Help!!!! Need some 5th grade math input please!!

[goofy4tink]

Here's the background....just got back from our teacher conference this morning.
DD is in 5th grade. Her weak spot is math. She has always struggled with it. In 2nd grade we got her a tutor and it did help. She took the 4th grade MCAS last spring and placed in the high end of 'needs improvement'. But, when the math teacher gave them a math placement type test at the start of school this year, she came out at the bottom of her class. This was the first I had heard of this result. So.....

She is really struggling. She is having problems even learning the basic multiplication tables. SHe thinks she is stupid in math. No confidence what so ever. We are planning on a tutor for her again. While at the conf. today the math teacher tells me that over half of dd's math class is in what they call the Math Olympiad in school. These kids really excel in math. So, dd really feels like a dummy in class. The teacher did mention, in passing, a special math class for the kids struggling in math. It is a pull-out class where they would miss a different subject in order to have this special class. They work at a much slower pace and I think my dd would really benefit from it. But it seems that I am having to push the situation to get her into it. All of the other teachers were sitting there and when I asked if dd would have a problem missing a class here and there with each of them, they said no, that she would be fine. That she was doing B level work in everything else so getting the extra math help would be great. But the math teacher wants to wait until the term is over in two weeks. So, I'll see what happens then.

My question to all of you who may have had similar issues...Is there anything I can do to help my dd with this math problem? Have any of you found any tricks, so to speak, to make it easier for the kids to understand math? I'm at my wits end with this and really want to help dd but don't know how anymore. Heck, I don't even understand the math they are learning!!!!

Sorry this is so long. Hopefully popdaddy won't care about math issues and check in!!!!! Thanks for listening to a crazed mom!!!

 

[ckret01]

I sound exactly like your DD. When I was in fifth grade no exaggeration I had the same problem. I got the lowest grades in the class and I felt stupid while all of my friends got good grades. I just couldn't understand how to do the problems. The teacher and my parents decided to put me into a remedial math group that had only 6 of us. Now the way they did it in my school was while the other students had a quiet reading time off to the side of the room there was a table where we were taught math. I used to be so embarressed to do this. But when I tell you it helped...it was amazing. Not only did it give me the confidence to do my homework I was actually getting good grades. I wound up taking 4 math classes for each year of highschool then when I went to college I got the highest grade in my class. I couldn't believe it. And I know that taking those remedial math classes back when I was young really helped me to understand math at the pace I was comfortable with and led me to excel in math now.

 

[mickeyboat]

Not an expert here, but my best friend has a 5th grader struggling in math - because he hasn't mastered his math facts. Multiplication tables are the foundation upon which all other math is based afterwards. I think your DD should really focus on knowing those by heart. Hopefully then other math concepts will be easier to learn because she will not be struggling with the math facts.

I saw a multiplication song CD in Wal-Mart a few months ago and picked it up for my kids to use later. It puts the times tables to music and makes it more fun to learn.

Good luck to your DD.

Denae

 

[LMC]

My first ? is why would they pull her out of a different subject to go to math and then leave her in her math class that she is not doing well in? It seems like they could pull her from that math class to get the math assistance she needs and not miss any other core subjects.

I homeschool one of my kids (he has multiple LD issues) and we use Math U See. It is well know in the homeschool realm and is a hands-on approach. You teach it, they hear it, they use the manipulatives, they repeat it all back. It works wonderfully! We spent all last year (3rd grade) learning the foundations of multiplication. Did not even try to memorize the times tables yet. So he can work word problems since he can theorize how to get the result. Anyone can perform times tables from rote memory but alot of kids need a "bank" to go back to, to pull the information out when it gets to complex problems. we use color coded manipulatives and when I say 8 two times or 2x8 I can also say two choco-leights because we call the eight bar "choco-leight" he can then visualize two brown bars that equal 8 each.

