"Going Columbine" - please stop using this phrase

[*NikkiBell*]

...if it is even warranted.

Exactly.

 

[k5jm]

The speech police will demand an apology. Not a very warm welcome for the new podcaster.

Luckily, for us, the speech police are not in editorial control of the podcast.

 

[k5jm]

Exactly.

 

[clombardi]

Wow. I encourage my fifth grade students to disagree in a respectful way without trying to belittle the person who has an opposing viewpoint. I certainly would be disappointed in them if they resorted to name calling.

I have now remembered why I stopped reading the DISboards. Thanks for the reminder. Have a blessed day!

 

[keri125]

On July 9th 2009, my Dad, Richard Klose, died after being hit by a car 100 yards from his house.

If you have known anyone that has died in this way, you are not surprised to find that this is often part of television shows and movies.

It's rare that I turn on the TV and don't see someone hit by a car. I realize that I am more aware of this than most. It's more personal.

And worse, this is often treated with great humor and after being run down, the victim gets up and brushes himself or herself off and carries on.

My Dad didn't get up.

I would guess that there have more fatalities due to automobile accidents than there have been to school, mall or post office shootings, yet
there is no outcry to stop this from being shown on TV and in the movies. There is no post stating that this may be hurtful to a great many people. Nothing. Yet it happens every day, but it's not usually part of a 24 hour news cycle...so you don't have to deal with it. And thank the heavens that you don't.

My point in telling you this is not to look for sympathy.

It's to make you realize that you too, may have laughed or watched something that is truly hurtful and devastating to someone else...without ever knowing it or doing anything about it.

I'm sure there are MANY more examples. You may say or do something without thinking that may hurt someone else. Do you mean it to be hurtful....of course not. It's just a part of life.

“Nobody has the right to not be offended. That right doesn't exist in any declaration I have ever read. If you are offended it is your problem, and frankly lots of things offend lots of people." Salman Rushdie

Kevin, first, let me say that I am so sorry to hear about your dad. I understand. My ex-husband, my son's father, died of a sudden cardiac arrest two years ago, when my son was 7. It was amazing how sensitive I became to the number of scenes on TV and in the movies where someone clutches their chest and drops to the ground, played for laughs, especially when my son was watching.

However, I don't think anyone is saying that they have never said or done anything that has hurt someone else's feelings or been insensitive. I think what the original poster was trying to do was to bring awareness to the fact that "going Columbine" can be a hurtful phrase and as a society, we should really try to make the effort to not use that phrase. For me, awareness is a good thing. When I do inadvertently say something hurtful and insensitive, my first thought is to apologize and make note. My first thought is not to tell that person to "grow some balls" (as mentioned upthread) or scoff and tell them they shouldn't be so sensitive or get offended, which, quite frankly, is what some of these replies seem to be implying.

I am a little shocked at some of the hypocrisy being displayed here. Again, I remember a podcast not too long ago where Pete was talking about how hurtful certain words we use as a synonym for "stupid" can be, and asking people to think twice about how those words are perceived by others before using them. I'm not the biggest fan of using the Rushdie quote as a general guide for how to act in society... if you are writing books that are perceived as classics and challenging ways of thinking for millions of people worldwide, sure, go ahead and write and don't worry about who you are offending (although he sure did have to go into hiding for a long time), but if you are living your life day-to-day, don't use it as an excuse to say whatever you want without worrying about how it might affect someone else. As I said earlier, I don't want to live in that kind of society. I prefer a society where, for the most part, we look out for and nurture each other.

"Handle them carefully, for words have more power than atom bombs." -Pearl Strachan

 

[k5jm]

There is a difference between name calling and using a metaphor.

I think we should all quote "Frozen" and "Let it go..."

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

There is a difference between name calling and using a metaphor.

I think we should all quote "Frozen" and "Let it go..."

I think the poster was referring to the phrase "speech police" as the name calling.

 

[k5jm]

I think the poster was referring to the phrase "speech police" as the name calling.

I was not referring to that post, but the one below it. "Speech Police" is a generality and I do not believe the poster that originally used it was referring to an individual, but that too is more of a metaphor than "name calling."

