Help! 3 yr old not seated w/us on plane!

[crashbb]

And that airline was breaking the law. It does not matter whether or not they charge for seat selection. The law states that if the passenger has paid for a berth and wishes to use a certified carseat in that berth for a child who fits in the carseat per mfr. recommendations, then the parent gets a pair of seats to accomodate the regulations re: emergency egress.

Sorry, should have mentioned it was a Canadian airline, so the US laws do not apply.

I understand why it is a rule, but it does piss me off that people can abuse it to get the airline to force other eople to move.

 

[ccgirl]

And that airline was breaking the law. It does not matter whether or not they charge for seat selection. The law states that if the passenger has paid for a berth and wishes to use a certified carseat in that berth for a child who fits in the carseat per mfr. recommendations, then the parent gets a pair of seats to accomodate the regulations re: emergency egress.

If the passenger who gets bumped out of his seat has paid to choose that seat, then the airline can choose to compensate that passenger in any manner that they wish, but but they CANNOT legally forcibly bump a paying child passenger just because that child's parent chooses to use a legal carseat on board.

From FAA Advisory circular 120-87A, referencing the US Code of Federal Regulations, sections as noted below (red emphasis is mine):

​

But, does it specify that the child/parent cannot be moved to a different flight that can accommodate such seating configuration?

 

[NotUrsula]

Sorry, should have mentioned it was a Canadian airline, so the US laws do not apply.

I understand why it is a rule, but it does piss me off that people can abuse it to get the airline to force other eople to move.

That's certainly one way of looking at it, but one could also say that the airlines are taking advantage too -- they are knowingly selling seat positions without bothering to certify in advance whether or not the passenger will be using a carseat. As the law puts the onus on the airline to accomodate the seat if the berth is paid for, the proper thing to do would be to determine the carseat status before selling the berth. As they don't bother to ask, they can't use that as grounds for refusal.

The real-life reality is that it comes down to a forced relocation maybe in one case out of 10,000 passengers; so while life isn't fair, this hardly constitutes a common or widespread abuse. 99% of the time when given advance notice, the airline CAN provide a seat pair without discommoding another passenger in any way. (The only time that I've really seen it become any kind of recurring problem is when the airline is trying to accomodate passengers who were on flights cancelled for weather; and even then, pretty much only on MCO routes.)

 

[DebbieB]

The gate agent can move seats without asking a passenger to accomodate a special need. It happened to me on Delta last month. I was in the second row of coach in the aisle seat. When I was boarding, a slip popped out of the machine and the gate agent said my seat was changed. I was moved up one row to the bulkhead row, still an aisle. I don't like the bulkhead row because you can't put your purse under the seat in front of you and the seat itself is narrower because of the tray in the side. But I wasn't given a choice. When I got on the plane, I saw the reason was a lady with oxygen had that seat and she could not have the oxygen tank on the floor in the bulkhead row. No big deal really, it was only a 2 hour flight. That's not the first time I got a surprise when my boarding pass was scanned on Delta, one time I got moved from the front of coach to the back.

Delta does not charge for seat assignments so that is not an issue in this case. I'm sure it will be worked out. Very few adults want to be seated next to a 3 year old that isn't theirs.

 

[jnadelman]

Does everyone really think my comment was serious? It was meant to put a little humor into this situation. We flew a year ago and right up to about 4 days before the flight we weren't sitting with our kids (8 and 5). After calling and begging and pleading, we were finally able to get at least my wife to sit with my 5 year old, and my 8 year old was still alone right up until check in (at which point we got his changed to be with me).

And our situation was even worse. We were AirTran and we had paid for seats. But then they changed the plane type on us (which they can do) and as a result we were no longer together. They said it was my fault for not fully reviewing the "change" e-mail they sent me. I just saw the times and I "accepted" the change. They said if I had called within a few days of the e-mail I would have been able to get seats together, but it was now "too late". Like I said, after who knows how many phone calls we got it all worked out. And I can't really hold this against AirTran because any airline can and will do the same thing. They change planes and people get seats changed. If you don't pay attention to your reservation, it can happen to you.