First learn skip counting by 2, 5, 10. Then throw in 3,4,9,etc.
You can make your own manipulatives, check out the mathusee site or visit a teacher supply store. She may need to see it concretely to understand it.
Sorry this is so long, I should have pm'd you but I already typed it all out. Need any more info, feel free to pm me!

 

[Royalbear]

My pediatrician told me that in brain development when children are working in one area (ie talking), the other areas (ie walking) are delayed. Usually they balance out, but it certainly explained why one of my twins was walking at 11 months, but the other wasn't until 13 months. (however the 13month walker was doing some great fine motor skills).

Anyhow, how this relates to your DD: With proper guidance and help, she will get this math. The problem I see is her self-esteem issue with it. You are right in fearing her self negativism is likely to interfere with her future. I think tutoring will help her without interfering with her other studies. If you have her go to the other class I think several things can happen:

1. she will feed into the self-defeatist attitude (I am in the dummy math class, therefore I am a dummy).

2. Her math grades will improve, she will get better in math (anytime more focus is given, it causes improvement)

3. Her confidence will grow as she grasps the concept better.

4. Her other studies will suffer. If you think she can still keep up with the other classes (she is very strong in these areas), I think it's a good idea, but if you think it is too risky, try adding some extra time studying at home.

Good luck.

 

[Christine]

I think you should put her in the class. Math is a funny thing. I never "got" math and no one ever did anything for me and I have STRUGGLED with it all of my life. It sucks. And the more they have problems the more they develop a math anxiety. It is really a vicious cycle. As another poster said, kids generally develop a math problem because they have not mastered their math facts well. This mastery problem can be caused by a number of things. It is really frustrating to watch your kids work so hard and learning the math facts and they still don't get them. I found out from my child's doctor (neurologist) that this is due to a processing problem. My DD is pretty slow at math. When they were testing her for ADHD and other learning disabilities they found her IQ to be high-normal and no learning disabilities. But her "processing speed" for math is slow. This is why she has problems. Not that she will never master math, just that she will always need to learn it at a slower pace. You've seen those kids that can race through their multiplication tables? Well, some kids can't and this seriously impedes them.

I think the best thing you can do is to put her in this class and then maybe work on the math facts at home, although in 5th grade she is probably well beyond them.

 

[Barb D]

My 6th grade DD has similar problems. She's been pulled out of chorus two days a week for math tutoring. Frankly, even if she was being pulled out of - say - English, I'd still have her do the math tutoring. Math is so foundational at this age, and if they don't catch onto it now they'll have trouble later, too.

DD was upset about the math tutoring at first (especially since she loves chorus!) but we had a heart-to-heart talk about it, and she agreed do go into it with a good attitude. The tutoring has helped IMMENSELY - to the point where she could probably stop it now. She is CHOOSING to stay in it, because she can see how much it's benefiting her. (And I'm really proud of her for it!)

There is no shame in "not getting it." The only shame is in not being willing to try.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

If it were my child I wouldn't mind the placement in the special class because it certainly isn't going to hurt. But your statement that she is still struggling with Math Fact memorization is very telling. If it were my child, I would probably hold off on tutoring a bit and work on the Math Facts at home for a couple of months instead. I think that definately has to be your starting point. Many of the math programs used in school right now are very concept based and they don't drill the kids on the Math fact basics they way we were as kids. And many kids just don't memorize quickly or well and they need to put in alot of extra work on this.

I'm thinking of what my son has done so far in 5th Grade math this year and everything up through Pre-Algebra depends upon Math facts --

adding/subracting/multiplying/dividing fractions
adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing decimals
2 and 3 column Multiplication
Long Division
Volume and Perimeter
Solving for an unknown in a simple equation

 

[goofy4tink]

All valid points. The basic facts issue...yep, she really has to do them better. No argument. As far as the 'special class' goes...she wouldn't be in the regular math class anymore. It seems that this pull-out special math class doesn't meet at the time of her 'regular' math class so she would have to change her math class time. The school system does some funny stuff with class scheduling. But, she wouldn't be missing the other subject class more than once a week at the most. And that teacher has already told me that dd wouldn't be impacted by her absence.

