Here now, and here is the problem

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wisblue said:
I think it should be obvious that the fact that Epcot and DHS have so few major attractions is the very reason why tiering of FPs is probably necessary at those parks if Disney wants to allow as many guests as possible to experience the most popular attractions at least once on their whole trip, not just once per day.

Under the FP- system some guests arrived at a park early and worked the system to ride each of the major attractions 2 or 3 or more times each. If their trips lasted for a week or longer, and they did this at one park every day, they could ride one attraction 5 or 6 times or more on their trip. Local AP holders could do this multiple times in a year. Those multiple riders are the people who are most upset by FP+. Disney is essentially forcing them to surrender some of their multiple rides with FPs to allow other guests to enjoy those attractions at least once.

Is it necessary to continually imply that those who rode something more than once were breaking the rules or somehow unfairly gaming the fp- system?

There is no "working the system" involved when someone arrives at said ride, grabs a fp, rides standby, uses their fp, then grabs another when the window opens.
 
I think the big difference is the number of people who can eat dinner in one night at a popular restaurant (like BOG) compared to the capacity of a popular ride.

If Soarin has a capacity of 20,000 riders a day, Disney allocates 50% of the capacity to FP+, and 25,000 people visit Epcot in a day, 40 % of all people who visit Epcot that day will have to make their reservations 60 days out to buy up the whole supply. No matter how much. Disney markets it, I don't see that many people acting that early. Some people don't even plan their whole trip that far in advance. And, if there are tiers, even the people who do choose that early will be divided to some extent between Soarin and Test Track, and some people won't care to do either.

I think you're underestimating attendance - daily average is over 30K/day at Epcot - and overestimating ride capacity - Soarin' can get through around 15K guests in a 12 hour park day. So if half of the ride capacity is made available through the FP+ system it only takes 25% of eligible guests choosing that ride at/near the 60 day mark to account for each and every FP. I think that's a very realistic figure, even with tiers, because Soarin' is the tamer, more family-friendly of the two rides and therefore more attractive to many people (myself included - I'm not sure my 5yo will try Test Track at all, but I'm sure she'll love Soarin'). And that's average attendance, not the peak times when Epcot sees 50K+ guests in a day.

What Disney has is an unaddressed capacity issue... Soarin' reportedly cost around 100mil to build, TSMM 80mil. Maybe they should have thrown some of the BILLION bucks they spent on this crowd management mess at increasing capacity at the two major bottleneck attractions... It certainly would be better, from a guest satisfaction standpoint, than being pushed towards second-tier attractions by a combination of limited FP access to the best rides and manufactured demand for the lesser attractions.
 
Is it necessary to continually imply that those who rode something more than once were breaking the rules or somehow unfairly gaming the fp- system?

There is no "working the system" involved when someone arrives at said ride, grabs a fp, rides standby, uses their fp, then grabs another when the window opens.

And, if the MAIN INTENT of $Billion FP+ is to limit the number of times a guest can ride X attraction, that end could have been enacted any time in the past decade for an investment of about $625... with a line or two of computer language that told the FP machines to only issue one FP per day, per attraction, per ticket.
 
Is it necessary to continually imply that those who rode something more than once were breaking the rules or somehow unfairly gaming the fp- system?

There is no "working the system" involved when someone arrives at said ride, grabs a fp, rides standby, uses their fp, then grabs another when the window opens.

If you are reading that implication into my statement, you are reading way too much into it. I never said or meant that there is anything wrong with using the rules as they are in place to fit your touring style.
 

That ignores one of THE most primary of all desires of visiting amusement and theme parks...
to ride your favorites, over and over.

It is as basic as popcorn and balloons.

That desire is especially high at Disney parks and has been a mainstay practice
of guests since 1955.
Agreed. And in order to do that from now on you are going to have to travel in the off season, period. As we did last month and rode over and over till the cows came home with out using a single FP-…we used EMH til 1am and we waited in non existent standby lines.
Its 2013 and there are 7 billion people in the world and 18 hotels in WDW, and Baytowers, and Four Seasons, And Golden Oaks etc etc etc…life is about change. And the good ole days are gone everywhere in planet earth. In thailand 20 years ago you could find a million beaches with no one on them for 5 bucks, in mexico Cancun was a fishing village, I live in jamaica on the south coast and 25 years ago there were no telephones, cars or houses..now its like anywhere else. Can you even imagine WDW 30 years from now?
 
