Here now, and here is the problem

[OtherScott]

I can't say what exactly their full intent is, I can only surmise. But I do know that the magic bands have an antenna in them that tracks exactly what a person does at any given time. They know if you walk counter clockwise or clockwise, what attractions you go to see first, if your charge card is linked to it they know how much you spend and on what. They can even tell how often you use the washroom and how long it takes. The KTTW did not have an antenna. It had what is called passive RFID and so it was only good for a limited amount of info. Now the technology is able to collect more data. Big Brother is watching.

I've been saying ^this^ since Day 1.

Everything Disney wanted to accomplish with FP+ could have been accomplished with internet booking, KTTW cards and exisiting FP terminals to deliver printed pre-booked FPs...except tracking.

 

[AmyB2006]

I can't say what exactly their full intent is, I can only surmise. But I do know that the magic bands have an antenna in them that tracks exactly what a person does at any given time. They know if you walk counter clockwise or clockwise, what attractions you go to see first, if your charge card is linked to it they know how much you spend and on what. They can even tell how often you use the washroom and how long it takes. The KTTW did not have an antenna. It had what is called passive RFID and so it was only good for a limited amount of info. Now the technology is able to collect more data. Big Brother is watching.

This has been brought up before. And while yes, I see how they have more "watching" ability, I just don't think it's their main intent.

I don't know what passive RFID is and I don't know how it differs from an RFID MB.

 

[Robo]

This has been brought up before. And while yes, I see how they have more "watching" ability, I just don't think it's their main intent.

I don't know what passive RFID is and I don't know how it differs from an RFID MB.

It doesn't differ from an RFID MB.

It IS the technology used in the RFID MB.
But, there are TWO different RFID "systems" in the MB.
"Active," which uses an internal (3 year life) battery, and "passive" (no internal power source required.)

There is only the passive RFID chip in the flat plastic ticket.

 

[OtherScott]

This has been brought up before. And while yes, I see how they have more "watching" ability, I just don't think it's their main intent.

I don't know what passive RFID is and I don't know how it differs from an RFID MB.

What is the main intent, in your opinion? The MBs cost Disney more and aside from tracking, perform exact same function as a mag-strip card. RFID in mag-strip cards was used enter gates only. RFID was not used to get FPs (mag-strip was physically read by kiosk).

Disney is taking a familiar medium (pseudo-credit card) and changing to a wearable item.

Imagine the data collected from people's movements. The possibilities are near endless.

 

[Colleen27]

Is it necessary to continually imply that those who rode something more than once were breaking the rules or somehow unfairly gaming the fp- system?

There is no "working the system" involved when someone arrives at said ride, grabs a fp, rides standby, uses their fp, then grabs another when the window opens.

That implication always pops up in threads that criticize Disney policies... It is a sub-set of the "Disney can do no wrong" mindset that says when Disney makes a change that negatively impacts guest experience it must be because of some group of cheating, manipulative guests ruining it for everyone. I don't think the poster you quoted meant it that way, but it comes up so often on these hot-topic threads that it has become very loaded phrasing in the DIS world.

I got those numbers from another source and used them because they seemed reasonable. If they're a little off, I stand corrected.

But, the bigger unknown is what percentage of people are willing and able to plan their vacations that much in advance by marking their calendars for the 60 day mark and snatching FPs immediately. I obviously think that percentage is a lot lower than you do.

The other thing I think you have to recognize is that spending money on MM+ and spending money on new attractions are not mutually exclusive issues. I'm sure you have seen the reports about plans for new lands and attractions at WDW parks.

I think 60 days is a short enough window, especially with in-the-know guests having set their park days months earlier, that Disney could realistically expect a very high participation rate. Particularly if they're aggressive about marketing FP+, which from the recent flash drive mailings it appears they intend to be.

I seriously doubt it cost 100 million to build soarin

IIRC, and I might not because I'm digging into some seriously dusty corners of the stupid-trivia corners of my brain, that figure included R&D so it was probably the development cost for the original Soarin' over California at DLR rather than the construction of Epcot's copy of the attraction.

I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

Let's face it. US is far more appealing to teens. But Disney at least had a decent number of headliner attractions that still hold some strong appeal to the teenage set. But to keep them happy, they have to be able to ride those things over and over. A family with a teenager often has younger kids too, and they can talk the older kids into doing Disney with the appeal of those headliner attractions. With FP+, especially now with tiering, that is going to be a much tougher, if not impossible, sale to make.

