Guess what they are planning on replacing the fireworks and parade with?

[roymccoy]

I agree with your premise that it might be best to wait to plan a trip until the "dust settles" but the problem is that the dust doesn't look like it's going to settle anytime soon. We canceled a Jan. 2001 trip because I thought the same thing that you are saying now, that it would be better after the dust settled. Well, it's actually worse now! Even shorter hours and even more cutbacks.

The adage to use here may not be "wait until the dust settles" but "get while the gettin' is good"
If the cuts at the parks and resorts don't stop, this January may look GOOD looking back from 2004 or 2005. Funny thing, that slippery slope.

Roy

 

[Bob O]

I agree with AV!!!
I might not be happy about a park closing one day a week to save money but if the company would be honest and upfront and not always feel the need to lie to its guests to coverup the mistakes they have made. We would like some honesty from the company and not the BS they try to feed us like they did about EE for example.
And disney should try to increase hours to get guests to stay longer in the day and spend money. Other parks have shown that if you increase the quality of your product and give the guests what they consider to be a great deal for their money they will come. Why not trying to reduce admission fees on slow days as a way to entice more guests or have extra fireworks and parades on slow days to keep guests longer or offer free soda on slow days. They dont ever try to give the guests anything extra to induce them to stay longer or come in the first place but feel the need to always reduce what is offered.

 

[Safari Steve]

pretty broad generalizations... Never and Always are almost always never correct.

The initial rumor involved a much larger expenditure of budget as an alternative to *NOTHING*... Are we reacting to the actual events, or to perceptions generated vicariously through the opinions of others? What's with all the pitchforks and torches?


Btw, Roy... do you remember anything out of the ordinary happening between Jan 2001 and Summer 2002? Just a slippery slope entirely resulting from selfish execs? hmmm...

Oh, and as far as competitors go, does anyone have a problem with three of 9 major attractions in one park being closed at the same time during both the Christmas/New Year's AND Spring Break seasons? Does anyone recall the fact that 6pm closes for most days between Labor Day and Memorial day have been standard for years at that very same park?

Now THAT 's funny!

 

[PKS44]

Speaking of slippery slopes....
discounting is a slippery slope that I think Disney should avoid...start discounting and then folks expect discounts....make your product special...this is the part of the market in the past where Disney has thrived...if they want to get into discounting they have to cut their expenses...if they cut their expenses they have to put out a less distinct product...if they make a less distinct product they have to compete with a lot of others (carnivals, amusement parks, etc...) they cannot be the Disney we all know and love...They need to be the Neiman-marcus of theme parks, not the Wal-mart.

Paul

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

discounting is a slippery slope that I think Disney should avoid...start discounting and then folks expect discounts....make your product special...this is the part of the market in the past where Disney has thrived...

Before Ei$ner took control NOTHING was discounted!! EVER!!!

Disney even refused to pay travel agents!! And they NEVER paid to advertise!!!

You paid Disney prices which were a 'bit' more than average for a 'much-much-much' more than average experience!! And it NEVER went on sale!!!!

Pretty neat concept, ain't it?

 

[d-r]

OK. I was avoiding typing anything in here because I think y'all are wiggin - they have upped the hours in Sept. at the magic kingdom because they are trying to find ways to extend the hours during off season - whether it is alternating fireworks and parades during the week, or having a big character thing (and yeah, I'd be somewhere else if they did that), during the week, they are adding to the off season hours and I think that's a good thing. But anyway, I replied because I read Land Baron's post that there were never discounts before Eisner. Does Magic Kingdom Club not count? I have several old copies of Disney News that shows discounts on park tickets and lodging with magic kingdom club (and there were free memberships back then, so I'm not sure how its not a discount). Maybe you are only talking about publicized discount codes or something. Anyway, just a small point -

Willing to see what will happen,
DR

 

[Eeyore2U]

This is my impression of the the regulars of this board.

My friend Mr Pirate accurately stated.

Lastly, it's sad the way this board has turned away from practical dscussion, especially from my perspective (a guy who has in the past defended Eisner but now wishes he'd go). It'd be nice to discuss possibilities, both remote & realistic, but as long as Eisner's in charge most of you will just keep beating that drum...

This board should be renamed " The Vultures Waiting for Eisner's Carcass"

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Does Magic Kingdom Club not count?

Well, I think it depends on your point of view. But you are right. There was that. And I think there was a "discount' for AP renewals, but I'm honestly not sure.

The Magic Kingdom Club I discounted, only because EVERYONE I knew used it. It was a given. I knew NO ONE at all that didn't have access to one. But technically, you are right, it should count.

