Harry Potter Complete Book Spoiler Thread

[Stitch 03]

Sorry if I repeat something that has already been discussed. I just discovered this thread and there are too many pages for me to catch up with at once.

Some thoughts:

Why I think Snape is still good -

- The whole death of Dumbledore just seemed to convenient and I think it was a setup.
- Out of all the times Dumbledore left the school, the Deatheaters picked an awfully convenient time to attack. Harry happens to be with Dumbledore and he puts himself into a weakened state.
- I do not think Snape could kill Dumbledore if he wanted to. Snape only succeeded because Dumbledore was weak.
- Dumbledore would do anything to protect his students. He knew that if Malfoy attempts to kill him then Malfoy would be lost to Voldemort. (Malfoy has taken steps to the side of evil, but as a result of Snape's actions has not taken the final step).
- In Snape and Malfoy's fleeing from the castle, Snape only deflects Harry's attacks and even gives him advice. But he never counterattacks.
- Harry told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore not only seemed to be unconcerned, but even possibly knew about it.
- The reason Harry was told to follow Dumbledore's every direction in the trip to the cave is because if he didn't then the plan would fail. In otherwords, Snape killing Dumbledore was planned.
- Why did Snape knock out Flitwick (?) in his dungeon? There was no need to other then to give the illusion of wrongdoing.
- Why was Harry immobloized by Dumbledore? For protection. Or so he would not interfere.

Here is the big brain twister (again, sorry if someone has already mentioned this). I am not saying this will prove to be the case, but it would not surprise me as I believe the pieces are there...


What if Dumbledore is still alive... and Snape is dead.

Snape offers his right arm in order to perform the unbreakable vow. Next hing we know, Dumbledore shows up with a 'dead' right arm that never heals. We are talking about a world where Polyjuice (?) can be made. And we have a situation with one of the best wizards and a great potion master.

I also am not at all happy with the explanation that Dumbledore gave regarding the injury to his arm. Very anti-climatic for something that was given such a high profile throughout the book.

Well that is it for now.

 

[MickeyMonstersMom]

Really? Do you have a source?

I think I said the same thing about Snape's redemption earlier in this thread; however, I was misquoting JKR. Here are her actual words, from an interview with WBUR radio (I have no idea where that is) on October 12, 1999.

What about Snape?
JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I’ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I’m not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I’d rather people read it.

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

Again, that can read either way: she was stunned because someone figured Snape out, or because she could never see Snape as redeemable. It's interesting, though, to note that she said we'd understand her statement after Book 7 rather than 6 - seems to show that we would not have been able to tell from HBP - as JKR no doubt intended.

 

[ophie]

An interviewer from a while ago (well before HBP) had noted that there was a "redemptive" quality about Snape, and JKR responded that she was "stunned" - they would understand why she was stunned after they'd read Book 7, but that was all she was going to say.

Here it is. Your use of "redemptive" allowed me to find it.

Interviewer: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

Interviewer: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

(From J.K. Rowling interview transcript, The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999)

I agree that it could be interpreted in multiple ways (as with most of her "answers"). But it definitely doesn't offer proof that he will redeem himself. She has also said repeatedly that she doesn't understand why people like Snape.

edit: okay well, I see you went and found it also.

 

[MickeyMonstersMom]

Wow! You were a LOT faster than I was! (Probably more efficient, too - I was quite distracted and kept reading through the full text of every interview I looked at.)

 

[ohanafamily]

Hey, I see you found the reference, I was actually misquoting MickeyMonstersMom from around p8 of this thread...


You are probably righy about the wands being tied together by the Faulkes connection. I would like to ee harry get himself a phoenix though...

A pet Dragon named Norbert is much more likely.....

 

[MickeyMonstersMom]

Hmmm, I was just rereading the rest of that interview segment. JKR says "He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However..." That would imply that Snape is not pleasant BUT... there is something about him that should counteract that unpleasantness. Since I really want to believe there's more to Snape than simple DE-all-along, I'm going to choose to find that comment very encouraging.

 

[Stitch 03]

Hmmm, I was just rereading the rest of that interview segment. JKR says "He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However..." That would imply that Snape is not pleasant BUT... there is something about him that should counteract that unpleasantness. Since I really want to believe there's more to Snape than simple DE-all-along, I'm going to choose to find that comment very encouraging.