Will it cost Disney that entire family? It remains to be seen.

What trips us up is the fact that we have both.

FP+ would work fine for my teens - we use rope drop and late nights to ride over and over again without any FP, so we'd use it for the few attractions where the lines don't let up. My DD rode Everest 10 times in the last hour of the night at AK on our last trip without a single FP.

It would also work when traveling with my youngest, because she's only interested in the non-thrilling headliners and is still too small for some rides anyway. So we'll use FP+ for Peter Pan, Jungle Cruise, and Toy Story and skip the thrill rides. Even tiers aren't a problem with her - I expect she'll ride Soarin' but balk at Test Track, and she's too small for Rock N Roller Coaster so the Studios tier-one is a no-brainer.

The problem comes in when we're all traveling together. At that point 3 just isn't enough - the youngest isn't going to wait patiently while the older kids ride RnR standby, the olders aren't going to cheerfully spend an hour in line for Peter Pan because we used our FP+ slots for the mountains, etc. So the choice is spending a large chunk of our family vacation split up with different FP+ plans to accommodate the kids vs spending unpleasant amounts of time together in standby queues. Neither is a good option, IMO.

 

[Silock]

we were more interested in experiencing the ambiance of the parks, rather than commando style touring running from attraction to FP kiosk to attraction to fp kiosk, etc etc.

One thing we KNEW we needed fastpass for, which we were UNABLE to ride was TSMM. FP were gone by 10AM. We did not get one, and could not stomach the idea of waiting 2 hours+ in line for a 5 minute attraction.

Thing is, it's easy to get a FP for that ride if you're there early. You just didn't want to get up early enough to do so. And I'm not at all BLAMING you for that or putting you down in any way for that attitude. I'm simply saying it's not impossible if you really want to do it. But you are one of those guests for whom it isn't all about rides. I think you're in the minority.

I Really appreciate that Disney seems to be leveling the playing field.

They aren't leveling the playing field. They're actively tilting it toward the excessive planners.

It's wonderful to think that "Oh, won't it be GREAT when we can have our evening FP+ reservation and just hang out all day?" Except that when EVERYONE ELSE has that same mentality, you're not going to be able to GET those late-day FP+ reservations, and you'll have to get up for rope drop ANYWAY if you want to experience the attraction. The probability is VERY high that absolutely nothing about the new system is going to change your experience.

I mean, let's compare the systems:

FP-:

If you don't rope drop, you have a high likelihood of not being able to get a TSMM FP at a convenient time during high crowd times. So, you will either have to wait in standby or go during Fantasmic late at night.

FP+:

If all of the evening reservations for FP+ are taken, you'll either have to take an early FP+ reservation and still get up early, or you may not be able to get a FP+ reservation AT ALL during high crowd times. So, you will either have to wait in standby or go during Fantasmic late at night.

How is this system any better?

 

[rebbyparker]

This has been brought up before. And while yes, I see how they have more "watching" ability, I just don't think it's their main intent.

I don't know what passive RFID is and I don't know how it differs from an RFID MB.

Someone else posted this a while ago. With an MB on your wrist, you go into a park store. The MB can track whether you purchase anything. Five minutes after you leave, a 10% off coupon pops up for that store. Voila, they just used the tracking info and made a sale. Or they notice you stop at Coral Reef to check on available tables, wait is an hour. You walk away and 45 minutes later a message pops up that a table is available. Voila, they tracked your movements and made money. I can see MB's being a revenue generator for Disney and have no problems with that. Heck, I would totally take advantage. It's the crowd control portion (FP+) that I'm not so fond of.

 

[OtherScott]

The problem with the new system is that it is 1) new, 2) working alongside an old system, 3) applied unequally amongst park guests.

 

[pampam]

It's a little more than changing it to a wearable item. The antenna in the magic band can transmit info to the rooftops etc. where it is collected to find out what people are doing. This is why it needs a battery. The passive RFID chip in the KTTW cards could only transmit to the scanner at the entrance or cash register when it was held up to the scanner, or very close to the scanner. It is the difference between inches and quite a few feet. That is how it can track where a person is at a certain time, or what they are doing.