And, if the MAIN INTENT of $Billion FP+ is to limit the number of times a guest can ride X attraction, that end could have been enacted any time in the past decade for an investment of about $625... with a line or two of computer language that told the FP machines to only issue one FP per day, per attraction, per ticket.

What do you think their main intent is? Keep people in line longer? Keep people in limbo between FP+ attractions so that they hit a shop and spend money? If it isn't to spread out the FPs, then what is it? (honestly asking here)

They could have also just used the current FP system and adapted the machines with the mickey head reader and we could have gotten FPs with our magic bands the same as now.
 
I think you are overestimating how many people who visit WDW, especially those that are visiting for the first time, feel that way. There are a lot of people who are perfectly satisfied experiencing as many things as possible once, without repeating anything.

If you really believe that riding certain things over and over is the main objective of most people who visit WDW, maybe you should take a step back and realize why your opinions, which are perfectly legitimate, may represent a very small minority of all guests.

The other mainstay since 1955 has been that if you want to ride your favorite attraction over and over you have to get off the ride and get back in line with everyone else. You can still do that. It sounds like you should be advocating the elimination of FPs completely.

To say that riding a great attraction once is the primary goal of humankind is ignore the phase, "Do it again, Daddy! Do it again!"
And, by extension, "Can we do it again, Mommy? Can we?"
 
/
If you are reading that implication into my statement, you are reading way too much into it. I never said or meant that there is anything wrong with using the rules as they are in place to fit your touring style.

I didn't take it in that context either. I think anytime someone knows how to use a system, any system, to their advantage, "working" it is an accurate description. I don't think it's implying that any rules are being broken. You're just working it to your advantage.

Just like at my job, I know how to "work" the schedule and the rules of it to my advantage. But I stay within the rules and just them to my advantage. If someone said that I was "working the schedule" I wouldn't be offended. They have the same opportunity as I do. Just like with FP. Everyone has the same opportunity to use that system equally.
 
If Soarin has a capacity of 20,000 riders a day, Disney allocates 50% of the capacity to FP+, and 25,000 people visit Epcot in a day, 40 % of all people who visit Epcot that day will have to make their reservations 60 days out to buy up the whole supply. No matter how much. Disney markets it, I don't see that many people acting that early. Some people don't even plan their whole trip that far in advance. And, if there are tiers, even the people who do choose that early will be divided to some extent between Soarin and Test Track, and some people won't care to do either.

You're forgetting the the audience competing for those FP's just grew exponentially. You aren't just competing with guests at Epcot for the Soaring FP now. You are competing with guests at all the parks, at DTD, in their hotels etc. What happens will all the local AP holders start hoarding FP's because maybe I will go to Epcot tomorrow, maybe I won't? Better grab a FP just in case...... It might be awesome now when not as many people are doing it or even aware they can, but what happens when everyone is now trying to book that Soaring FP 30 days out? Like you mentioned, Disney can only push so many people through any ride on any given day. FP doesn't solve a capacity issue. It might help with the queuing and the user experience but you just can't say, allocate 4,000 more FP's without affecting the SB line.

FWIW, I am not complaining just calling it like I see it. I don't claim to be smarter than Disney when it comes to theme park planning, but I can't see how FP doesn't become more exclusive especially during peak periods. If you listen to what Rasulo says, he thinks making guests plan every aspect of their stay months in advance will keep guests from going offsite to Universal or Sea World. So clearly at least he expects guests to book their entire trip in advance. Personally I think he's wrong but that's just because I don't want to do it. Maybe the other 14,999,999 people that go there every year love to do that :confused3
 
To say that riding a great attraction once is the primary goal of humankind is ignore the phase, "Do it again, Daddy! Do it again!"
And, by extension, "Can we do it again, Mommy? Can we?"

So, by extension, are you saying that all of the people who are whining because they can't ride a popular attraction multiple times on every day of their 20th trip to WDW are acting like 6 year olds?
 
I don't think so, Tim.


Al_Borland-248x300.gif
 
Disney is essentially forcing them to surrender some of their multiple rides with FPs to allow other guests to enjoy those attractions at least once.

