? Should they pass those medals along to the *rightful* owners, too?

Oh, and while we're at it, there are quite a few official calls that caused my NFL team to lose last season, can I move those *losses* to the *win* column? Uh oh, we may have to replay the Super Bowl.

Officals are just that - officials, with stops in place if a coach thinks the call was wrong... *coaches challenge* in the NFL, rules in the Olympics. Unfortunately, if you don't refute the call immediately (especially this one, which the Korean coaching staff should be under fire from the team members for missing)... the official rulings stand. Heck, in the NFL, even WITH instant replay, officials make bad calls. That darn human factor.

That's the point!!!! An error in scoring the actual performance is acceptable. Lowering the maximum point total incorrectly before the performance puts the athlete at a disadvantage and that is not acceptable.

If a ref misses a call and your football team loses those are the breaks, we've all been there. But if even by mistake the refs put your team at a disadvantage before the game even started only to find out about it after the fact you'd have a legitmate gripe.

My feeling is it's not about the scoring anymore, we can all go back and forth and slice it up any way we wish. The bottomline now is can Paul Hamm live with himself? Apparently he can.

 

[Az Pirates]

Originally posted by spagheddie
That's the point!!!! An error in scoring the actual performance is acceptable. Lowering the maximum point total incorrectly before the performance puts the athlete at a disadvantage and that is not acceptable.

If a ref misses a call and your football team loses those are the breaks, we've all been there. But if even by mistake the refs put your team at a disadvantage before the game even started only to find out about it after the fact you'd have a legitmate gripe.

My feeling is it's not about the scoring anymore, we can all go back and forth and slice it up any way we wish. The bottomline now is can Paul Hamm live with himself? Apparently he can.

While I don't completely agree with your position, I absolutely see the difference between an improper start value and missed deductions.

I AM disappointed that Paul is using the missed deuctions to try and prove that even with the judging error he deserves the medal. Just not even the same issue.

However, the Korean coaches should have been all over the improper start value AT the meet, before the next rotation.
A lot of time goes into putting together just the right routine and they had to KNOW what the start value should have been.
They are also responsible for knowing what the rules are to file an appeal and when and to whom they need to complain. They also need to be vocal enough to get it taken care of properly.

That said, I do think that there are HUGE problems with judging in gymnastics!

If you think what you saw at the olympics was bad - you are all invited to come watch a local meet where the judges are often also coaches at one of the competing gyms.


You can pretty much predict which team the majority of medal winners will be from on each event based on who is sitting at the judging table.

 

[gina2000]

So I guess this means that Japan's Kitajita should hand back his gold in the 100 breaststroke. The underwater pictures showed an illegal dolphin kick on the turn which is an automatic disqualification. There is no "let's go to the video tape" in swimming either but the whole world saw the replay. The US did not protest the fact that the official missed the call and no one is demanding that Kitajita hand over his gold. Should he???

Human error happens. It's not right and it's not fun to have it happen to you. If you're the recipient of a medal you shouldn't receive, there's not alot the rest of the field can do to unmedal you. The only recourse is to award a second gold if the mistake was noticed and protested at the time of the event.

 

[vernon]

Disney4us2000 said

Where did you hear or read that the American gymnastic assoc agrees the Korean deserved the gold? I think it's a stretch to say that that would've been the conclusion

The offer by the US Olympic committee to agree to the Korean receiving a Gold medal to go alongside the one originally given to Paul Hamm, suggests to me they acknowledge the error was made and that it would/could have effected the outcome. They are certainly saying he deserved A gold, whether they are saying he deserves Hamm's gold is a question of semantics.

Here's a link to one source of the story, but it's been well reported over here. If the US Olympic committee didn't feel an error had been made, then why make the offer? If they truly felt Hamm was the winner and the Korean was treated fairly why make the offer? They would ( or should) say our guy won fair and square and we're content with the result as stands.
http://www.channelone.com/news/2004/08/24/ap_olympics/

Darryl Seibel, a spokesman for the USOC. "We have indicated to them that we would be willing to consider the notion of a second gold medal being awarded," Seibel told the AP. "It's up to the Korean Olympic Committee to determine how it wants to proceed. There's a willingness to at least consider this idea."

--------------------------------------------

So I guess this means that Japan's Kitajita should hand back his gold in the 100 breaststroke. The underwater pictures showed an illegal dolphin kick on the turn which is an automatic disqualification. There is no "let's go to the video tape" in swimming either but the whole world saw the replay. The US did not protest the fact that the official missed the call and no one is demanding that Kitajita hand over his gold. Should he???

Same can be said for Aaron Piersol, without doubt he also kicked (front crawl) illegally into a turn, although Piersol was picked up by a judge, but very strangely the ruling was overturned because the judge concerned didn't explain himself well enough in English . I think both Kitajita and Piersol should have been DQed at the time of the race, but they weren't and (rightly IMHO) that isn't something that can be done retrospectively. IMHO there is a difference between their situation, a judge missing an infringement, and an error being made in a ruling prior to the athlete starting their race/routine.