So eventhough Snape is not a nice person, does not necessarily mean he is evil. Pretty deep for a children's book. I do agree though that this is probably a correct conclusion and also believe that Snape is going to turn out not to be a bad guy.

I am also wondering if the same can be said for Draco. Not a nice person, but not evil either. In fact, the only reason he was probably attempting to kill Dumbledore is due to the threat against his parents. Sure he boasted about being a Deatheater and may even want to be one. But like Snape cannot bring himself to do what is necessary to truly be one of Voldemort's followers (i.e. cause the death of another individual). This is probably why Snape agreed to take the vow. Not because he is evil, but wanted to prevent Draco from making the same mistake he did (it is hinted at in the book that Snape was indirectly responsible for the death of Harry's parents).

Sad story for Draco when you think of it. He was essentially sentenced to death. Voldemort sent him on a mission he could not fulfill in order to punish his father. I think the last book will bring Draco and Snape some redemption. Eventhough we may choose to still not like them as characters.

Again, this is heavy stuff. For a children's book these are some awfully compex characters.

 

[MickeyMonstersMom]

So eventhough Snape is not a nice person, does not necessarily mean he is evil. Pretty deep for a children's book.

Was it said in the books, or in an interview, that the world isn't divided simply between The Good Guys and Death Eaters? The comment referenced Fudge and/or Umbridge, as I recall. Snape (as I see him, anyway) would make an excellent example of this as well.

Yes, this is very deep. I love the way JKR doesn't water this down, and kids have obviously responded to that.

As far as Draco goes, I bet he joined the Death Eaters proudly, in part because he's been indoctrinated with his father's ideology since birth, and also in retaliation against Harry and Dumbledore, and with absolutely no clue about what it really means to be a DE. I see him being all excited to be treated like a man and getting to be part of this whole thing - and Voldemort taking complete advantage of this (and, just for insurance, adding fear for Draco's own life and that of his mother) to punish Lucius. I doubt LV had any confidence in Draco pulling it off. I look forward to seeing how the events on the Astronomy tower affect Draco in Book 7. I don't foresee redemption as I do with Snape; I do think Draco will feel remorse and guilt, but be unable to change the path he's on.

 

[ophie]

Just because a kid is the main character doesn't mean it's only a children's book.

Besides, the grey area between good and evil has been talked about since book 1. My favorite line though is the one referenced above: "the world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters." Sirius said that about Umbridge. That being said, the wizarding world obviously isn't divided into Death Eaters and Order members either. Snape may not be on either side. He could easily be out for himself.

 

[Figment22]

With all the Phoenix talk on the previous page, it reminded me of something I was thinking at the end of HBP. Something small and not in any way essential to the plot. In the hospital wing, where Bill Weasley is being tended to and Madam Pomfrey says she's tried everything to heal the werewolf inflicted wounds on Bill's face, I immediately thought "Phoenix tears!" If only Fawkes could have hung around a while longer...

 

[Tanuki]

Here's another little theory I want to add to the mix.

The setup in the cave where the locket is protected at the bottom of the potion. In order to get to the locket it takes two people, one has to drink the potion and as they become weaker and weaker the other has to keep giving it to them until it is all used up.

Now there may be some other way of getting the potion away from the locket but if R.A.B. came up with the same idea that Dumbledore used there would have to be two people involved in stealing the locket Horcrux from the cave the first time.

So if the first person in the scenario was Regulus Black and he brought his servant, lets say his house elf (Kreacher) with him to assist him (so he could command him to keep feeding him the potion) - that means Kreacher is keeping a very big secret from Harry. Kreacher may have helped steal the Horcrux locket and bring it back to Grimmauld place.

 

[Rajah]

Okay, I haven't finished this whole thread, but I had to put my thoughts down. I just finished the book tonight.

1) I don't think Dumbledore is dead. The clues are all there. He *wanted* Harry to see the confrontation but not be able to act. He needed a witness that was on the Order's side. And he was telling Harry what was going on -- "The best way to avoid someone who wants to kill you is to make them think you're dead". AND he said Snape was working with Malfoy on *his* orders and helping Malfoy on *his* orders. He's not dead, folks. At least I don't think so. But I think the only two to know this are Dumbledore and Snape. And what I just read on page one of this thread about the HBP redeeming himself -- best way to do that would be to prove that Dumbledore isn't really dead after all.