 

[Silock]

The capacity for a ride is what it is. All I'm saying is that if fewer people ride an attraction multiple times in one day, more people will be able to ride it at least once. I don't think you can disagree with that.

Mathematically, you're right. However, when you think about the long-term implications, it's just not that simple. If people decide not to come back because they can't ride something more than once, that will impact the bottom line, which is what Disney really cares about. If you restrict supply, of course demand goes up, but there is a tipping point where demand exceeds consumers' willingness to pay. This "either-or" Tier 1 business is that tipping point.

When that is done, we may see a way of handling same day rides that is different than the traditional, physical standing in line for an hour or longer.

I doubt it. Why would they have invested in the interactive queues if their plan was to bypass them all along?

 

[Shaden]

I think you're underestimating attendance - daily average is over 30K/day at Epcot - and overestimating ride capacity - Soarin' can get through around 15K guests in a 12 hour park day. So if half of the ride capacity is made available through the FP+ system it only takes 25% of eligible guests choosing that ride at/near the 60 day mark to account for each and every FP. I think that's a very realistic figure, even with tiers, because Soarin' is the tamer, more family-friendly of the two rides and therefore more attractive to many people (myself included - I'm not sure my 5yo will try Test Track at all, but I'm sure she'll love Soarin'). And that's average attendance, not the peak times when Epcot sees 50K+ guests in a day.

What Disney has is an unaddressed capacity issue... Soarin' reportedly cost around 100mil to build, TSMM 80mil. Maybe they should have thrown some of the BILLION bucks they spent on this crowd management mess at increasing capacity at the two major bottleneck attractions... It certainly would be better, from a guest satisfaction standpoint, than being pushed towards second-tier attractions by a combination of limited FP access to the best rides and manufactured demand for the lesser attractions.

Colleen you are BANG ON on this. What I think is even more disturbing is that, the cost to "double" or increase capacity on existing attractions would be significantly less. You don't have the design or setup process involved, a significant savings, and you probably have a more limited testing phase, also, a significant savings. So while Soarin cost $100, to double Soarin it might have only cost $50 million. While I certainly want MORE attractions, new rides, the comparison made to Universal earlier makes WDW laughable (though there are other non-tangibles offered), it would at least solve SOME of the issue to increase capacity on the headliner rides. This would have been far more cost effective than FP+.

 

[jade1]

I've been saying ^this^ since Day 1.

Join date Nov 2013.

 

[Colleen27]

What is the main intent, in your opinion? The MBs cost Disney more and aside from tracking, perform exact same function as a mag-strip card. RFID in mag-strip cards was used enter gates only. RFID was not used to get FPs (mag-strip was physically read by kiosk).

Disney is taking a familiar medium (pseudo-credit card) and changing to a wearable item.

Imagine the data collected from people's movements. The possibilities are near endless.

I think there's a lot of confusion about what the main intent is. The bands themselves sounded like a cool idea at the outset, and I still see a lot of potential. Giving face character's "friends" readers so the characters could greet a little princess by name, for example, sounded like a great use of the technology. Interactive ride elements did as well, though I would hope they work on the tech there because the ride-design element at Test Track lags horribly and you rarely get to see your own car's stats. Tap-to-pay is a proven method of undermining people's impulse-buy restraint, so that had obvious profit potential for Disney, as does the sale of accessories for the bands (though that too could have been better implemented - I've read many warnings against buying the band charms because they fall off so easily). And all of these things, along with the RFID room key/ticket access, provide strong incentives for guests to accept/embrace the bands, which allows the data collection Disney is banking on.

The big mess of the system centers around what they're doing with FP. In many ways, FP+ seems to run counter to established strategies. It will force many if not most guests into spending more time in queues where they cannot be spending money - the exact issue FP was created to solve - and replaces a relatively low-cost system with expensive infrastructure that will need regular maintenance and replacement. The only way any of what they're doing to the FP makes any sense is if there are in fact plans to monetize it in the near future. In that context, this is all perfect - make FP almost useless to the average guest, inflate standby queues even at rides that have never needed FP (ie POTC and Small World), and then with great fanfare announce a solution to those manufactured problems... for a price.