So, it looks like we'll be working really hard on those nasty basic facts. It seems that our schools don't actually teach the mulitiplication tables anymore. It's all done by showing them why 3x4=12. So, dd sits there, trying to visulize the 'arrays' in her head and gets behind on the test.

Thanks for the thoughts. We'll keep at it. I'll send your encouraging words along to her!!! I know she will appreciate them.

 

[MerryPoppins]

Both my kids were slow to catch on when it came to math and they are very bright. In fact, DD is in the gifted program at her school. Math just never came easily to them until the last few years.

Does she understand the concepts? Does she understand *how* to multiply for example? Is it just the application of solving problems that has her stumped? Some kids just aren't developmentally ready for abstract math concepts at the same time other kids are. Maybe she's still very preoperational and has to *see* it. You might be interested in reading about Piaget's theory of developmental stages. You can read a little here: http://www.funderstanding.com/piaget.cfm

When I taught third grade I had a lot of kids who didn't get the concept of multiplication. So I got out my base ten kit with little cubes and sticks made of ten cubes and flats made of ten sticks, etc. We would work the problem in a concrete form instead of abstract form. In other words, I'd show them how to make 3 sets of 10 for 3 X 10. Then I'd have them trade each 10 cubes for a stick, and count up the total of 3 tens or 30. Once they have the concepts math gets easier. If you don't have a base ten set, you can use wooden sticks. Go get a box at Michaels and a bag of rubber bands. Each pile of 10 sticks can be traded for a bundle of 10, etc. Practice seems to be what it's all about. If she keeps seeing it, eventually she'll get it.

Now, it she understands the concept but can't remember the multiplication tables or has trouble with the mechanics of the problem, that is a different issue. Practice is the name of the game in that case! Flash cards are dull. Kids don't like them. DS's teacher wanted us to run flash cards with him, but he used to cry when he saw us getting them out because they made him feel like a failure. So we turned to his love of games. He still got frustrated, but he was doing something that was marginally fun. When it comes to practicing the multiplication tables, I suggest a game called Twist and Shout. Or even math computer games such as the appropriate level of Mighty Math by Learning Company. Or they make games like multiplication bingo that you can buy at most teacher's supply stores. It's not as fun as the others, but if your DD is into bingo it might work.

PM me if you have any questions. I think I'd try to figure out where the problem lies. If it's not understanding concepts, I'd put her in remedial math for some help or through a trained tutor. But I'd get to the bottom of it this year. It'll just get harder for her as she gets older and she needs to feel successful! That's a bad age for a kid to feel bad about herself. She needs to see that she may never like math, but she can master it.

 

[MerryPoppins]

I thought I'd mention that some of the games I spoke of can be found on ebay. For example Item number: 5929851831 is a lot of twist and shout games for $1 plus shipping.

 

[Buckalew11]

Work on those math facts and help build her esteem in math. Math phobia is real. I have it! LOL I got it in HS with Algebra classes and it hasn't left me yet!

My DD does well in math but it is her toughest subject. 2 years ago she hated math and I saw it all going down hill.
We started going to our local college basketball games where she met and developed a friendship with one of the players who was (God bless her soul!) a math major! When DD found out this girl liked math, she decided she did too! And the rest has been history. Part of her problem was the esteem in math. Girls seem to suffer from this more than boys.

Good luck. I hope the tutoring works and the math facts come quickly for her.

 

[LMC]

I still think the way to go is with math manipulatives. My special needs child was held back one year, struggles in everything BUT math. We are in 3rd grade subjects this year except math --4th grade. This is mind-boggling to me since he has visual perception, visual processing, and visual memory deficits!

I truly believe that if you get some type of manipulative (even popsicle sticks will work) then start back at square one you can teach her these facts in a matter of a couple of months. You will have to probably work on it almost every night and probably every weekend but once it "clicks" she should catch up!