2) I'm afraid that the snake isn't the last Horcrux (or however you spell it). Just thought of this, but I'm afraid *Harry* is that one. That would also fit with the prophesy... Didn't it read something along the lines that neither can die while the one lives? I think that in order to end this, Harry's going to have to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort.

3) I, too, was *very* surprised at who the HBP was, though it should have been obvious. And why name a book after Snape unless he's going to play a more important role than turning traitor?

I did have one problem with this book, and that's that I felt it was rushed. Was I the only one to notice several spelling errors (not to be confused with alternate spellings) and homonyms (sp?), and there were a few points where it seemed entire paragraphs were just missing. Despite that, though, I thought this was a much easier read than #5 -- I still want to strangle Umbridge from the one time I read #5.

 

[Rajah]

I'm sorry - my FAVORITE line in the entire book. Page 578, Ch 26:

"I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. "I am with you."

Ditto!

 

[Rajah]

OMG - GREAT thought! (Even harry said - no worries, he'll be out in a year) But why NOW...why give Snape the DA position NOW? Because this second war had started? Because Voldemort was back? (he was back LAST year...)

Because he knew of the Unbreakable Vow that Snape did. He knew Snape would have to "kill" him, and that would not allow him to remain in Hogwarts after that.

 

[Rajah]

Add another one that doesn't really believe that Dumbledore is dead. I just can't help but think that Fawkes would of become Harry's if he no longer had his owner.

On on lighter note I just loved it when Slughorn refered Ron as Rupert on pg. 485.

I had that same thought about Fawkes

 

[Rajah]

Does anyone else think that Harry could be the Horcrux that relates to Gryffindor? Horcruxes can be a living being. There is the locket from Slytherin and the cup from Hufflepuff. Dumbledore mentioned the Gryffindor sword and said that it couldn't be tampered with. Harry's family home was in Godric's Hollow. Perhaps his family was related to Godric Gryffindor? Harry can speak Parseltongue and the Sorting Hat thought about putting him in Slytherin. Dumbledore mentioned to Harry that these things are true because Voldemort transferred a bit of himself to Harry on the night Harry was attacked as a baby. Perhaps that bit of himself is part of his soul and in killing Lily and James Voldemort made Harry a horcrux.

Of course if this is true then it would go along with those who say that both Harry and Voldemort will die at the end of the series.

 

[Rajah]

I agree with the poster above who said that Dumbledore's death did not sit right. It lacks depth, IYKWIM. On another messageboard out there, someone has made a very convincing case for the idea that Dumbledore and Snape both knew of Draco's mission and had arranged for Snape to kill Dumbledore if necessary to save Draco's life and soul - Voldemort would have killed Draco outright had he failed to kill Dumbledore, and Draco would have crossed the line in killing another human being. Even Snape's snarl on the tower can in this case be interpreted as frustration that this had to play out this way, and Dumbledore's pleading was to remind Snape that this was the only way. After all, Snape did not try to kill or take Harry with them afterward, as well.

I could live with this - and it would make for some very interesting resolution in HP7.

Very interesting theory. I could buy that, too, though I don't want to.

 

[Rajah]

Was anyone else surprised the Vernon and family weren't featured much in book 6? I thought we'd learn more about Petunia's wizzarding knowledge...

I think that may be why Harry has to return one last time.

 

[Rajah]

Harry cannot be a Hrocrux - why would Voldemort keep trying to kill Harry if part of his soul was in there? Not to mention that anyone else could have kill Harry in the last 16 years.

No, the Horcruxes are well hidden and protected by many dark enchantments - which is not something you can say about Harry.

Ahh, good point. Unless if the creater of the horucrux destroys the horucrux he re-absorbs the "spirit shard" so to speak?

 

[Rajah]

4) I absolutely believe that we will find out Voldemort is related to Harry in some way. Rowling has mentioned too many times how much Harry looks like Voldemort...sure you can explain some of their connections b/c of their initial battle, BUT remember: they also say Harry looks JUST like his father! We have never heard anything about Harry's father's family, other then that he's supposedly pure blood. Rowling sure spent ALOT of time going into Voldemorts family background for that to not be leading us somewhere important. Now Harry says in the end he is going to return to where he was born, and see his parent's graves...something's going to happen there in regards to that, I can feel it

You know.... I think you may be right.