Hear me out on this...

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have the issue of getting tangled up in religion.

I do think it helps to think of everyone in terms of being human, not in terms of religious right and wrong. There are many, many religions across the globe. We are all human. We all want to be loved and valued, we all want to be happy and safe, we all want to live productive lives. The majority of things about gay and straight people are the same. I didn't choose to be straight, I just am. My gay friends didn't choose to be gay, they just are. We can't explain it, they can't explain it, it just is.

Straight folks don't often stop and ask WHY we are straight, because being straight is a social "norm". Perhaps "majority" is a better term. The majority of folks are straight so we don't bother to dissect it.

Many of us were brought up in homes where our parents taught us that there was something wrong or shameful about being gay. I don't recall my parents ever saying much about it, but if there are gay or lesbian relatives in my family I do not know about them!

InfernoGirl & Boy, I hope that you are able to find answers to your questions, or at least find some peace in leaving the questions unanswered. The folks on this board are amazing. I have many more amazing gay and lesbian friends "in real life". They are the most loyal friends I have. I hope that you will make some friends here, too.

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

Ok Liz, don't make me send a Gideon Bible with the next postcard!

 

[OrlandoMike]

Viki!

Where are you?

 

[hematite153]

It's funny, because I view my rights to marriage as a religious issue and just keep wondering why the politicians are so concerned.

I'd be happy to have a distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage as long as it was actually enacted as such rather than as something where some people get one and others get the other. What I mean is, there are the legal aspects of marriage that are VERY important and I think that their is some validity to having the government control that. But, there shouldn't be any religious, moral, or emotional judgments attached to this--it's just about the legalities. Religious marriage on the other hand is about a covenant with God, and I don't understand why people who don't believe in God would want one. (Note: this is aimed primarily at all those straight people whose first visit to a church is for their wedding.)

My marriage was/is primarily religious. My DW and I were both raised in Christian households (in fact, I'm a PK--preacher's kid) and we both believe that it is our duty, as Christians, to celebrate the gifts that God gave us. Personally, the gift of love and commitment is one of the best. Our marriage is a covenant between us and God and is the natural result of following God's call.

Since Viki hasn't been around a lot lately, I'm going to quote from the Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short's (the then moderator of the United Church of Canada) speaking notes for a parliamentary breakfast in 2005.

"...I am here to offer our support and to offer a contribution to your thinking as a human being. I bring this contribution from The United Church of Canada....

In the Christian tradition value is created by God. God does not love because human creatures have value. Rather, it is in loving human creatures that God gives them value. To speak of values is to speak of gifts of God—not rules, not levers in a debate....

The current debate on marriage appears to turn on an axis of human rights versus religious faith. From our perspective this is a false dichotomy.

Human rights: All people have the right to love and be loved. All people have the right to give themselves to a love that will demand their life in such a way as to change them and transform them into something, someone God alone can see. The question of who has access to marriage does involve human rights.

But there is an irony. Marriage, the thing itself, is not about rights. Marriage is an act of faith—faith in the transforming power of love, which is the greatest of the gifts. Marriage, the thing itself, is nothing less than contributing your life, including your individual rights, to a common quest in covenant with another human being in the bond of love, "for better or for worse, for richer and for poorer, in sickness and in health, in joy and in sorrow…."

This is losing life in order to find it. This is giving life in order to be received by love. This is a great and profound act of faith. Faith is rather like character, it can never be possessed, only enacted.

To speak of marriage rights without speaking of faith is false in our tradition. To speak of faith without rights is equally false in our tradition. The whole faith versus rights axis is a false one. It fails to do justice to the substance of Christian marriage and it fails to do justice to those willing to give their lives to transformation by the power of love....

We are on a learning path. We understand the Christian tradition to be a learning tradition. We learn from science, we learn from scripture and from art and from the public forum of politics and from other faiths. We acknowledge, for example, that there was a time when Christian tradition supported slavery. You could find slavery in the Bible where it seemed to be accepted as a normal way of life. But we are thankful that it was Christian tradition, a learning Christian tradition, that eventually inspired the end of slavery on the grounds that all human creatures are created in the image of God. You can find that in the Bible, too. And by the way, there may have been Christian inspiration but it was political resolve and legislative action that ended the slave trade.

One of the things we've learned is that the Christian tradition of justice not only cares for the weak and the persecuted and the marginalized. It's more than that. Christian tradition learns from the weak and the persecuted and the marginalized. Christian tradition learns its best self among the dispossessed and knows Christ to be in the midst of those cast aside.

It is our tradition that leads us to ask government to grant a welcome to all who seek to enter the honourable and cherished estates of civil society. We ask government to present an open door to all people in civil marriage regardless of orientation or colour (which was once a barrier too). We ask an open door to all people in civil marriage regardless of orientation or faith (another barrier at one time). When we ask government to present an open door to all Canadians it is not to go against our tradition, it is to fulfill it...."

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

Ok Liz, don't make me send a Gideon Bible with the next postcard!

You can send it, and I will even send you a thank you note, but you can't make me read it and you sure can't make me believe it.
But no matter what, I'll still be your friend.

 

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

I was just kidding. I respect your beliefs just as I am sure that you respect mine. I couldn't resist though.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I was just kidding. I respect your beliefs just as I am sure that you respect mine. I couldn't resist though.

See how well that works! Now if we could just get everyone else to play as nicely as we do we'd be in good shape!

