Harry Potter Complete Book Spoiler Thread

[MickeyMonstersMom]

Here's another little theory I want to add to the mix.

The setup in the cave where the locket is protected at the bottom of the potion. In order to get to the locket it takes two people, one has to drink the potion and as they become weaker and weaker the other has to keep giving it to them until it is all used up...

So if the first person in the scenario was Regulus Black and he brought his servant, lets say his house elf (Kreacher) with him to assist him (so he could command him to keep feeding him the potion) - that means Kreacher is keeping a very big secret from Harry. Kreacher may have helped steal the Horcrux locket and bring it back to Grimmauld place.

I've read this one elsewhere as well (me, a messageboard junkie? no!), but with Kreacher drinking the potion - the reasoning comes from the line in HBP that Slughorn was having all his wine tasted by house-elves first in case of poison. Does that mean house-elves aren't affected by such potions the way wizards or witches are? We do know that butterbeer has more of an effect, thanks to poor little Winky. So maybe JKR is trying to hint at Kreacher being the potion drinker for Regulus.

 

[snoopy]

I'm very late to the party, having just finished the book last night. Some random idiot on the beach last week walked up to me and asked me how I felt about Dumbledore dying......seeing how I was clearly in the middle of the book, it was all I could do to not haul off and punch him. I couldn't believe I had survived almost 2 weeks on the DIS without opening up this thread and yet this random person ruined the ending for me. Suffice to say, I was still VERY surprised by the ending.

Overall, I loved the book. I was a little disappointed that we didn't find out more about some things: James and Lily's parents, the significance of Lily's eyes, Pettigrew's debt to Harry, Dudley's dementor experience, the reason some wizards become ghosts, what Petunia knows. I was majorly disappointed we didn't see more of Neville and Lupin, two of my favorite characters.

On the other hand, I absolutely loved that the kids finally got some snogging action. I was starting to wonder why this boarding school was so different than any school I'd ever been to. Loved the H/G romance, although I was a little annoyed that Harry had to play Peter Parker in the end, and I think that Ginny should have told him she was sticking by him no matter what.

My theory on Dumbledore's death is that Dumbledore knew that he was going to die either on that specific date, or in a very short time frame. Possibly the injury to his hand and arm was a visible sign of greater damage that he realized was terminal. Dumbledore wanted something useful for the Order to come from his death. Getting Snape in a better position to bring Voldimort down would certainly count as something useful. I think the argument between Dumbledore and Snape was due to Dumbledore saying, "If I'm going to die anyway, I'd rather it be at your hand." Given the situation in the tower, it looks rather like Dumbledore would have died at the hands of the other Death Eaters if it had not been Snape. I also have the notion that one of the Horocruxes could have been the actual potion that DD drank, in doing so he sacrificed his own life. No way do I believe Snape is all evil. I also think Snape is ultimately going to redeem himself, in as big a way as he appeared evil in this book. My best guess is that this will mean sacrificing his own life for Harry's sake. I'm so eager to know what the portrait of Dumbledore is going to contribute to all this, in the way of information. Also, don't forget that Sirius died with that two-way mirror in his possesion. I think Harry will also hear from Sirius, possibly concerning his brother. Oh, another disappointment, I wanted Harry to inherit Fawkes. Will Fawkes reappear, and maybe guide Harry in times of peril?

Ahh, thats all for now. I'm wondering if people are still reading this thread, now that I'm so late to the party but still eager to discuss it. 2 years seems so long from now, I just hope she doesn't extend it beyond that.

 

[snoopy]

Oh and one more thing, while its on my mind. DS10 had great difficulty with the ending of this book. He finished it last week and talked to his Dad about it at length, who had also finished it. Some of my cousins who we were vacationing with thought that perhaps the book was too heavy for pre-teens. What do you think?

I guess I sort of feel that the whole series deals with themes of redemption, necessity and sacrifice... and in killng off beloved characters, JKR is also teaching children to be prepared for the reality and inevitablity of death. A hard lesson, for sure, but for those kids about 10 and up a good lesson nonetheless.