I think it is a horrible that the airlines will allow for a 3 year old to sit alone. But that is the way it is. We won't fly southwest because there are no seat assignments. And after our last incident, we won't purchase any flights unless we can book seats at least 2 and 2 so no kid is alone. And I check my reservation at least once or twice a week!

FYI - for those of you with 2 kids - they told us always book 2 and 2 and not 3 and 1. They say it is much easier for them to keep 2 together and if they change things on you, your odds are better that you will stay together.

 

[DebbieB]

Does everyone really think my comment was serious? It was meant to put a little humor into this situation.

You may think it was funny but those of us who are frequent travelers have probably seen someone trying to pull that stunt. It happened to me once and I just dug my heals in, I wasn't going to accomodate someone trying that. If she would have been nice about it, I would have moved.

 

[NotUrsula]

But, does it specify that the child/parent cannot be moved to a different flight that can accommodate such seating configuration?

AFAIK, the standard interpretation of the wording is that if the child AND the parent hold valid tickets for the flight, AND that there are enough seats available on that flight, that they cannot be refused passage ONLY because of the need to legally accomodate the carseat. (If the family can be refused boarding on some other valid grounds, then that is a different situation, naturally.)

Remember, in no case do the Conditions of Carriage of any US carrier guarantee ANY passenger accomodation in a particular seat position. Fees that supposedly let you choose still don't guarantee that. They can also make you change seats for safe operations reasons, such as balancing the load. AFAIK, all of them with refund any seat assignment fees if they have to force you to vacate your chosen seat, but that's the extent of what they owe you.

For example: from Airtran's current Conditions of Carriage:

RULES ON RECONFIRMATION OF RESERVATIONS, CHECK IN TIMES, AND REFUSAL TO CARRY
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]A. Confirmed Seats
A passenger with a valid confirmation number reflecting reservations for a specific flight and date on AirTran is considered confirmed unless the reservation was canceled due to one of the reasons indicated below.
B. Cancellation of Reservations
All reservations are subject to cancellation without notice:
1) If the passenger fails to fulfill the requirements of the fare type of that reservation.
2) If the passenger is not present at the boarding gate at least ten (10) minutes prior to original scheduled departure time of the flight.
3) If the passenger fails to occupy a reserved seat (for example, a no-show).
4) If such action is necessary to comply with any governmental regulation, or to comply with any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense, or whenever advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond the control of AirTran.
5) If AirTran refuses to transport the passenger for any of the reasons stated above, the passenger will not be eligible for denied boarding compensation. Cancellation may apply to all segments in the itinerary.
6) AirTran does not guarantee to provide any particular seat on the aircraft.

and ...

​

3) Compensation of Involuntary Denied Boarding
If a passenger is denied boarding involuntarily, the passenger is entitled to a payment of "denied boarding compensation" from the airline unless:
1. The passenger has not fully complied with the airline's ticketing, check-in, and reconfirmation requirements; or, the passenger is not acceptable for transportation under the airline's usual rules and practices.
2. The passenger is denied boarding because the flight is canceled.
3. The passenger is denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons.
4. The airline offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in the passenger’s ticket at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund).
5. The airline is able to place the passenger on another flight or flights that are planned to reach the passenger’s final destination within one (1) hour of the scheduled arrival of his/her original flight.

[emphasis mine]

I suspect that if someone wrote to complain after the fact, the extent of the offered compensation would be an offer of some mileage points and an apology letter with the usual, "unfortunately, in some situations, compliance with safety regulations may occasionally inconvenience passengers ..." phrase somewhere in it.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[NotUrsula]

And our situation was even worse. We were AirTran and we had paid for seats. But then they changed the plane type on us (which they can do) and as a result we were no longer together. They said it was my fault for not fully reviewing the "change" e-mail they sent me. I just saw the times and I "accepted" the change. They said if I had called within a few days of the e-mail I would have been able to get seats together, but it was now "too late". Like I said, after who knows how many phone calls we got it all worked out. And I can't really hold this against AirTran because any airline can and will do the same thing. They change planes and people get seats changed. If you don't pay attention to your reservation, it can happen to you.