 

[Kallison]

Not to change the subject but I heard Piersol's kick was an old rule and that it didn't apply anymore.

 

[snoopy]

Same can be said for Aaron Piersol, without doubt he also kicked (front crawl) illegally into a turn, although Piersol was picked up by a judge, but very strangely the ruling was overturned because the judge concerned didn't explain himself well enough in English . I think both Kitajita and Piersol should have been DQed at the time of the race, but they weren't and (rightly IMHO) that isn't something that can be done retrospectively. IMHO there is a difference between their situation, a judge missing an infringement, and an error being made in a ruling prior to the athlete starting their race/routine. [/B]

Without a doubt for whom? None of the commentators on NBC thought he made an illegal turn nor did any of the other judges. I watched it on instant replay since they showed it over and over again afterward, and while I'm no swimming expert, it sure didn't look any different than the turns the other men did.

 

[WilmaBud]

The race in which Piersol was questioned was the backstroke - not the front crawl. And the issue wasn't his kick; it was whether he flipped over onto his stomach too early on his turn (which, if done, would have slowed him down anyway). No one could detect that in the replays. The reason it got looked at again is because the American team registered a protest right away, which is in keeping with the rules. The S. Korean team did not register their protest in the time period set forth in the rules. Also, the automatic deduction for the S. Korean that was missed was not the reult of a missed hold, but it was the result of an extra hold.

Hardly any sport is perfectly fair. Human error comes into play in a lot of judging and referreeing. That's just part of sports. I can't believe what poor sports many of these Olympians are being.

 

[snoopy]

Wow.....great reply, Wilma Bud! You said exactly what I wanted to say, thanks!

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Wilma Bud and Snoopy, ITA with you both.

Wilma, you really said it very well. Even the swimmers who stood to gain medals if Piersol was DQed said they would be uncomfortable accepting a medal with so unfair a situation. That really says it all right there.

And I believe there were a few separate stories as to why the judge's DQ was overturned. One was he didn't fill out a report at all, another was he changed the reason for his DQ, and heaven knows what else. But the story frankly disappeared after the DQ was overturned and that is because there is no story there. It was a bogus call plain and simple.

As for Kitajima, although it sure as heck looked to me as though he performed an illegal kick, he was not DQed, so he should keep his medal. I don't recall Brendan Hansen or the USA lodging a formal protest (yeah, Piersol ran his mouth off, but he had nothing to do with the event). I did notice Kitajima was "cured" of his dolphin kick affliction for his next event, the 200 breaststroke, and there he beat Hansen decisively, fair and square. So it just isn't a big deal...and I don't think it really was for the US either, as far as formal protests go.

 

[disney4us2002]

I had a discussion with dh about Hamm's gold medal last night and he brought up an interesting point. He agrees with most of us that the scoring stunk, an error was made, and yes the Koreans should have caught it, but he still thinks Hamm should return the medal to the OIC - not give it to the Korean gymnast himself, but turn it back in because it would end the controversy and make him the sweetheart of the Olympics. Dh's view is that so many other countries already have negative image of USA and that if he keeps it, every interview from now til 10 yrs from now will still be about whether he really 'earned' the gold. Dh said he thinks Hamm's reputation would be far improved and he would probably get better commercial endorsements, etc.

What do you guys think about that?

 

[danacara]

Originally posted by disney4us2002
I had a discussion with dh ...
he still thinks Hamm should return the medal to the OIC - ...
What do you guys think about that?

Here's something interesting. Eddie Reese, coach of the US Swimming team, also coached Aaron Peirsol in college. Reese kept a very low-profile online journal during the games. When Peirsol's was DQ'ed, here's what Reese said ...

_________________________

«Previous | August 19, 2004 | Next»

This was a night that we taught everyone our national anthem. Amanda Beard won (the 200 breast), you heard it first here.

Aaron won the 200 backstroke, then was disqualified, then had his victory reinstated. His win was protested again, and that protest was finally defeated around 11 p.m. During the protest, I told him to hide the medal and not give it back anyway.

The press asked me if I thought he was targeted because of his earlier criticism of the officials connected with the (100) breaststroke. I would be surprised if that weren't the case. This is a funny business. Even if you are not very good (at officiating), you don't get your calls questioned. With the video equipment at our disposal, all questions could be eliminated.

_______________________________

http://www.texassports.com/mainpages/generalrelease/2003_04/olympics/081904_21.html

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by theSurlyMermaid

As for Kitajima, although it sure as heck looked to me as though he performed an illegal kick, he was not DQed, so he should keep his medal. I don't recall Brendan Hansen or the USA lodging a formal protest (yeah, Piersol ran his mouth off, but he had nothing to do with the event). I did notice Kitajima was "cured" of his dolphin kick affliction for his next event, the 200 breaststroke, and there he beat Hansen decisively, fair and square. So it just isn't a big deal...and I don't think it really was for the US either, as far as formal protests go.