Except they aren't. What happens when they run out of FP+? That guest is screwed.

If that same guest was the type that was unwilling to put in effort to grab a paper FP-, what makes you think they'll want to stand in even longer SB lines to ride the headliners?

They'll either run out of energy or run out of time.
 
I think you're underestimating attendance - daily average is over 30K/day at Epcot - and overestimating ride capacity - Soarin' can get through around 15K guests in a 12 hour park day. So if half of the ride capacity is made available through the FP+ system it only takes 25% of eligible guests choosing that ride at/near the 60 day mark to account for each and every FP. I think that's a very realistic figure, even with tiers, because Soarin' is the tamer, more family-friendly of the two rides and therefore more attractive to many people (myself included - I'm not sure my 5yo will try Test Track at all, but I'm sure she'll love Soarin'). And that's average attendance, not the peak times when Epcot sees 50K+ guests in a day.

What Disney has is an unaddressed capacity issue... Soarin' reportedly cost around 100mil to build, TSMM 80mil. Maybe they should have thrown some of the BILLION bucks they spent on this crowd management mess at increasing capacity at the two major bottleneck attractions... It certainly would be better, from a guest satisfaction standpoint, than being pushed towards second-tier attractions by a combination of limited FP access to the best rides and manufactured demand for the lesser attractions.

I got those numbers from another source and used them because they seemed reasonable. If they're a little off, I stand corrected.

But, the bigger unknown is what percentage of people are willing and able to plan their vacations that much in advance by marking their calendars for the 60 day mark and snatching FPs immediately. I obviously think that percentage is a lot lower than you do.

The other thing I think you have to recognize is that spending money on MM+ and spending money on new attractions are not mutually exclusive issues. I'm sure you have seen the reports about plans for new lands and attractions at WDW parks.
 
So, by extension, are you saying that all of the people who are whining because they can't ride a popular attraction multiple times on every day of their 20th trip to WDW are acting like 6 year olds?

Isn't the point of WDW to make us all feel like six year olds?
 
I've heard this before of people telling their friends and the friends say it's too overwhelming. It makes me wonder what it's like to go for the first time with NO info from friends. Especially people who don't research.

Most parks I've been too (Hersey, Kings Dominion, etc.) don't label wait times. So even when you go and wait long you don't time it so it can feel shorter. But seeing a 30, 40 plus wait over a ride as a newbie has to seem outrageous. Even for those short times.

Than to learn FP- or FP+ (especially) has to be confusing. I can see a lot of people booking FP+ and never using them.

I wonder how many walk into TS venues and ask how long the wait is.

Bottom line it's a lot of information to take in and I am just glad I have gone since I was a toddler.

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I know this is quite a few pages back in the discussion, but I wanted to bring up a different point.

I've had several different people ask me about a disney vacation in the last month, as they know I was a frequent visitor. I've explained all the new FP+, MB and ADR's.

A lot of people look at me like this ~ :crazy2: and say "well, that doesn't sound fun at all. Never mind, we'll go somewhere we can have fun, don't have to plan every second and don't need to worry about what we're going to ride 60 days ahead. That's crazy!"

Yes, yes it is crazy.

So Disney, just FYI, you're turning away and discouraging many first-time visitors.
 
I got those numbers from another source and used them because they seemed reasonable. If they're a little off, I stand corrected.

But, the bigger unknown is what percentage of people are willing and able to plan their vacations that much in advance by marking their calendars for the 60 day mark and snatching FPs immediately. I obviously think that percentage is a lot lower than you do.

The other thing I think you have to recognize is that spending money on MM+ and spending money on new attractions are not mutually exclusive issues. I'm sure you have seen the reports about plans for new lands and attractions at WDW parks.
I seriously doubt it cost 100 million to build soarin
 
I wonder how Universal handled the capacity issue with their unlimited package. There is a chance that Disney is looking to model something similar to that in the future.

I'm confused by all the discussion (from this post forward) about how Universal handled capacity. Unlike WDW...Universal doesn't have a FP-type-system for all guests. Universal has an express pass available only to some guests, and they are able to limit the number they supply by combining hotel capacity with the number of passes they have available for sale each day (a number which changes based on expected crowd number for the day).

A system that is set up to handle a maximum number of guests each day isn't comparable to a system that is supposed to handle every single guest at the parks each day.
 