I think it is a horrible that the airlines will allow for a 3 year old to sit alone. But that is the way it is. We won't fly southwest because there are no seat assignments. And after our last incident, we won't purchase any flights unless we can book seats at least 2 and 2 so no kid is alone. And I check my reservation at least once or twice a week!

The bolded part is ironic. Because SWA does not assign seats but allows children under age 5 to board in a priority position, SWA is in effect the only US airline that can nearly guarantee not to separate you from a child that young. On SWA you are in final control of where you sit; not the airline: as long as you proactively handle checkin and take your boarding position at the gate within suggested time limits, it simply won't happen. (SWA will even try to hold rows open for expected connecting families to prevent this; they value their turn times too much to deliberately waste time futzing around with asking passengers to move when simply having an FA block the last row during boarding will prevent the problem.)

 

[Diegosmom]

Horrible experience with Delta...but this was in Mexico booked well in advance and had seats together day we were leaving they had major problems lost our whole plane or something. I picked the wrong line. And they had DS2 listed as an adult so they split us up. Spend 20 min trying to get us seats next to each other. Finally sent me to the gate (actually escorted) when I get there they try to refuse me then they tell me I have to hold DS as a lap child. Ummmm no you made me pay for a seat for him unless you want to give me my money back. They are holding up the entire plane for us. Finally FA asks two people if one of them will more...and they moved him to first class so no complaints by this 20 year old.

Then we connect thru detroit, well with everything going in inCancun I didnt realize that I didnt get boarding passing for connection. I am told I have to go to the gate. By the time someone is there they have already given up our seats. She hand writes me tix but somehow they got reassigned again. So once on the plane I try to switch. They are only 2 person per row. DS had window and I had aisle in row in front. The man that I try to switch with got totally pissed off...not sure why he went aisle to aisle. FA told him that was fine he didnt have to switch but he would be sitting next to my 2 year old the entire flight. The man grumbled under his breath and took my seat.

First and last time I will fly Delta

 

[kjs1976]

This debate cracks me up!

I just never know who will react or post when I post now days on here!

Anyway...called Delta, she sees the same things I see online and advised me to check in early and get to gate early and they will be able to help me. I'm not worried. What happens, will happen. We'll just go in very nice and cute and hope our politeness and charm will get us somewhere. I did think of bribes, whoever posted that earlier, and will be prepared to offer something monitary and be sweet and polite about it.

We are seated together on the first leg and we will deal with this too. Just a 3 hour flight. No stress. Plus, some of you all are cracking me up!

PS- didn't know DD had to sit in window seat in a car seat. I think we were asked to do this last year, but when she was 2, we had her seated in between both of us and that was on a Delta flight.

 

[crashbb]

This debate cracks me up!

I just never know who will react or post when I post now days on here!

Anyway...called Delta, she sees the same things I see online and advised me to check in early and get to gate early and they will be able to help me. I'm not worried. What happens, will happen. We'll just go in very nice and cute and hope our politeness and charm will get us somewhere. I did think of bribes, whoever posted that earlier, and will be prepared to offer something monitary and be sweet and polite about it.

We are seated together on the first leg and we will deal with this too. Just a 3 hour flight. No stress. Plus, some of you all are cracking me up!

PS- didn't know DD had to sit in window seat in a car seat. I think we were asked to do this last year, but when she was 2, we had her seated in between both of us and that was on a Delta flight.

I'd also keep checking online. Especially at the 72 hour mark (which is when frequent flyers may be upgraded). Even if you cannot snag a pair of seats, at least getting better singletons (and the frequent flyers are more likely to have aisle seats near the front) will make your life easier (much easier to ask someone to move to a "good" seat).

Also, with the middle seats in a row of three, you may find that a couple is traveling and puposefully left the middle seat empty (in the hopes that no one would sit there). When they find someone the middle seat, these people often offer to trade it for the window or aisle (so that they are sitting beside each other). This would give you the aisle or the window, which (as noted above) is easier to trade.

If I'm asked nicely, I'm very likely to move and, I think, most people are.