 

[OtherScott]

It's a little more than changing it to a wearable item. The antenna in the magic band can transmit info to the rooftops etc. where it is collected to find out what people are doing. This is why it needs a battery. The passive RFID chip in the KTTW cards could only transmit to the scanner at the entrance or cash register when it was held up to the scanner, or very close to the scanner. It is the difference between inches and quite a few feet. That is how it can track where a person is at a certain time, or what they are doing.

Yes, I know. I've posted that exact point myself.

My point to the PP was that by taking a familiar item (RFID enabled mag-strip card) and changing it to an unfamilar item (wearable RFID enabled bracelet) suggests that the physical nature of the latter is of major significance (tracking).

I have said from Day 1 that this is about tracking and all of the benefits it gives Disney and you (pre-visit, day off, post-visit). 6:00pm and you haven't had dinner yet? "You've got mail!"

 

[RedHeadedFairy]

I know this is quite a few pages back in the discussion, but I wanted to bring up a different point.

I've had several different people ask me about a disney vacation in the last month, as they know I was a frequent visitor. I've explained all the new FP+, MB and ADR's.

A lot of people look at me like this ~ and say "well, that doesn't sound fun at all. Never mind, we'll go somewhere we can have fun, don't have to plan every second and don't need to worry about what we're going to ride 60 days ahead. That's crazy!"

Yes, yes it is crazy.

So Disney, just FYI, you're turning away and discouraging many first-time visitors.

A very good friend of mine has 2 days of unused park hoppers & wanted to go sometime this fall, using both days & adding either MNSSHP or MVMCP. Knowing we've been on no less than 6-8 trips to WDW in the last year she asked for my help in planning. I was very hesitant & told her so - with the FP+ rules changing weekly & the uncertainty of how it would be during their actual trip dates, I was afraid to give what would end up being bad advice.

So I explained the way things were changing, encouraged her to sit down & really prioritize what they wanted to accomplish, told her to read up on the changes & that we could talk about it again after she had formed her own opinions.

The next time we spoke about it she looked like this and said forget it - it was all too much work & pre-planning for them. She found it terribly intimidating & stressful to try & guess what their low-level ADHD DD6 would be most interested in on some random day in the future. They had decided to skip Disney completely, forgoing the tickets they already had and doing Seaworld and Legoland instead. So Disney lost their hotel, dining, party tickets & souvenier budget.

 

[OtherScott]

Join date Nov 2013.

"My" Day 1...check my history.

That is still inaccurate as I lurked here 3 years ago under a name that had "scott" in it but couldn't remember whole thing

 

[FlipHipster]

I think there's a lot of confusion about what the main intent is.

Right from the mouse's mouth:

“We have known for a really long time that getting our visitors to Walt Disney World to make decisions about where they spend their time before they leave home is a powerful driver of visits per guest. When they get into the Orlando market and their time isn’t yet planned, they can be subject to everything you see down there, which is a lot of in-city marketing for all the many products that people have put there to basically bleed off the feed that we fundamentally motivate. So if we can get people to plan their vacation before they leave home, we know that we get more time with them. We get a bigger share of their wallet. So that’s one thing for you guys to think about.
And the second thing is, what happens to purchases when they become much more convenient and you don’t spend time queuing up for a transaction, queuing up to get in the park and you actually have more time to enjoy the entertainment and subsequently spend more money doing things other than standing in line which, of course, you can’t spend any money while you’re doing that”.​ - Disney CFO Jay Rasulo, on the 2013 2nd Quarter Earnings Call
​

Stolen from http://micechat.com/47066-leveraging-next-gen/

Personally I think he's off base, I'm a planner, OCD even, but MM+ isn't going to keep me from going to US. I will just plan a day or 2 for it. In fact, if I know ahead of time that FP for all the headliners are gone 30 days in advance, I am more likely to go offsite and do something else.

 

[Shaden]

But how much peril is that, really, to Disney?

A weeklong guest pays about $60 per ticket-day. I'm an AP holder living over 1000 miles from WDW and I'm paying less than $40 per ticket-day. A local with an AP pays even less.

A once-in-a-lifetime (or once-in-many-years) spends on souvenirs from their magical vacation. I didn't buy a single piece of merchandise on my last trip and only a pin on the one before. My friend who lives in Orlando might buy a couple things each year, though she likes to shop Character Outlet rather than paying retail in the parks.