 

[PainInIL]

I think Kevin nailed it.

Pretty much anything you say is going to offend someone. Whether you like it or not this is really a truism: tradgedy + time = humor. The only variable is time. For some people that is longer then others.

 

[DisneyKevin]

Kevin, first, let me say that I am so sorry to hear about your dad. I understand. My ex-husband, my son's father, died of a sudden cardiac arrest two years ago, when my son was 7. It was amazing how sensitive I became to the number of scenes on TV and in the movies where someone clutches their chest and drops to the ground, played for laughs, especially when my son was watching.

However, I don't think anyone is saying that they have never said or done anything that has hurt someone else's feelings or been insensitive. I think what the original poster was trying to do was to bring awareness to the fact that "going Columbine" can be a hurtful phrase and as a society, we should really try to make the effort to not use that phrase. For me, awareness is a good thing. When I do inadvertently say something hurtful and insensitive, my first thought is to apologize and make note. My first thought is not to tell that person to "grow some balls" (as mentioned upthread) or scoff and tell them they shouldn't be so sensitive or get offended, which, quite frankly, is what some of these replies seem to be implying.

I am a little shocked at some of the hypocrisy being displayed here. Again, I remember a podcast not too long ago where Pete was talking about how hurtful certain words we use as a synonym for "stupid" can be, and asking people to think twice about how those words are perceived by others before using them. I'm not the biggest fan of using the Rushdie quote as a general guide for how to act in society... if you are writing books that are perceived as classics and challenging ways of thinking for millions of people worldwide, sure, go ahead and write and don't worry about who you are offending (although he sure did have to go into hiding for a long time), but if you are living your life day-to-day, don't use it as an excuse to say whatever you want without worrying about how it might affect someone else. As I said earlier, I don't want to live in that kind of society. I prefer a society where, for the most part, we look out for and nurture each other.

"Handle them carefully, for words have more power than atom bombs." -Pearl Strachan

I think my point has been missed here.

There are things which are part of everyday life (car accidents, heart attacks, shootings, the list goes on) that will leave people that have experienced then with raw nerves and emotions. While I hope that no one has to deal with these things...I feel that in the course of a lifetime, it or something similar is inevitable.

Car accidents, shooting, heart attacks can be funny to those without personal experience. The difference is that I don't hear or see anyone suggesting, requesting or demanding an apology for offending those that don't see the humor.

As for not finding Salman Rushdie to be quotable, to each his own, but your reaction has sort of proven his point. He had to go into hiding because someone was so offended by his written words that an official order to have him killed was issued.

I find the quote to fit perfectly. Maybe others will sit better...

"Every day we have plenty of opportunities to get angry, stressed or offended. But what you're doing when you indulge these negative emotions is giving something outside yourself power over your happiness. You can choose to not let little things upset you." Joel Osteen

"If I had a large amount of money, I should found a hospital for those whose grip upon the world is so tenuous that they can be severely offended by words and phrases yet remain unoffended by the injustice, violence and oppression that howls daily." Stephen Fry

"Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house." Fran Lebowitz (this happens to be my favorite)

I would never suggest that anyone "grow a pair", but I would ask where we draw the line when there are clearly things that others find equally offensive.

We also need to keep in mind that there are things said in malice that deserve apologies. I'm not sure this is the case in this situation.

 

[jcb]

As someone who essentially is in the business of offending people for a living, I've always thought the measure of being offended should be the speaker's motive.

Most folks we run into on a daily basis do not want to be offensive. I don't know JeniLynn but when she mentioned she was NDM number number, I recalled her well-written posts from a while back and she sure doesn't seem to me to be the type to purposely offend someone.

To be honest, I've never thought anyone on the podcast intended to offend anyone, well except, perhaps, those who say disabled individuals shouldn't be allowed in the theme parks but then some folks just need to be offended.

 

[k5jm]

"Mongo only pawn in game of life" -- Mongo

 

[keri125]

I would never suggest that anyone "grow a pair", but I would ask where we draw the line when there are clearly things that others find equally offensive.