 

[ccgirl]

The bolded part is ironic. Because SWA does not assign seats but allows children under age 5 to board in a priority position, SWA is in effect the only US airline that can nearly guarantee not to separate you from a child that young. On SWA you are in final control of where you sit; not the airline: as long as you proactively handle checkin and take your boarding position at the gate within suggested time limits, it simply won't happen. (SWA will even try to hold rows open for expected connecting families to prevent this; they value their turn times too much to deliberately waste time futzing around with asking passengers to move when simply having an FA block the last row during boarding will prevent the problem.)

I have flown SW very often. You cannot guarantee family boarding will even happen. Often on flights to/from MCO I have heard it cancelled as 80% of the plane would family board. Out of PVD they will only family board under 4 and they frequently decrease the age to 2. So, stating it simply won't happen is incorrect. Especially with connecting flights when you are getting on a plane that already has people on it. In my experience SW, more than any other airline, spends more time playing musical chairs trying to get families sit together. The others, i.e. Airtran...."You want to sit next to your child, you need to pay. Take your seat please." So sad SW bought Airtran.

As far as a carseat. They will let you put it in the middle if parents/guardians are on both sides. If the window seat remains empty, they will also let you place the carseat in the middle. Other than that, they request you place the seat in the window to make it easier for passengers to get in/out of the row.

 

[NotUrsula]

PS- didn't know DD had to sit in window seat in a car seat. I think we were asked to do this last year, but when she was 2, we had her seated in between both of us and that was on a Delta flight.

IME, Delta is actually the only US carrier that interprets the rule that way and allows carseats in middle seats -- if the person seated at the window is in the same party and is willing to take the risk of having to climb over the seat in an emergency evacuation.

The FAA rule says that the positioning of the CRS "must not impede passenger egress", and most of the airlines choose to interpret that in their policies as "cannot be between another passenger and the nearest aisle, unless that other passenger is also in a carseat." It is just easier to make one universal rule than to allow exceptions based on the passengers' relationships to one another.

(Of course, in this case the position of the carseat itself is moot; the important issue is the requirement of getting a second contiguous seat in the same row for the accompanying adult.)

As to the cracking up part, you might want to reserve judgement until you've gotten the seat assignments; this situation really can be a tremendous hassle, because airline personnel tend to like to pass the buck on it. I've had it happen, and it is a major (and embarassing) PITA. The phone reservation agent will tell you that the ticket agent at the airport will fix it, and the ticket agent will give you a security document and tell you that the gate agent will fix it, and the gate agent will give you BP's for your scattered single seats and tell you that the FA will fix it -- and the FA will be pissed off that it didn't get fixed sooner and got dumped on her, forcing her to have to offer bribes and deal with the wrath of the captain when pushback gets delayed because she can't get everyone seated on time.

 

[crashbb]

I
As far as a carseat. They will let you put it in the middle if parents/guardians are on both sides. If the window seat remains empty, they will also let you place the carseat in the middle. Other than that, they request you place the seat in the window to make it easier for passengers to get in/out of the row.

Or if it is two aisle plane, the car seat can so in the middle seat of the centre section, since the other seats still have easy aisle access.

 

[NotUrsula]

I have flown SW very often. You cannot guarantee family boarding will even happen. Often on flights to/from MCO I have heard it cancelled as 80% of the plane would family board. Out of PVD they will only family board under 4 and they frequently decrease the age to 2. So, stating it simply won't happen is incorrect. Especially with connecting flights when you are getting on a plane that already has people on it. In my experience SW, more than any other airline, spends more time playing musical chairs trying to get families sit together. The others, i.e. Airtran...."You want to sit next to your child, you need to pay. Take your seat please." So sad SW bought Airtran.

So have I, and I stand by what I said. It isn't an absolute guarantee, but the legacy carriers are FAR more likely to separate a young child from a parent because they (and their passengers) are so wedded to the value of seat assignments. My chlidren have flown hundreds of segments with their father or me both here and abroad, and the only US-based carrier that has NEVER separated us is SWA. It is quite common in "focus" cities such as MDW or BWI to see FA's blocking the last row of seats so as to prevent the musical chairs scenario -- sometimes they have to be elsewhere and doing other things, but IME they seem to try to do this whenever the aircraft already has a 50+% load when it arrives.