I knew you were kidding.

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Whew. This is some kinda thread to come home to! LOL.

Not going to get into a huge debate about the G-d thing. There is no biblical debate.

The bible says to stone people, to sell people into slavery, to sacrifice animals... interesting isn't it.

If one accepts the position that one G-d created all, then that selfsame G-d created ALL. Get it? ALL.

 

[Viki]

Viki!

Where are you?

I was actually in bed by 9 PM last night... but I'm here now

First of all I'm with Luther on this ...marriage is a civil institution (first use of the Law in theological tech speak). This is obvious in that people of every and no faith from around the world can marry, and they can do so with various understandings of what that means including opposite sex, same sex, multiple partners. (This is only confused by the Roman Church which went ahead and made it a sacrament). Protestants all agree on this. Marriage is not a sacrament. It is a civil institution whose arrangement may or may not be "blessed" (just as animals might be blessed) by God through some religious ritual. But at heart it's the way that each society decides to arrange its basic unit of civilization and rewards partners in various ways (with tax codes and child rights and such).

As such it is right and proper for any culture to debate who gets to marry, that is who gets those benefits handed out by the state that are incentive to establish and maintain its foundation. On those grounds, its perfectly proper to argue over whether same sex marriages offer the culture the same benefits as opposite sex marriages (a point seldom raised in the debate but right on the money).

As to a religious perspective on partnerships, scripture provides a multitude of possibilities for how humans can be in covenant with each other in a way that blesses them and culture. Here I think of Adam and Eve, but I also think of Jesus and his beloved disciple (John), Ruth and Naomi, Paul and his many churches (certainly a lot of passion there!), and so on and so forth.

As to sex, the Genesis story is clear that it was established by God as a way of promoting both the blessings and the challenges of living in a significant intimate relationship with at least one human being, something human beings of all orientations and genders are more or less up to.

Did I do OK, Mike, haven't even finished my coffee or wiped the sleepers from my eyes!

 

[OrlandoMike]

Ya did good!

So good you can add one of those international creamers to your coffee today!

 

[Viki]

Ya did good!

So good you can add one of those international creamers to your coffee today!

Oh, Lord, I hate those things... sugar, sugar, sugar. I drink it black, baby! (But, hey, I could add some scotch???)

 

[OrlandoMike]

Oh, Lord, I hate those things... sugar, sugar, sugar. I drink it black, baby! (But, hey, I could add some scotch???)

Geesh, only if it's single malt!

 

[TuckandStuiesMom]

Let me ask these and I will see if you still want me around. I am a christian and with that up bringing and what I have learned/lectured, I was always taught it was wrong. I was even shown the passage, whats the reply on that?

This one goes along with the one above and its about marriage. If in the bible it says ****(what word can I use thats PC?)is wrong against God then how can you guys/gals get married under god? Marriage can be looked at two ways, legal binding agreement or a spritual bonding under gods word/faith.

Wow I jsut reread that and almost deleted it but those were on tv jsut know so those are my first questions?

Here is a funny (thought-provoking though too) response posted years ago by the Humanists of Utah (gotta love THAT name) Upshot is: there is a lot of "stuff" in the bible (Elements were written by men and so reflect the bias and thinking of their times).

Personally, I have to believe (my bias / my thinking here ) that if God really does see us as his/her children, he/she's gotta be far more worried right now about us killing each other, little children going to bed hungry (let alone dying of starvation), and our beautiful planet dying before his/her eyes, than who we sleep with...

Why Can’t I Own a Canadian?​

October 2002​

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses
advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said
that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination
according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any
circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a
east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It’s funny, as
well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I
have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend
the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other
specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how
do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?


I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have
a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does
my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments
made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also
tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go
to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -
Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family
affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident
you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is
eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,

Jim

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Love that letter!

 

[TammieLand]

Hey I forgot I'm going to a birthday party next month - one of those booze cruise thingys -
and it's going to have a group called The Radiators - from your neck of the woods - ever heard of them.

You, my friend, are in for a TREAT! They are a New Orleans original and funky as funk gets.

I ran into them at the Jazz Fest a couple of weeks ago -

<---a little jealous..but I get to see them often..

 

[TammieLand]

As far as the religion issue - I'd rather talk about the Radiators...<G>

Although, as mentioned before, my soon to be daughter in law is a daughter of a southern bapist minister and we love them and they love us and that's all that matters.


Now, where's that new CD of Papa John....

 

[TuckandStuiesMom]

As far as the religion issue - I'd rather talk about the Radiators...<G>
Now, where's that new CD of Papa John....

Papa John! Haven't thought of him in years... Here's one fer Memory lane fer you: Dancin' to Clifton Chenier @ the Oak Bar in Lafayette. ...many, many years ago

 

[TammieLand]

Papa John! Haven't thought of him in years... Here's one fer Memory lane fer you: Dancin' to Clifton Chenier @ the Oak Bar in Lafayette. ...many, many years ago

Talk about!! Now, that is a memory -

 

[InfernoGirl]

ok, how about this one...
How did you know you were gay?
So its more than a s3x thing, more of a love feeling toward the same sex? That is one I just dont get.

 

[OrlandoMike]

It's pretty easy.

Your attracted to people of the same sex. Nothing more than that.

When did most of us "figure it out"?

Puberty, the same time you started feeling that weird way when you saw people that you were attracted to.