 

[Tinks]

Oh and one more thing, while its on my mind. DS10 had great difficulty with the ending of this book. He finished it last week and talked to his Dad about it at length, who had also finished it. Some of my cousins who we were vacationing with thought that perhaps the book was too heavy for pre-teens. What do you think?

Well, when I was that age we were reading and watching the movie of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Talk about a complex story and complex characters! Aslan sacrifices himself to save Edmund (not a particularly nice boy) because Aslan knows that this sacrifice has a deeper magic than the Witch realizes. Very similar themes to the HP novels. (and Christianity)

So, no, I think it is not too much for pre-teens to handle, but I do think it's "deep"--so to speak.

 

[ophie]

Not sure if you guys have seen this...

http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/

 

[ohanafamily]

Hey all,

Snoopy, I think part of the reason these books are so successful is that they treat children in a realistic view. Part of the reality is that people are complex. A similar thing happened in the 60's with a TV series called "Star Trek". They treated the audience as adults- not a stupid mass. As far as CS Lewis and Chrinicles of Narnia... Well, the Christian faith is a lot more obvious, but the characters are a lot less complex. It is writthen to a pre-teen audience (JMHO)

OK, what about this theory... Could the whole trip to the cave have been a set-up. I mean, the locket was not the Horcrux, DD knew all of the traps... He quickly reasoned that he had to drink the potion...Say what you will, but Snape was able to make up his own strong potions at a young age...He made Harry Promise to follow his instructions... The potion could have been one that fains death and would absorb the Avada Kadabra curse. That could have been another reason he kept wanting Snape- to make sure it was that curse.
One other thing I just realized.. Fawkes' nome... Guy Fawkes, Burning effigees... Hmmm... just a thought...Bombing Parliment.....

I also wonder if the terror war will be brought more into light. Books traditionally have some comment on current affairs.....

JMHO

 

[snoopy]

Not sure if you guys have seen this...

http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/

Wow, is all I can say. Very interesting reading so far, thanks.

ohanafamily, I am wondering what was in that potion too, that is a very interesting theory that it would shield him from the AK curse.

 

[SueM in MN]

Just got done re-reading book three and came across something fairly interesting. Definatley made me think. At the end of PoA, Harry was feeling badly for letting Peter Pettigrew live and this is what dumbledore told him.

DD- "you did a very noble thing, in saving Pettigrew's life."

HP- "But if he helps Voldemort back to power -!"

DD- "Pettigrew owers his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt......When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter."

HP- "I don't weant a connection with Pettigrew!" said Harry. "He betrayed my parents!"

DD- "This is magic at its deeptest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life."

I finished the HBP last week, but have not had time until today to finish reading this thread and post. You saved me having to look up something I was thinking about.
Pettigrew's debt to Harry is going to figure into the next book. I wonder if LV knows about this debt or not and what exactly the bond, debt and the deep magic between the 2 wizards are?
And, what happens if one of the wizards breaks the bond by doing something that causes the death of the other? I think we are going to find out more about that magic in the next book.

There is someone else who had a bond with another wizard because of a life saving incident. Snape's life was saved by James Potter while they were in school together (when James rescued Snape after Sirius's prank of sending him into Whomping Willow toward the Shrieking Shack after Lupin - recounted in POA). That debt was not repayed (there are comments in some of the other books that Snape owed his life to Harry's father and implying that was one of the reasons Snape "helped" Harry, even though he hated James.)
In book 6, we learn that Snape overheard the first part of the prophesy, but did not know who it referred to. He also only heard the first part of the prophesy (so he and LV don't know the part about both not being able to remain alive).

Page 549 of HBP, DD is talking to Harry after Harry found out Snape overheard the Prophesy:
"Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldmort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophesy. Naturally he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing -which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew; that they were your mother and father -"
Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter.
"He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Have you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?"
"You have no idea the remourse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophesy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned-"
THEN LATER ON THE PAGE:
"......how can you be sure Snape's on our side?"
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I'm am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely."

I think the thing DD was trying to make up his mind about was whether to tell Harry about Sirius's prank that led to James needing to save Snape's life. There is no indication in the books of whether DD knows that Harry already knows this (along with the information about James and Sirius bullying Snape while they were classmates). So DD, had to decide whether to tell Harry bad things about dead people Harry loved.