But how much peril is that, really, to Disney?

A weeklong guest pays about $60 per ticket-day. I'm an AP holder living over 1000 miles from WDW and I'm paying less than $40 per ticket-day. A local with an AP pays even less.

A once-in-a-lifetime (or once-in-many-years) spends on souvenirs from their magical vacation. I didn't buy a single piece of merchandise on my last trip and only a pin on the one before. My friend who lives in Orlando might buy a couple things each year, though she likes to shop Character Outlet rather than paying retail in the parks.

A vacationer eats every meal on property (assuming an on-site stay) because it is convenient. I venture off property only very occasionally so I'm more "tourist" in that respect, but I have a TiW so Disney's still getting less for the table I'm taking up than for the table taken up by that first-timer. And locals and DVC owners are even less profitable - they go off-site for cheaper/better food, eat at home, or cook in their villas.

And finally, that once-in-a-lifetime traveler might pay rack rate, or might take advantage of whatever discount Disney is promoting for their stay. I get an AP rate that is usually cheaper than anything offered to the general public, the DVC owner pre-paid for accommodations at a greatly discounted rate, and the local goes home to sleep.

Meanwhile, those less-profitable groups - annual passholders, DVC members, and locals - know the classic FP system inside and out and know which rides are must-dos (and repeaters) and which can be skipped. That's allowed us to have the best possible park experience, often at the expense of less prepared visitors from that lucrative once-in-a-lifetime group who get stuck in the standby lines.

I would argue that from a business standpoint it makes a great deal of sense to alienate some of us loyal, frequent guests in order to fill a bigger percentage of their rooms and park capacity with more profitable, more free-spending once-in-a-lifetime types.

This person. She get's it.

For myself, and my wife we have our second upcoming trip. Last year I think we used FP once in 7 park days. And this was NOT because we "didn't know it's available", but because we were more interested in experiencing the ambiance of the parks, rather than commando style touring running from attraction to FP kiosk to attraction to fp kiosk, etc etc.

One thing we KNEW we needed fastpass for, which we were UNABLE to ride was TSMM. FP were gone by 10AM. We did not get one, and could not stomach the idea of waiting 2 hours+ in line for a 5 minute attraction.

I feel that the cumulative effect of no real restrictions on FP-, leading to it's "being used effectively" by commando park goers, actively worsens the experience of those who are not interested in commando style touring.

With the new system, I can schedule in advance, be in a general area of the park and enjoy being there on an approximate timeframe, ride my ride with minimal wait, then go ride Carousel of Progress. I can understand why this system, or more accurately REMOVAL of FP- would upset, or detract from the experience of those who feel that the value of their park experience is determined by how many rides they can hop on in a day, however, it works out well for me and the misses.

Hell, I can go to Typhoon Lagoon in the morning, bum around there until 3-4 o'clock, then head over to epcot and have a scheduled FASTPASS for SOARIN ready to be used when I walk in the gate. It's awesome!

I Really appreciate that Disney seems to be leveling the playing field.
 
I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

Let's face it. US is far more appealing to teens. But Disney at least had a decent number of headliner attractions that still hold some strong appeal to the teenage set. But to keep them happy, they have to be able to ride those things over and over. A family with a teenager often has younger kids too, and they can talk the older kids into doing Disney with the appeal of those headliner attractions. With FP+, especially now with tiering, that is going to be a much tougher, if not impossible, sale to make.

Will it cost Disney that entire family? It remains to be seen.
 
Except they aren't. What happens when they run out of FP+? That guest is screwed.

If that same guest was the type that was unwilling to put in effort to grab a paper FP-, what makes you think they'll want to stand in even longer SB lines to ride the headliners?

They'll either run out of energy or run out of time.

The capacity for a ride is what it is. All I'm saying is that if fewer people ride an attraction multiple times in one day, more people will be able to ride it at least once. I don't think you can disagree with that. And I think that is one of Disney's objectives with FP+.

The issue of whether the standby lines will be longer than they are now remains to be seen after this whole thing plays out. First they have to work through the issues of double dipping, which is in process now, and then deal with how to make FP+ available to offsite guests. Then they can eliminate FP- completely. When that is done, we may see a way of handling same day rides that is different than the traditional, physical standing in line for an hour or longer.
 
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