But I was referring to the room rates and any other incentive to "temporarily" boost sales. They never did it that I know of. And as a consumer that told me two things. First they had TREMENDOUS confidence in their product!! (Their product being "an experience" and NOT a plush toy and a hot dog!) and it also told me that their prices were pretty damned good in the first place if they didn't feel the need to play "used car salesman" with me, depending on how the market would swing.

But I did forget about the Magic Kingdom Club! And that was before Ei$ner destroyed that one too!!!

 

[Tik Tok]

Originally posted by d-r
they have upped the hours in Sept. at the magic kingdom because they are trying to find ways to extend the hours during off season - whether it is alternating fireworks and parades during the week, or having a big character thing (and yeah, I'd be somewhere else if they did that), during the week, they are adding to the off season hours and I think that's a good thing.

I was under the impression that if they decide to go with the character thing that they will still be closing the MK at 6pm, or earlier. Is that the case, or will they be extending hours either way??

 

[DisneyKidds]

So many pages read and I have very little to say, other than.............

I agree with the good Captain, er, I mean Pirate. Yeah, this thread is 5+ pages, but how much of that discussion is related to discussing the new entertainment idea, it's implementation, its effects, etc.? Not too many. This thread contains much of the same old rhetoric. The last few weeks have seen this board get progressively more negative. I, personally, will wait until I get to WDW to assess the entertainment that is offered and form my own opinions, rather than falling prey to all the Chicken Littles. Now, CL's, don't get your panties in a ruffle. I agree that there have been many bad Disney decisions - many things to sound the alarm over. However, when it gets so bad that the sirens sound over the rumored possibility of something different being tried when nobody knows what, when, or where......well, I think it gets a little carried away. JMO. I'll jump off my box now and practically discuss the original topic.

As to a new character whatever show......... I think it could have potential if it is anything like the thing from DL that AV described. Four stages that sit on Main St with characters that interact with the crowd in an oganized show/event. That could be great. One of the best parts of the Share a Dream parade is when the floats stop and the characters dance around with kids from the crowd. Our DD did this several times and it was an incredibly magical experience. If this new thing were an extended version of that type of character interaction I think people would be thrilled. However, if it was an unorganized meet and greet autograph melee with people jamming the streets with no organization and no element of SHOW - that would be a very bad thing. However, I think we all need to wait for a bit before we decree that the sky is falling with respect to this rumored event. Even once more info is available, most people probably need to wait and see for themselves before thay can really say yea or nea. Fact of the matter is that a Disney experience today is about a million times more magical than someone would think if all they did was read these boards. Yeah, the magic has tarnished. Yeah, there are some disappointments. Yeah, we need to keep a level head and some perspective. No Disney apoplogy. You can acknowledge the bad and the good, you can act on it, you can speak out about it, but you have to keep a sense of perspective.

One question I had, but think was answered, had to do with whether this new thing would truely be an addition. If the answer were yes I say the CL's were all completely nuts, that there was a rampant epidemic of Mad Chicken disease turning brains to mush. Of course added hours and entertainment would be a positive. Alas, it seem that is might not be the case. Scenario one - the good thing - would be for Disney to keep the existing entertainment they already have - the parades and fireworks on Friday and Saturday, and add this new thing on other days. Scenario two - the bad thing - is for Disney to replace the Friday and Saturday parades with this new thing and do nothing on the nights that they are already doing nothing on. That is no addition. That is swapping out tried and true, pure Disney, gotta have entertainment for something cheaper. I'll still wait to see it to evaluate it, but the MK simply wouldn't be the same without the nighttime parade and fireworks - even if we could only see them one or two nights a week (which completely sucks as it is).

I guess I had more to say than I thought .

ps. Baron, I have to ask you to make up your mind . You have stated so emphatically in the past in our discussions on Disney hotels that hey never ever offered any discount back in the day. Well, now it seems that they never ever offered any discoun, other than MKC. Well, which is it? No discounts? or discounts? It is totally irrelevant whether it was MKC that everyone knew about. A discount is a discount. Furthermore, it is completely wrong of you to assume that everyone knew about MKC discounts. I bet back in the day there weren't many more people who knew about MKC than there are people that know about other Disney discounts today. Heck, the USA today last week had an ad with a code that would get you AKL for $119. You see, you don't have to be an internet saavy, Mousesavers reading computer geek to get a discount today. So, what is the position on discounts back in the day, or will you only make a statement on that question that fits your argument on a particular thread ?