When Snape gave the prophesy information to LV, it was just impersonal information he could use to get more power and prestige with LV. When he found out who was affected by it, it became personal. He had inadvertantly betrayed the wizard (whether he liked him or not) he had a special bond with and Lily, who he probably did love (that love thing again). At any rate, Lily was one of the few classmates Snape probably had who was not mean to him and actually stood up for him from time to time. Snape had to make a choice whether to continue down LV's path or choose the other path (the continuing theme of people's choices making them who they are). I think that Snape chose at that point to follow the good path, but if he openly did it, he would be killed by LV. By becoming a double agent, he could preserve his life and still do what was good.

That also explains another reason Snape had to hate Sirius. Until it was proved that Peter Petigrew was alive, Snape thought that Sirius had been the one who gave LV the Potter's location. So not only was Sirius someone who made Snape's school years miserable, it was also his "fault" that the Potters were killed. Even though in the end, Sirius didn't directly betray them, he indirectly betrayed them by making Peter Petigrew the secret keeper at the last minute. Even Sirius felt responsible for their deaths because of this. That "betrayal" would be enough for Snape to continue to hate him.

The fact that DD knew all about this, and that Snape had told him all this information, would be enough that DD would trust Snape, but he would not be likely to confide this information to the others. It would not necessarily help the others to trust Snape and it would be telling negative information about Sirius and James.

 

[ToriLammy]

When Snape gave the prophesy information to LV, it was just impersonal information to him that was going to give him more power and prestige with LV. When he found out who was affected by it, it became personal. He had inadvertantly betrayed the wizard (whether he liked him or not) he had a special bond with and Lily, who he probably did love (that love thing again). At any rate, Lily was one of the few classmates Snape probably had who was not mean to him and actually stood up for him from time to time.

JK keeps mentioning how Harry has Lilly's eyes - says it's important and we'll find out why in 7 - I think it has to do with Snape. I think there will be a moment between the Harry and Snape when we learn something important about Lilly and it'll start with Snape saying "you have your mother's eyes". Could be that is the moment we finally find out why DD trusted Snape so much

 

[phillybeth]

I had a thought- anyone else hear read Mists of Avalon? It's a book based on the Arthurian Legends told from the 'losing' side, those that worhipped the Goddess- the druids. According to the book there was a sacred druid regalia, given by the goddess- a cup or chalice, a spear, a sword, and a stone. Does this correspond to the artifacts of the four founders?
We already know that Gryffindor left a sword, Hufflepuff left a cup, and Slytherin left a stone (in the ring). Could the fourth be a spear from Rowena Ravenclaw? Have we already seen a spear perhaps in the books? Now I need to go back and re-read them...

 

[themelbob1190]

does anybody here know who "Grindelwald" is??? Did I like totally miss something????? In the interview with Emerson and Melissa, they made a pretty big deal about him, and how he links into the main plot, and JKR refused to talk about it. Who is he?? Thanks.

 

[ToriLammy]

Grindelwald - A Dark Wizard defeated by Dumbledore in 1945.

Okay did more research - it's mentioned on a Chocolate Frog card in Book 1.

That's pretty much all the mention of Grindelwald.

 

[themelbob1190]

Grindelwald - A Dark Wizard defeated by Dumbledore in 1945.

Thanks. What book is that found in?

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks. What book is that found in?

It's in the first book on pages 102 and 103; when Harry gets his first Chocolate Frog card.

 

[Figment22]

I had a thought- anyone else hear read Mists of Avalon? It's a book based on the Arthurian Legends told from the 'losing' side, those that worhipped the Goddess- the druids. According to the book there was a sacred druid regalia, given by the goddess- a cup or chalice, a spear, a sword, and a stone. Does this correspond to the artifacts of the four founders?
We already know that Gryffindor left a sword, Hufflepuff left a cup, and Slytherin left a stone (in the ring). Could the fourth be a spear from Rowena Ravenclaw? Have we already seen a spear perhaps in the books? Now I need to go back and re-read them...