Ironically, for me, I think this is a great discussion! I enjoy debating these types of issues and feel that there may not be a "right or wrong" answer. I guess this "conversation" intrigued me when I started reading the other posts talking about whether the OP was "right" or "wrong" in how she felt. (Can I use any more quotes in that sentence?!) I listened to the podcast and didn't even hear her use that phrase, so it obviously didn't jump out to me. However, I think I bristle a little when someone expresses an emotion and others jump on them that they are being too sensitive or their emotions are not valid. I think simply stating that one did not find that phrase offensive is fine... telling others that they need to not be so sensitive or they need to get over it is not. To me, that is where the line can be drawn.

I do think it is funny that on a family discussion board, one can get points for mentioning a funny Monty Python scene that has a fake made up Latin name (yes, it happened to me! LOL), but using a phrase that references the violent death of children is fine. Our society is so weird in how we view what is acceptable regarding family values. Anyhow, for the most part, I do believe this conversation was civil and I do enjoy that. I hope there is no hard feelings, Kevin! I love the boards and I love the podcast. And I really did love Jenilyn (not sure I spelled her name right?!). I think she is a great addition to the podcast team and I was not commenting on her, just the philosophical conversation regarding freedom of speech vs. political correctness.

 

[DisneyKevin]

Ironically, for me, I think this is a great discussion! I enjoy debating these types of issues and feel that there may not be a "right or wrong" answer. I guess this "conversation" intrigued me when I started reading the other posts talking about whether the OP was "right" or "wrong" in how she felt. (Can I use any more quotes in that sentence?!) I listened to the podcast and didn't even hear her use that phrase, so it obviously didn't jump out to me. However, I think I bristle a little when someone expresses an emotion and others jump on them that they are being too sensitive or their emotions are not valid. I think simply stating that one did not find that phrase offensive is fine... telling others that they need to not be so sensitive or they need to get over it is not. To me, that is where the line can be drawn.

I do think it is funny that on a family discussion board, one can get points for mentioning a funny Monty Python scene that has a fake made up Latin name (yes, it happened to me! LOL), but using a phrase that references the violent death of children is fine. Our society is so weird in how we view what is acceptable regarding family values. Anyhow, for the most part, I do believe this conversation was civil and I do enjoy that. I hope there is no hard feelings, Kevin! I love the boards and I love the podcast. And I really did love Jenilyn (not sure I spelled her name right?!). I think she is a great addition to the podcast team and I was not commenting on her, just the philosophical conversation regarding freedom of speech vs. political correctness.

Please believe me when I tell you there are no hard feelings.

I too, love a good discussion.

The "funny" thing is that I wasn't there and haven't even heard it.

I was just trying to voice a different side of the topic.

 

[AndyPok1]

I recently reached out to one of my oldest friends because I was starting to feel like a hypocrite. Those that know me, know that I have no line for jokes. I have always said that the moment I decide something is over the line is when I open myself up to allegations of racism/sexism/ageism/ableism/etc. I typically name my Fantasy teams after recent tragic world events (Current Baseball team name: Misplaced Malaysians).

With all of that said, I can't stand hate speech. I call out people for using n***er, or f***ot, etc. So I asked someone if I was a hypocrite for making a Declan Sullivan joke, yet not using offensive words, his response nailed it for me: "No, because that's discrimination based on ignorance and intolerance."

Comments about events, while absolutely hurtful to a certain group, are not rooted in bias and prejudice and hatred. That's what makes the other type despicable.

 

[GAN]

"Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house." Fran Lebowitz (this happens to be my favorite)

This is beautiful!

 

[WebmasterMaryJo]

I really appreciate this discussion, and think Keri has been so eloquent to voice some of my opinions.

I guess the way I think is that maybe people may not have a right to be offended, but once I know that words do offend - not their sensibilities, but more their hearts - I do my best to respect those feelings in my normal conversations and on our own little podcast.