Actually, the US team attempted to file a protest in regards to the dolphin kick, but the rules state a protest cannot be filed in a judgement call that was not made. In other words, a protest can be filed in order to overturn a judgement call (e.g. Piersol's case), but not to make a judgement call for the officials (Kitajima's case).

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by disney4us2002
I had a discussion with dh about Hamm's gold medal last night and he brought up an interesting point. He agrees with most of us that the scoring stunk, an error was made, and yes the Koreans should have caught it, but he still thinks Hamm should return the medal to the OIC - not give it to the Korean gymnast himself, but turn it back in because it would end the controversy and make him the sweetheart of the Olympics. Dh's view is that so many other countries already have negative image of USA and that if he keeps it, every interview from now til 10 yrs from now will still be about whether he really 'earned' the gold. Dh said he thinks Hamm's reputation would be far improved and he would probably get better commercial endorsements, etc.

What do you guys think about that?

Articles have been saying that all week. Unfortunately, if Hamm were to do it now, cynics would say he just did it because of media pressure and commercial endorsements. That tends to stain a status of "sweetheart".

I thought about that too, and even wondered if Hamm was considering all of these things from the marketing perspective (this was several days ago, now I think it's too late). One article said if Hamm gave back the medal, he'd be on Leno and Letterman for twice as long. I have to conclude that Paul Hamm has worked his whole life to be the first male Olympic All-Around gold medalist, not be on Leno or a Wheaties Box. I honestly don't think the money matters.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by Bob Slydell
Actually, the US team attempted to file a protest in regards to the dolphin kick, but the rules state a protest cannot be filed in a judgement call that was not made. In other words, a protest can be filed in order to overturn a judgement call (e.g. Piersol's case), but not to make a judgement call for the officials (Kitajima's case).

Thanks for setting me straight, Bob.

Well, we were forced to abide by the rules of protesting and so should the S. Koreans with regard to gymnastics. They did not follow protocol. I don't know why so many want to set a precedent that if you kick and scream loudly enough, you can get whatever you want, regardless of whether you follow the rules or not.

As one article I read today stated beautifully...There would be no competition, only lawyers.

 

[snoopy]

I don't think that money matters to him either, Mermaid. Honestly, these kids are wired to WIN. Their entire existence leading up to this point has been to win the Gold. And that is just what he did. I sure hope Paul Hamm knows that just as there are naysayers who will always think he didn't deserve the Gold, there are plenty of other people rooting for him.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by snoopy
I don't think that money matters to him either, Mermaid. Honestly, these kids are wired to WIN. Their entire existence leading up to this point has been to win the Gold. And that is just what he did. I sure hope Paul Hamm knows that just as there are naysayers who will always think he didn't deserve the Gold, there are plenty of other people rooting for him.

Snoopy your post beautifully states why I don't think Hamm is losing sleep over his future "reputation". Reputation is in the eye of the beholder. For as many people will question his gold, others will be there to offer unwavering support.

Paul Hamm did what no US male gymnast has EVER done in winning the gold. Gymnastics, this goal, is his whole life. How big a deal this must have been for him, and for USA gymnastics, quite frankly. To give up the medal to rake in commercial endorsements and be an Olympic Sweetheart is not what this kid's life goal is. People are going to have their opinion of him no matter what he does.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by disney4us2002
I had a discussion with dh about Hamm's gold medal last night and he brought up an interesting point. He agrees with most of us that the scoring stunk, an error was made, and yes the Koreans should have caught it, but he still thinks Hamm should return the medal to the OIC - not give it to the Korean gymnast himself, but turn it back in because it would end the controversy and make him the sweetheart of the Olympics. Dh's view is that so many other countries already have negative image of USA and that if he keeps it, every interview from now til 10 yrs from now will still be about whether he really 'earned' the gold. Dh said he thinks Hamm's reputation would be far improved and he would probably get better commercial endorsements, etc.

What do you guys think about that?

Honestly? If he did this, I wouldn't be surprised if the OIC gave him back the medal immediately. It could very easily be viewed as "showing up" the OIC and contradicting their decisions up to this point.

 

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

It would be ridiculous for him to give the medal back. You can whine and moan all you want but the bottom line is that according to the rules, he won. The score is what matters, and he had a better score. Unless the mistake was severely grotesque and rated a poor performance as Gold-worthy, I have no problem. There is a margin of error. This is not USA vs. USSR basketball. Hamm won. Get over it. I don't want him to return it, to me that would make him less of a man. He would only do it to back down to the rest of the world. I admire his "stubbornness" towards the rest of the world, he worked his whole life and played the game fair and square and could give a damn what those hooligans in Greece say.

 

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

I guess everyone agrees with me for once!

 

[snoopy]

LOL Joe, I was just thinking that same thing!