Interesting theory. JKR uses a lot of legend in the books from names to places, etc. I like this idea. I have no idea if a spear has been mentioned anywhere either but I've been planning to re-read the first five anyway. Here's another new reason!

 

[SueM in MN]

Someone had wondered what the potion in the cave was and the question made me think of a potion that is mentioned somewhere that we were not given much detail about. I found it in the first book.
In the first Potions class, Snape starts out with a speech on page 137 that includes these words:

"I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."

He asks Harry a bunch of questions, including (on page 137)

"What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" and "Where would you look if I told you to find me a bezoar?"

On page 138, Snape reveals the answer (after Harry suggests he ask Hermione since she seems to know the answer):

"Sit down," he snapped at Hermione. "For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of the Living Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and it will save you from most poisons."

We know the bezoar becomes important in the 6th book when Harry uses one to save Ron. Is the Draught of the Living Death also mentioned in book one because it is important later on? Is DD's new portrait sleeping on page 626 of book 6 because his body is sleeping (or was it just sleeping so that JKRowling wanted to show him, but not have any chance for conversation with him.) ?
And, DD hints of some sort of "appearance of death" on page 591 when he is trying to convince Malfoy that if he comes over to the "good" side, he and his family can be be saved from death:

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but LV probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother.....

Also, someone pointed out that after the Avada Kedavra curse, DD did fall off the tower (which would have killed him), but no one actually saw him fall all the way, so we don't know for sure. The book says, on page 596

...and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.

And, when Harry finally does see DD's body on the ground, here's the description from page 608:

Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping. Harry reached out, straightened the half moon spectacles upon the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth with his own sleeve.

I don't necessarily think DD is alive, but these things are lind of thought provoking.

 

[AmyA]

Sue, those are AWESOME theories and an especially great find with the comments Snape made in the very first potions class ever!! I have been thinking that I need to reread the whole series (even though I just did in June ) and pay close attention to the most "inconsequential" details.

I have to say, I'll admit that JKR has her (minor, IMO) weaknesses as an author when it comes to grammar and repetitive dialogue, but her storytelling ability, plot cohesion, continuity, and her amazing talent for making something that is crucially important seem completely inconsequential are truly exceptional.

 

[snoopy]

I have to say, I'll admit that JKR has her (minor, IMO) weaknesses as an author when it comes to grammar and repetitive dialogue, but her storytelling ability, plot cohesion, continuity, and her amazing talent for making something that is crucially important seem completely inconsequential are truly exceptional.

JKR is such a master plotter. The way little details from the early books that were seemingly insigificant at the time so often show up again and become important keys to the mystery amazes me. They were clearly planned to be so, but it's never obvious of heavy handed. I'm continually impressed by that aspect of her genius.

Apperating for now to go to the movies, I'll be back to this thread later on to think more on some of these theories.

 

[Feralpeg]

I also think there's more going on with Snape. I think it's a strong possibility that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to follow through with their plan and kill him. I also felt like Snape was trying to stop Harry from doing Unforgivable curses because he was protecting him, not just defending himself. His responses of "No, Harry" seemed more reprimanding than taunting. Such an interesting ending! And such a long wait ahead!!

My thoughts exactly. I think we will find that Snape is actually a good guy.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue, those are AWESOME theories and an especially great find with the comments Snape made in the very first potions class ever!! I have been thinking that I need to reread the whole series (even though I just did in June ) and pay close attention to the most "inconsequential" details.

Thanks. I started re-reading the whole series out loud to my youngest DD this Spring. (She can't read them herself because of her cerebral pasly, but she loves to have them read to her). Reading them out loud made me notice some things I hadn't when I read them silently. She and I are starting book 4 now.
Also, when GOF and OOP came out, I read them very fast and then handed them over to my oldest DD. This time, we bought our own copies. Since she and her boyfriend didn't have a lot of time for reading, I tried to read slowly, so I would be able to discuss with them and not give any spoilers. Doing that really helped me absorb and think about the book, so I could connect it up with things form the other books.

I just finished reading the Dumbledore is not dead site that ophie posted. They didn't have any of the ideas I posted, but they had a lot of things I hadn't thought of that complimented what I found.