 

[Bob O]

The slippery slope started at wdw along time ago first with building parks that were full days parks from day one- MGM,then contiuned too reduced hours off operation, loss off EE among major cutbacks, not having the whole park open when the park opened and closing attractions prior to park closing as just a few examples. They have contiuned to make the experience at wdw less magical than it once was and have reduced the show aspect.If they wanted to make their product special they would have completed AK as a whole day park from day one w/BK and Asia open!! And wouldnt have put in PW and thre carny land they did do. Their concern isnt about making the product special but only how can they cutback and save money while keeping the diehards happy and seeing how much they will swallow before they stop coming.Thats the line they are worried about and not making sure they "wow" the guests like it was in the past.
The park has more than enough meet and greets be it in the staged areas's or when the charachters are roaming about.
But imho the parades have always been special and set disney apart from any other park, as well as the firework displays. If they would do anything they should increase the fireworks to what i saw at mvmcp where they set them off they totally surronded you and were the best display ive seen them put on. To me with disney's track record of late they deserve no benefit of doubt on anything, that trust needs to be regained and cant be accomplished by some pr gimmick!!

 

[Another Voice]

The big difference comes from the following sentence: “I, personally, will wait until I get to WDW to assess the entertainment that is offered and form my own opinions”. Now there are many Disney fans that have this attitude and it’s a perfectly acceptable position to take.

The issue is that there are many more regular guests that don’t have the luxury of spending money for a trip just to assess the entertainment. They want to know NOW if their trip is going to worth the money. The average guest will notice fewer hours than before, higher prices, fewer benefits for staying on property – not the mention the non-Disney travel hassles of flying these days. Something like a new show will only have a possible impact through word of mouth and tremendous marketing, and even then I feel it only a slim chance.

My question isn’t whether a Character Show is going to be good or not – it’s whether this kind of event is going to make a couple million people say “sure the park closes before dusk, but let’s go anyway”. At one point I think that many would have given Disney the benefit of the doubt. But the evidence is VERY clear that is no longer the case. Attendance at WDW from summer 2001 through California Adventure shows a substantial reluctance on the public’s part.

Again the goal is not to make the guests already on property feel better – IT’S TO GET MORE PEOPLE TO GO TO WDW. A Character Show isn’t going to do that. Tinkering about with minor changes or cheaper, less effective replacements for previous cuts are not an inducement for a family to drop five grand. And certainly closing parks for dark days and further cuts aren’t going to help. As the saying goes, “the first rule of holes is to stop digging”.

Yes, it’s nice they might try something new. Yes it’s nice that there’s a slim chance it could be an addition. Yes it’s nice more characters will be seen. But what would really by nice is to FIX THE PROBLEM.



P.S. - “The Vultures Waiting for Eisner's Carcass”. BBQ at my place.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

P.S. - “The Vultures Waiting for Eisner's Carcass”. BBQ at my place.

Count me in!!! I'll bring the beer!!!

 

[Bete]

I'm sorry but because of the past events on ee, e-nights, higher prices, etc. I don't believe this will work in our favor. The other non-Disney parks do alot less on parades and fireworks; so, Disney feels this is a cost they can eliminate. Of course, they can't cut us off completely it would look too bad; so, they do it with more charater meets.

I'm going at Christmas and next spring for the flower and garden show. I never saw either event after going there over a dozen times. Anyway, I'm very happy I'm doing it now. I do believe a year or so from now I won't recognize Disney World as I remember it. I can't wait until they get rid of Mr. Eisner and I hope it's soon.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
So many pages read and I have very little to say, other than.............

I agree with the good Captain, er, I mean Pirate. Yeah, this thread is 5+ pages, but how much of that discussion is related to discussing the new entertainment idea, it's implementation, its effects, etc.? Not too many. This thread contains much of the same old rhetoric.

Many people have said they think the "Character Mob" is a bad idea. They don't want it. They want fireworks, or a Nighttime parade.

Again...nighttime ending Fireworks = Good
Nighttime ending parade = Good
Longer Hours = Good
More Hours = Good

Running the Character Gauntlet at a early closing = BAD!BAD!BAD!

 

[Another Voice]

“…this would result in extended offseason hours, especially in Sept/Oct. and May”

Absolutely these would not be “extended” off season hours. At best it would be a simple restoration to previous levels. And the entire point of the developing the character show is to create an end-of-day event that does not require darkness so that the early closing can be kept.

Yes, some of the local management do understand their guests. But most of the people who control (and demand) the money do not.

 

[raidermatt]

A few things...

Yes, this experiment has resulted in increased hours for September, as compared to how they were originally set. HOWEVER, they are still 7.5% lower than last September (296 vs. 320).

Last I checked, October's hours hadn't been officially extended yet, but remember that they were a full 11% lower than 2001, which had already been reduced due to the legitimate effects of 9/11. It will take quite an extension just to get back to the already reduced levels of 2001.