A vacationer eats every meal on property (assuming an on-site stay) because it is convenient. I venture off property only very occasionally so I'm more "tourist" in that respect, but I have a TiW so Disney's still getting less for the table I'm taking up than for the table taken up by that first-timer. And locals and DVC owners are even less profitable - they go off-site for cheaper/better food, eat at home, or cook in their villas.

And finally, that once-in-a-lifetime traveler might pay rack rate, or might take advantage of whatever discount Disney is promoting for their stay. I get an AP rate that is usually cheaper than anything offered to the general public, the DVC owner pre-paid for accommodations at a greatly discounted rate, and the local goes home to sleep.

Meanwhile, those less-profitable groups - annual passholders, DVC members, and locals - know the classic FP system inside and out and know which rides are must-dos (and repeaters) and which can be skipped. That's allowed us to have the best possible park experience, often at the expense of less prepared visitors from that lucrative once-in-a-lifetime group who get stuck in the standby lines.

I would argue that from a business standpoint it makes a great deal of sense to alienate some of us loyal, frequent guests in order to fill a bigger percentage of their rooms and park capacity with more profitable, more free-spending once-in-a-lifetime types.

Good, post, but I think you are missing a huge portion of the analysis.

Yes you point out the differences between first timers/once in a life timers, AP holders, yearly visitors, and well, locals. Yes, Disney makes more money off those first timers and once in a life timers, certainly more so than locals or frequent visitors.

There is just one thing: why offer discounts ?

While I totally get your point, the offering of discounts to me, indicates that they still NEED us frequent goers. If they didn't they would just put out general public offers and try to base their attendance (and profits) off those first timers and once in a life timers. They don't have to offer AP rates, or PINs to returning guests, or bouncebacks, etc. Except, clearly they do. We make up a considerable portion (I wish we had numbers on this) of their revenue.

If most first timers/once in a life timers wouldn't know the difference between FP and FP+, there is no reason to change it to accommodate them. However if the changes threaten their repeat guests, who they clearly need, otherwise would not offer considerable discounts to .... these changes may have a considerable negative impact on their bottom line.

 

[OtherScott]

I think there's a lot of confusion about what the main intent is. The bands themselves sounded like a cool idea at the outset, and I still see a lot of potential. Giving face character's "friends" readers so the characters could greet a little princess by name, for example, sounded like a great use of the technology. Interactive ride elements did as well, though I would hope they work on the tech there because the ride-design element at Test Track lags horribly and you rarely get to see your own car's stats. Tap-to-pay is a proven method of undermining people's impulse-buy restraint, so that had obvious profit potential for Disney, as does the sale of accessories for the bands (though that too could have been better implemented - I've read many warnings against buying the band charms because they fall off so easily). And all of these things, along with the RFID room key/ticket access, provide strong incentives for guests to accept/embrace the bands, which allows the data collection Disney is banking on.

The big mess of the system centers around what they're doing with FP. In many ways, FP+ seems to run counter to established strategies. It will force many if not most guests into spending more time in queues where they cannot be spending money - the exact issue FP was created to solve - and replaces a relatively low-cost system with expensive infrastructure that will need regular maintenance and replacement. The only way any of what they're doing to the FP makes any sense is if there are in fact plans to monetize it in the near future. In that context, this is all perfect - make FP almost useless to the average guest, inflate standby queues even at rides that have never needed FP (ie POTC and Small World), and then with great fanfare announce a solution to those manufactured problems... for a price.

I dont beleive FP+ now is what it will be when fully implemented and consistently available. You still have a significant amount of noise in the system with legacy FP and everyone's workarounds. You also have a certain amount of uncertainty and anxiety occurring, some rational, some not.

I believe it will come to be used by most guests much the same as legacy FP system was used and that the 3 ride limit will be slowly expanded as anxiety subsides.

If capacity was the problem that needed to be addressed, it could have been done so more quickly, efficiently and cheaply.

I dont mean to say that Disney only has one goal, just that I think the main driver is the MBs are for tracking and eventual enhanced interactive rider experience.

2 cents

 

[jade1]

"My" Day 1...check my history.

That is still inaccurate as I lurked here 3 years ago under a name that had "scott" in it but couldn't remember whole thing

Oh sorry-I used find other posts-they start Nov 7 2013-I don't see a history search but would like to find that, where is that?