I have had may discussions with my son, who believes that we mistakenly give more power to words than they warrant. He was telling me about a discussion with one of his more free-thinking friends (I mean, way out there free thinking). They were both talking about how words don't have power and so people shouldn't be offended when they hear 'sh**' or 'f***', etc. (btw, nice to know I don't have to give myself an infraction since bypassing the filter is ok on this board). They were both going on and on, and said the same thing about the word 'retarded' and other words. In their minds, people give too much credence to these words. When my son got to the 'n word,' his friend told him, "Woah, don't go there." His friend is African American. So, his friend who had been expounding the issue that we give too much power to words, and is African American, did have an issue with the 'n word'. (My son and this friend are very close, pretty much like brothers, so this discussion wouldn't impact their friendship - they have these discussions all the time.) My son asked his friend why he would have a problem with that word if all other words should be allowed in conversations. I didn't hear the response, but I found this very interesting.

We may say that people should 'grow a pair,' and that people shouldn't be offended, but our reality is that people do care, and sometimes things we say are hurtful. If I say something, and someone tells me that it's hurtful, I'm going to really think before using that word again. I know a lot of people that say something is retarded or stupid. Growing up, the word stupid was not allowed in our household. So, for years, and I'm 54 now, that word is shocking to me when people say something is stupid, and I almost never use it, although my kids do (they're already 25/26). Maybe that is because the words stupid and idiot were used to describe a mental state, like the word retarded is today. In time, those words have lost their meaning/shock value, and today retarded has replaced them in "words verboten." Until the DIS, I didn't know how hurtful that word was, but now that I do know that, I don't use it. Not that it means anything to me, but I don't want to hurt someone else unerringly. There are other words I can use to convey my meaning, and luckily I have the vocabulary to use them. I try to tell my family to use the same sensibilities.

I think words like 'going postal' and 'going columbine' fall under the same category. These words affect a lot of people, and those people are still alive, so I appreciate when people speak up and say when something is offensive. Is it PC? I don't know. Sometimes I think we categorize things as being PC when they really aren't.

 

[Jim Douglas]

I was actually more offended by the comments about Harlem. That said, I will continue to listen to the show, as it entertains and informs more than it offends. It has been offending, entertaining and informing me for years.

 

[USMelinUK]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread for the most part. It's nice to see a wide group of people discuss something as contentious as this so calmly and respectfully. I have to admit I never heard the phrase used in the podcast which I have watched a couple of times this week. (I always have it on a second time later in the week while doing housework. )

We have been talking a lot about words the last couple of months in my house, as I am bringing my English partner home in three weeks for the summer to stay with my family in Maine. I'm from the US as my "board name" suggests and have lived over here since 1999. I have become incredibly desensitised to words and phrases people use here on a daily basis that are unrecognizable and sometimes downright offensive to people in the states. The biggest one we've been working on is something I have never even heard anyone actually say at home that I can think of and is one letter off from twit. We've been trying to find an acceptable alternative but there's no exact translation if you will. I never say it because it just wouldn't come out of my mouth so to speak, and it's sounds different here as it rhymes with "sat", but it's used to mean someone who is kind of a jerk-idiot I guess. Like I said, no good translation. My family would get over it, but it would less than cool if say he said it at the supermarket.

It's nice to see different points of view expressed calmly as I said before. It's definitely given me food for thought.

Mel

 

[jcb]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread for the most part. It's nice to see a wide group of people discuss something as contentious as this so calmly and respectfully. I have to admit I never heard the phrase used in the podcast which I have watched a couple of times this week. (I always have it on a second time later in the week while doing housework. )

We have been talking a lot about words the last couple of months in my house, as I am bringing my English partner home in three weeks for the summer to stay with my family in Maine. I'm from the US as my "board name" suggests and have lived over here since 1999. I have become incredibly desensitised to words and phrases people use here on a daily basis that are unrecognizable and sometimes downright offensive to people in the states. The biggest one we've been working on is something I have never even heard anyone actually say at home that I can think of and is one letter off from twit. We've been trying to find an acceptable alternative but there's no exact translation if you will. I never say it because it just wouldn't come out of my mouth so to speak, and it's sounds different here as it rhymes with "sat", but it's used to mean someone who is kind of a jerk-idiot I guess. Like I said, no good translation. My family would get over it, but it would less than cool if say he said it at the supermarket.

It's nice to see different points of view expressed calmly as I said before. It's definitely given me food for thought.

Mel

So all these years later, I now understand the meaning of the Fawlty Towers sign.