I think AV has presented this very fairly, especially in his last couple of posts. Yes, the character bash would be an add, and yes, if hours are extended beyond their current schedules that's an add as well. But its only an add when you compare it to recent hours and schedules, which had already been hacked to the bone. And isn't it true that WDW relies heavily on guests who only visit every 2-3 years or more? Those guests won't be comparing to what was originally scheduled. They will be comparing to 1998-2000.

Of course, its very possible that since the cuts began in earnest around 1999, some of those guests won't be returning this year or next anyway, because their last visit provided reduced value....

With regard to park dark days, again, its one of those things where it depends what the baseline is. If I were told that three parks would close one day a week (say, AK on Tue, Epcot on Wed, and MGM on Thu), but hours would be extended at the other three parks on those days, I would probably consider that a plus. BUT ONLY WHEN COMPARED TO THE CURRENT SITUATION.

And while I don't agree with everything Bob and Roy say, I would have to admit that I would be suspicious of how long the extended hours at the other three parks would continue.

Closing a park IS a takeway, even if I can schedule around it. As AV and Baron point out frequently, its a reduction in options, and it increases crowd levels at the other remaining options. If that were not true, we could take it further and close three parks on the same day, since we could just visit the open park that day. Surely we can all agree that would be a takeaway. Well, the same concept applies to closing one park, its just to not as great a degree.

 

[Another Voice]

The average guest does not care about budget battles with Burbank.

The average guest does not care about minor replacements prentending to be major additions.

The average guest does not care about “some is better than nothing”.

The average guest does not care about what’s realistic due to corporate politics.

All the average guest cares about is the serious decline in the value for their vacation dollar.

All the excuses, rationalizations and apologists in the world will not convince a single one of those individuals to drop the cash to visits WDW until that issue is corrected.

 

[raidermatt]

Yes, these "adds" would not restore hours to pre-199whatever levels. In a best case scenario they would.

True, but they (so far) don't even restore them to POST 9/11 levels.

However, they do restore some hours and that is better than none being restored.

True, it is, and I agree.

We've used baseball analogies before, so here's another one. In my view, Disney has made a consious decision to let the quality of the team they put on the field diminish. They have let talented free agents leave in favor of cheaper players without upward potential. Yes, its still a strong team, but it has slipped. (And more importantly, WDW attendance is proving that many guests think the team is not that strong anymore).

Now, with this move, its looks like they will make a small upgrade. They've let things slip at several key positions, and now they are bringing in a new player who is a little better left fielder than the guy they had stuck out there. That's nice, but their still much weaker than they were in the past at this position, and there is still the slippage in other areas. They had an MVP caliber shortstop, and then replaced him with a solid, but unspectaculer player. Now, they are bringing in a slightly better player, but this guy will never even sniff the MVP award, let alone actually win one.

So, I'll give a little golf clap for the slight upgrade. But I'm still forced to point out that this doesn't put the team where it was, or where it should be. They are still weaker at several other positions.

Further, given the other areas that have been allowed to slip, I just can't let this one minor upgrade make me think that all other areas of slippage have stopped, let alone will be improved.

Remember, Matt, after 9-11 cuts, many posters cried out that NONE of those cuts would be restored. Slowly but surely many such as the Riverside boats, restaurants closed, etc. have been returned.

But Scoop, it doesn't matter to me what many posters thought. I'm honestly just trying to look at the facts. Yes, many cuts were returned. But some have not, and clearly a HUGE one is hours. And what's worse, not only are they not returning, they are slipping FURTHER. Meanwhile, attendance disappoints even lowered expectations.

Disney maybe throwing their guests a bone with this one, but the Dog is HUNGRY, and its going to take more than a bone to keep him from heading to somebody else's yard.

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, I don't think the Average Man is trying to say that every Disney manager or executive is clueless when it comes to acheiving long-term guest satisfaction. I know I'm not saying that. I'm sure there are quite a few well-intending individuals who understand what truly has made Disney so successful.

But to AV's point (or AM, whatever...), most people don't know what the ratio of "good" to "bad" is in the executive ranks. All they care about is what happens on their vacation. What are the hours? What is the entertainment schedule? What does it cost?

Its great that there are some in management who realize that guests need to be getting more value than they are getting now, and by not providing more they are only hurting themselves. I applaud them for having a good understanding of their business and what makes it (and their guests) tick.

But again, there is very little evidence to suggest that this is any kind of real trend. I hope I am wrong, and that a trend to increase value does materialize. Even if its a slow upward trend, up is good.

Right now, however, there is still far more evidence that suggests this is nothing more than an anomaly.