No matter what the situation is with general "family boarding", families using carseats will always be boarded when there are still legal spaces for them, SWA has to do that because of their policy on seat assignment, and it also makes practical sense to protect the turn times.

 

[dntd]

If a child needs his/her parent( uder the age of 6) they should get atleast 1 parent. But of course a 3 year old w/o the parents really doesn't make for good company so that alone would want to make someone move. Last time I flew I had to move from my assigned seat because my of my kids being placed near a door, some one had to move for us....BTW y son gets sick when he feels casterphobic and can't even handle car rides over 1/2 hour w/o throwing up. I really don't think other passangers would like to hear him throw up in those free puke bags, but we never fly with hi due to that( yes they are put there because people sometimes puke on flights not because they coulld be sick).

 

[goofy4tink]

I understand the whole issue about having parents seated with their young children...I get it, I really do. And I also get the whole carseat thing. BUT...how the heck can an airline, in all good conscience, move people out of the seats they chose and paid for, in order to accomodate someone who knowingly bought a seat that they knew they weren't going to use but get it changed later?? The seats purchased were much lower priced, because there were single, middle seats. Personally I don't feel it's fair to have those who paid a higher fare have to give up the seats they chose in order to accomodate someone who bought at the last minute.

 

[Jestocost]

BUT...how the heck can an airline, in all good conscience, move people out of the seats they chose and paid for, in order to accomodate someone who knowingly bought a seat that they knew they weren't going to use but get it changed later?

Airline's are corporations and completely lacking in consciences. Individual employees may have consciences, but if it's a choice between keeping their conscience or complying with a federal regulation, they will choose the latter if push comes to shove.

 

[aubriee]

I understand the whole issue about having parents seated with their young children...I get it, I really do. And I also get the whole carseat thing. BUT...how the heck can an airline, in all good conscience, move people out of the seats they chose and paid for, in order to accomodate someone who knowingly bought a seat that they knew they weren't going to use but get it changed later?? The seats purchased were much lower priced, because there were single, middle seats. Personally I don't feel it's fair to have those who paid a higher fare have to give up the seats they chose in order to accomodate someone who bought at the last minute.

I agree! Call me a Witch with a capital B, but I have major claustrophobic issues and hate flying anyway, so I always choose to pay for an aisle seat close to the front on Air Tran. Those seats are the more expensive $15.00 seats and I buy my tickets early to make sure I get that seat I need. For our flight in three weeks my husband and I are paying $60.00 in just seat fees ($15.00 each way for two people). No way am I moving for some family that chose not to do the same and definitely no way am I moving to a center or window seat. I fly solo quite a bit, but still pay for those $15.00 aisle seats close to the front because those are the seats I need. Even flying solo, I'm still not moving. I check my flights several times a week to make sure the aircraft hasn't been changed, in case I have to call to get my seat reassigned. If flying with family, we pay for all of our seats and only choose a flight that has a group of open seats available close to the front of the plane. Why should we give those seats up to some family who didn't pay for their seats, because it wasn't important enough that they sit together to do so? Instead they just expect everybody else to accomodate them. If a FA tries to move me, she as well as the family that tries to displace me is going to get an earful. As long as it's an aisle seat fairly close to the front of the plane I'd be OK, but if they try to force me to give up my $15.00 aisle seat for a $6.00 middle seat in the back of the plane I'll be letting my displeasure known and also let the FA know they may have to deal with a panic attack in midair as I can't do seats in the back of the plane. Sorry but I purchase the seats I need and feel families should do the same. Having a kid doesn't trump everyone else.

 

[Lewisc]

Remember, in no case do the Conditions of Carriage of any US carrier guarantee ANY passenger accomodation in a particular seat position. Fees that supposedly let you choose still don't guarantee that. They can also make you change seats for safe operations reasons, such as balancing the load. AFAIK, all of them with refund any seat assignment fees if they have to force you to vacate your chosen seat, but that's the extent of what they owe you.

FWIW A passenger with a service animal, who gives the airline at least 24 hours notice, is entitled to a bulkhead seat. Elite passengers with bulkhead seats can and do get moved.